Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread

  • With D, condensation to the ultra-dense form should be easier and release more energy, and spontaneous D–D fusion releasing energy locally should be occurring as well. Annihilation reactions from which muons are eventually formed however might not easily deposit their energy locally without thick shielding or special shielding.


    https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-4357/aadda1

    Quote

    Since the bonding is slightly stronger in D(0) than in protium p(0), it is likely that deuterons (which are bosons) condense to d(0) more easily than protons (fermions) do to p(0), and that d(0) is more resistant against excitation and fragmentation

    https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1402-4896/ab1276

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    There exists one clear difference in the cluster forms for protium p(0) and deuterium D(0). This concerns the distances observed in the CE experiments. The CE experiments on D(0) clusters give distances of approximately 2.3 pm (s = 2) and 0.56 pm (s = 1), while those for p(0) give distances of 2.3 pm (s = 2) and 5.0 pm (s = 3).


    I'm not sure if the resistivity decrease is related to the superconductivity of the chain clusters of H(0), since above a certain temperature these are supposed to disappear due to reaching their critical temperature. I recall that the resistivity decrease observed in Celani wires persists regardless of temperature, until all or most of the hydrogen is removed from it with heat and vacuum. It could be that the properties of UDH are different when it is absorbed inside the material than on the surface, but this hasn't been investigated so far.


    See: Phase transition temperatures of 405-725 K in superfluid ultra-dense hydrogen clusters on metal surfaces: AIP Advances: Vol 6, No 4 (scitation.org)

  • With D, condensation to the ultra-dense form should be easier and release more energy, and spontaneous D–D fusion releasing energy locally should be occurring as well. Annihilation reactions from which muons are eventually formed however might not easily deposit their energy locally without thick shielding or special shielding.

    This would mean Helium production without the presence of muons.
    Hopefully Celani will report measurements on this soon.

  • Brilliouin Energy Corporation is another professional company that claims development of LENR technology.

    A fairly recent patent application mentions the presence of phonon energy.

    In physics, a phonon is a collective excitation in a periodic, elastic arrangement of atoms or molecules in condensed matter, specifically in solids and some liquids.

    Given above definition, this would include the possibility of UDH or UDD although they do not refer to the work of Holmlid. They mainly refer to Dennis Cravens and George Russ.


    Their main feature is control of generated heat by means of very specific pulsation.


    The method Holmlid is describing to generate UDH/UDD seems to have very limited options to control the amount of UDH/UDD. I am wondering whether pulsation would be helpful in doing so.

    In particular modulation of additional electromagnetic and/or electrostatic fields would be candidates of methods in my view.

    Looking at:

    Extra stimulation (and control) of emitted electrons and alkali ions could be done by placing one or more extra electrode(s) to add a controllable additional electrostatic field near the surface of such catalyst.

  • Since I read Peter Hagelstein’s ideas about Phonons, and for making my own way to relate to the term, I have understood the phonon as a conceptual entity created to visualize it as the one that carries vibrational energy within matter in any state (even tho the idea was developed for lattices, I think it works for liquids and gases also). I don’t see phonons as a “real thing” per se, but as a function that can be assumed by different entities. In water actively stirred by ultrasound, one could say that the resonant clusters of water molecules formed by the ultrasound waves are stabilized / coherent / resonant structures that act as phonon clusters, so to speak.

    The UDH clusters could, in this context, be a “silent” storage of phonon energy.


    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • The method Holmlid is describing to generate UDH/UDD seems to have very limited options to control the amount of UDH/UDD. I am wondering whether pulsation would be helpful in doing so.

    In particular modulation of additional electromagnetic and/or electrostatic fields would be candidates of methods in my view.

    Looking at: [image]

    Extra stimulation (and control) of emitted electrons and alkali ions could be done by placing one or more extra electrode(s) to add a controllable additional electrostatic field near the surface of such catalyst.

    From the description given in the latest paper it sounds like the reactive hydrogen species adsorbed on the surface of alkali-promoted catalysts are already UDH in various forms and so that it is apparently very easily formed. If this is the case, the amount of UDH produced would simply be proportional to the amount of gas admitted over the catalysts.


    I guess the main issue will be not making this form of hydrogen react with ordinary molecules before it can transition to a stable form, which should be easier to accomplish in a vacuum.


    See this final excerpt from https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2021.02.221


    Quote

    The efficiency of alkali promoted catalysts for reactions involving hydrogen transfer leads us to suggest that it is the H(0) formed which is the source of reactive hydrogen in the catalyzed reactions. Condensed atomic hydrogen has in fact three different forms with different length and energy scales, as described by Hirsch [125]. At the two largest length scales, the bond energy for hydrogen atoms is a small fraction of what it is in the most densely bound form which we here call H(0). The second largest length scale is called ordinary Rydberg matter of hydrogen H(l), of which the lowest state is H(1). The largest length scale of hydrogen is superfluid and superconductive, with Rydberg electrons and very loosely bound hydrogen atoms. This means that H(0) becomes a storage phase of hydrogen atoms, and can produce loosely bound hydrogen atoms which will easily take part in chemical reactions.


    Otherwise, completely different methods which can provide a high density of excited alkali and hydrogen atoms should in principle be able to produce UDH. I think cathodic plasma electrolysis, which I have often toyed with, should work towards this, but as usual the main issue is suitable detection of the expected reaction products.

  • Post by Cydonia ().

