Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread

    Curbina

    Thanks for the proposal, but I'm afraid that I don't have the expertise and suitable tools and environment for arranging&performing such an experiment. The usage of a tattoo-removal Nd:YAG pulsed laser (sourced from Chinese vendors on Ebay or elsewhere) is also an unproven way to cut costs; I don't have experience with them, although their main specifications seem ok.


    For best results a vacuum chamber with at least a window for the laser beam is required, but a very deep vacuum is not. It might be possible to perform the same measurements in the atmosphere, but I think air molecules would brake the high-energy particles emitted from the target material.


    Researchers or experimenters with small laboratories will likely already have most of the equipment and materials needed.



    Regarding vacuum by the way, in the latest paper it's pointed out:


    https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2021.02.221

    Quote

    Silicon containing pump oils appear to destroy the surfaces needed for catalytic H(0) production by giving a silicon or silicon oxide layer on the surfaces used. This type of insulating contamination is well-known in mass spectrometry high-vacuum experiments and is difficult to remove. This contamination is one reason why silicone pump oils are often not recommended for use in mass spectrometry experiments. [...]

    Quote from Curbina

    Rob Woudenberg , Leif Holmlid provided an interesting answer to your query at ResearchGate:

    Yes, I noticed it earlier since I receive an e-mail once comments are made to questions that are posted at RG ;).
    The purpose I asked was to see whether Leif would strengthen het remark in his latest paper with more detailed thoughts.

    Besides, asking questions will generate more interest in the topic through people than are connected with me at RG (e.g. Japanese researchers that have not been connected to Leif yet). In my opinion it is important to promote awareness of UDH/UDD, in particular other LENR researchers, at least to consider the option of UDH/UDD playing a role in their results.


    Regarding his answer: a bit as expected. Detecting H(0) by TOF seems simple but you need the required infrastructure as can pointed out. This is for the professionals to perform.

    Also valuable to know is that Holmlid thinks that UDD/UDH survives a H2O or D2O environment.

    According an abandoned patent application of Pekka Soininen Palladium atoms can be in an Rydberg state:


    Quote

    Until now elements that have been found to possess Rydberg states comprise H, Li, Na, K, Rb, Cs, N, Ni, Ag, Cu, Pd, Ti and Y.

    I need to check another confirmation but if Pd, Ni or Cu can also be brought into a Rydberg state and form clusters, this might help forming H or D RM, in the way Holmlid and co-authors describe, the way to form it in a setup like e.g. F&P (Palladium!). Dusty plasma formed from e.g. Ni may then also be of interest.


    This patent application is an interesting read as it describes in details how Soininen thinks Rydberg Matter can be created and how it may play a role in generating energy by means of Rydberg Matter and Inverted Rydberg Matter.

    All atoms have Rydberg states. A Rydberg state is an "almost ionized" atom or molecule where the excited electron is far enough from the positively charged core that it behaves similarly to a hydrogen atom. Gaseous atoms with a low ionization energy will be easier to excite in large numbers and possibly form Rydberg matter clusters.


    This seems unlikely to easily happen with the atoms of a metal lattice. You would first need to vaporize it in some way.



    https://qudev.phys.ethz.ch/sta…rgLecturePresentation.pdf


    can

    Thanks for the link to the Rydberg lecture presentation.


    To bring Pd, Ni or Cu to its Rydberg state it might indeed need much more effort compared to K when in a very pure and proper annealed state.

    But when you look at some circumstances where excess heat is claimed, you can see there are often used quite crude methods, e.g. sparking, HV electrolysis and sometimes sputtering kind of methods. Also think about your own suggestion that a kind of sputtering or evaporation might have happened, causing a catalytic effect, in Holmlid's experiments where he uses a laser to trigger UDD/UDH. Also the electrochemical method of NASA is interesting in that aspect as it deposits single atoms of Pd by means of electrolysis.


    What intrigues me is that Holmlid proposes to use RM with a higher energy level than H or D RM to form H or D RM.

    This is probably because of it might be easier to form clusters of H or D atoms in Rydberg state from K RM than to produce H or D RM by a direct method. The same might be the case using RM from other metals like Pd, Ni, Cu etc. although more difficult to produce at first glance. Maybe the ease of cluster forming is the most important aspect, more that the ease of bringing atoms to its Rydberg states. Or, the ease of energy transfer required to form clusters is higher using types of RM clusters that have higher energy levels. Lifetimes of Rydberg states might also be of influence.

    • Official Post
    Quote from Rob Woudenberg

    To bring Pd, Ni or Cu to its Rydberg state it might indeed need much more effort compared to K when in a very pure and proper annealed state.

    In my opinion, the quest for chemical purity in making fuels for LENR systems is counterproductive. LENR is a natural phenomenon, or it would not exist at all, and Nature doesn't deal in high purity materials.

    Rob Woudenberg

    To clarify, I meant that forming Rydberg atoms of Pd (or Ni, Cu, ...) in Fleischmann–Pons-type electrolytic experiments (during electrolysis) seems unrealistic. I find more likely that the alkali atoms and gaseous atoms (H/D) that can be absorbed in the material can form Rydberg atoms and matter for example by diffusion into segregated pores and cavities. Some have proposed that the highly H/D-loaded and stressed lattice could by transiently produce high voltage discharges by brittle fracture processes, but I think the amount of ionized solid material from these would be very low.


    Formation of excited atoms and clusters of also transition metals during vapor deposition processes, laser ablation, sparking etc. seems more plausible, but these would have a limited lifetime and so the LENR experiments would have to make these processes as part of their normal operating mode.


    EDIT: one thing to consider is that Rydberg atoms at high excitation levels have enormous sizes and can easily interact with ground-state atoms and other excited atoms or clusters. Alkali atoms are simpler to bring to a high excitation state due to their low ionization energy.


    I could draw an example myself, but have a look at this one from https://doi.org/10.1017/CBO9780511524530 (paywalled, often cited book on Rydberg atoms)


    Quote from can

    Some have proposed that the highly H/D-loaded and stressed lattice could by transiently produce high voltage discharges by brittle fracture processes, but I think the amount of ionized solid material from these would be very low.

    I would rather think that high loading of D or H into metal lattices create lattice instabilities allowing free movement of metal atoms or small clusters of metal atoms, maybe combined with (internal) discharges. These lattice instabilities could occur at a higher rate when different metals are stacked like Iwamura and others apply. But I agree with you, these effects are likely very infrequent and at a too low rate, having short Rydberg lifetimes in mind. Hence the difficulties with reproducibility.


    The presence of a magnetic field has also been suggested when replicating F&P experiments, but I failed to find references unfortunately.


    What seems relevant is to produce a constant flow of Rydberg atoms rather than produce uncontrolled bursts (of too small amounts) given the limited lifetimes of Rydberg states.


    p.s. I've a 2005 updated copy of that book of Thomas F. Gallagher. Indeed stunning how large these atoms are.

    Quote from Rob Woudenberg

    The presence of a magnetic field has also been suggested when replicating F&P experiments, but I failed to find references unfortunately.


    There are some papers on LENR-CANR.org describing the effect (or lack thereof) of magnetic fields, but results are not always clear.


    As far as I am aware of, static magnetic fields can increase the lifetime of Rydberg states considerably especially at high excitation states. This is a graph I recently made from the data in a related (paywalled) publication. The lifetime of circular Rydberg states with negative magnetic quantum number m is increased, that of those with a positive one is decreased:




    Intuitively it looks like magnetic fields would be helpful in forming more Rydberg matter, but Holmlid has reported also in the latest publication that they can prevent condensation of Rydberg matter to the ultra-dense state.


    Perhaps (just my speculation) they can be helpful if condensation to H(0) is allowed to take place away from the catalyst and the magnetic field source (e.g. heater)—which might not be the case in many compact LENR reactors like tubes and so on—or if the magnetic field is intermittently applied at a low rate.


    Quote from Rob Woudenberg

    What seems relevant is to produce a constant flow of Rydberg atoms rather than produce uncontrolled bursts (of too small amounts) given the limited lifetimes of Rydberg states.

    The deliberate presence of an excitation source, or high temperatures with a material that can thermally emit Rydberg states (of alkali metals) seems the easiest way, although one thing is in theory and another in practice.

    Quote from can

    Intuitively it looks like magnetic fields would be helpful in forming more Rydberg matter, but Holmlid has reported also in the latest publication that they can prevent condensation of Rydberg matter to the ultra-dense state.


    Perhaps (just my speculation) they can be helpful if condensation to H(0) is allowed to take place away from the catalyst and the magnetic field source (e.g. heater), which might not be the case in many compact LENR reactors like tubes and so on, or if the magnetic field is intermittently applied at a low rate.

    A pulsed magnetic field might offer a solution, but it probably needs to have alternating directions since uni-directional magnetic field will probably cause remnant magnetism if the environment contains ferromagnetic metals. Or, better, use pulsating fields in a non-ferromagnetic environment.

    The iron oxide catalysts themselves as used in Holmlid's experiments become ferromagnetic once partially reduced, so the choice of the catalyst material will also have to be considered. Nickel (often used in LENR experiments) would be affected too. It might be more practical to design a reactor with the properties of ultra-dense hydrogen in mind, e.g. with a reduced-temperature zone with limited or no magnetic field influence.

    It should not be difficult to test that, but as usual the issue is making meaningful measurements. Excess heat might be more difficult to observe as the ultra-dense phase might not necessarily show where one would normally expect it.


    With the recently proposed idea that industrial catalytic reactors may be emitting muons from ultra-dense hydrogen (see excerpt below), testing should be even easier and a vacuum chamber might not be needed at all. A proper muon detector will be needed however.


    https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2021.02.221



    Actually, in the past few days I've been attempting exactly this with a small contraption consisting of a heating coil embedded in catalytic ceramic material (stoichiometric K2CO3–Fe2O3 and graphite, although most of the graphite eventually burns) and powered with DC. Hydrogen from electrolysis diffuses through the material and flows out to the atmosphere from the partially plugged opening.



    Detection of possibly muons and other particles is with a CMOS sensor from a webcam. However, my background signal is high so discerning a real one from it is not straightforward and ultimately it might be just functioning somewhat like an insensitive Geiger detector (200–300 counts or "events"/day).



    The graph on the left is showing an increased average as I increased the detection sensitivity (since it is not strictly muons that it needs to detect here). Hopefully the signal will keep slowly increasing as I keep admitting hydrogen, although I saw no indication of that earlier on, using a lower detection sensitivity.


    More information here on CMOS detection of cosmic rays and other energetic radiation:


    Ultimately, one might need the muon detection system used by Holmlid, Ólafsson, Zeiner-Gundersen.

    • Official Post

    You describe the problem very well can , you are performing a relatively simple experiment that might well be producing H(0) and the problem is how to detect it.


    I asked Holmlid in ResearchGate if he knew the work of Matsumoto, he answered he did not, thanked me and told me he would look into it, but again insisted that instead of looking for fusion signatures as neutrons Cold Fusionists should have been looking for muons, pions or kaons, I told him that probably Matsumoto saw them as he detected multiple traces in nuclear emulsions but as the traces were of so many kinds he attempted to explain them all with his Nattoh model.

    Curbina

    It should not be too difficult to try applying one of the oft-used methods for muon or cosmic ray detection to LENR experiments that reliably produce anomalous radiation emission. It would be interesting to find out what sort of traces such experiments leave into CMOS/CCD sensors used for this type of detection.


    More seriously conducted experiments in this regard use instead of tiny webcam CMOS sensors (of about maybe 4mm size), large CCD sensors (>35 mm) manufactured to give low electronic noise. The larger surface area gives enhanced detection rate and typically they will have a higher resolution too; they are sometimes called "astrophotography cameras" or "astronomical cameras" and of course tend to be expensive.

    Rob Woudenberg

    At the moment the CMOS sensor (covered with one layer of Al foil and black tape) is at about 33 centimeters from the the tip of the tube, at an angle of about 30° due to space constraints. However, since hydrogen is not contained within the catalyst area due to the free flowing setup, the Rydberg matter produced may eventually condense to the ultra-dense form somewhere else in the environment, so the actual location may not be of fundamental importance. On the other hand, this means that shielding could remove a muon signal from UDH spontaneously annihilating in the environment.


    Here is a schematic top view of the setup.




    The CMOS sensor has a layer of Al not just to prevent light, but also because the proposed muons decaying from H(0) annihilation are suggested to interact with metals to produce electron–positron pairs, which may be observed by the sensor as well.


    Check here on this regard: https://www.researchgate.net/p…by_lepton_pair-production

    Rob Woudenberg

    I thought about it but I'm afraid it might not be very reliable in my case since the wires are closely spaced together. I'm almost out of Kanthal wire; I could try breaking the current catalyst and rewinding it.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifilar_coil




    As for CMOS detection, so far I haven't noticed a visible long-term increase. Sometimes the event rate appears as if it's responding to changes in temperature or gas flow, but it is probably random. I have noticed though that I get often paired spots. I don't know what that means, although I recall something along these lines being mentioned elsewhere.


    Below is a collection of such spots. They tend to be close together and almost always are the only ones visible in the recorded images.



    Again, this probably needs a better setup and more sensitive detection system. I could try checking out if minimizing the magnetic field helps somewhat.

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