    This post was deleted by the author themselves ().
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    The explanation from https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2021.02.221 is a bit impractical and serves explanation only since the surface of the solid as shown has a certain high temperature that will make condensation of H RM almost impossible.

    Other than that it may indeed be the case that using the K doped iron oxides the production efficiency can be very high. So, that gives it indeed a simple control just by the supply of Hydrogen.


    I figured that the most ideal setup require three efficient elements present:

    1. a provision to split molecular H into atomic H
    2. a provision to release alkali metal atoms and excite them into Rydberg states or ions
    3. a surface to allow condensation to UDH

    For all three we can give multiple examples.


    The approach by using electrolysis is an intriguing one.

    I guess that the biggest challenge is to bring the alkali ions into an excited state. This will probably be possible at the boundaries of the plasma bubbles, where temperature might be high enough and free electrons are available. The plasma bubbles themselves will probably contain the required H atoms. The surrounding water could be useful to absorb the condensation energy that is released when UDH is formed. I am curious how you see this though.

  • the potassium way or the iron oxide one aren't the only ways to reach what you plan.

    This way of excited state transfert isn't the only one...


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…tom#Methods_of_production

  • The explanation from https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2021.02.221 is a bit impractical and serves explanation only since the surface of the solid as shown has a certain high temperature that will make condensation of H RM almost impossible.

    Other than that it may indeed be the case that using the K doped iron oxides the production efficiency can be very high. So, that gives it indeed a simple control just by the supply of Hydrogen.


    If the relatively weakly bound alkali RM can be formed on the surface of the hot catalysts, it should not be an issue for H RM to also exist there with its bond energy of at least 9.4 eV/atom in its lowest excitation state. See also the conclusions of https://doi.org/10.1063/1.4947276 in reference to another effect:


    Quote

    Above the transition temperature, the superfluid and superconductive long chain-clusters H2N(0) have disappeared, and only the normal small clusters like H4(0) remain. The higher Rydberg matter level H(1) remains on the surface at high temperature, thus extensive desorption does not take place


    On the other hand, I see an issue for the superfluid form of H(0) to exist on the surface of the industrial alkali-promoted catalysts under regular operating conditions in light of this transition temperature. This point is not explained in the latest paper.


    I figured that the most ideal setup require three efficient elements present:

    • a provision to split molecular H into atomic H
    • a provision to release alkali metal atoms and excite them into Rydberg states or ions
    • a surface to allow condensation to UDH

    For all three we can give multiple examples.

    For what it's worth, it seems that a surface is not required for the condensation to UDH from H RM according to the latest publication (although it should still be required for the initial RM to form): https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2021.02.221


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    The final conversion step from ordinary hydrogen Rydberg matter H(l) to H(0) is spontaneous and does not require a solid surface [...]

    Quote

    H(0) is finally stabilized probably by emission of infrared and visible radiation [81,82], either in the form of free clusters in a vacuum or gas [83], or supported on suitable surfaces [79,84].


    This should mean that H RM may not necessarily condense to the ultra-dense form in close proximity to where it was first formed.


    The approach by using electrolysis is an intriguing one.

    I guess that the biggest challenge is to bring the alkali ions into an excited state. This will probably be possible at the boundaries of the plasma bubbles, where temperature might be high enough and free electrons are available. The plasma bubbles themselves will probably contain the required H atoms. The surrounding water could be useful to absorb the condensation energy that is released when UDH is formed. I am curious how you see this though.

    The hot plasma sheath surrounding the cathode is reportedly initiated by secondary electron emission from the impact of positively charged species on it (H, alkali) due to the applied electric field. As the cathode becomes hotter, thermionic emission should also start becoming important. The electron density should be high.


    The density and flux of H and alkali atoms near the plasma region is likely to be considerably higher than that attained on the surface of ordinary industrial catalysts under typical operating conditions. Neutral species in solution may also participate to the reaction.


    Reactive H species (radicals) assisting ordinary chemical reactions are also known to be formed under these conditions (try for example searching for "H·" or "radical" in this open-access paper: https://doi.org/10.1007/s11090-017-9804-z), which may be of the same nature of those that Holmlid et al. suggest to be due to UDH on the surface of industrial catalysts.


    Transmutations and excess heat have been sometimes reported in these experiments. If there is a common cause for LENR, it should apply also for plasma electrolysis.



    I should also add that from my own recent testing that I documented in another thread here on LENR-Forum, a visible plasma can be initiated at rather low voltages (less than 30V) if the concentration of alkali ions in the solution is high enough. Just a personal speculation, but I thought that perhaps there could be a link with how a high density of alkali atoms is suggested to be important for [eventually] the formation of H(0).


    (which leads to another question: how is the electrolytic plasma discharge actually initiated in the first place? High voltages are not strictly required as commonly thought).

  • This should mean that H RM may not necessarily condense to the ultra-dense form in close proximity to where it was first formed.

    H2 is known as an excellent heat conductor, so a gaseous surrounding may indeed work as well.

    At least there should be a conditions where condensation energy is able to be transported away from where UDH is formed.

    So "3. a surface to allow condensation to UDH" should be: "3. environment to transport released condensation energy".


    (which leads to another question: how is the electrolytic plasma discharge actually initiated in the first place? High voltages are not strictly required as commonly thought).

    This is related to the density of the electrical field which is extremely high at sharp tips of pointy cathodes.

    Walter Lewin (MIT) explained this is a very clear way in this YouTube video.

    And thus, you also may enlarge the surface of your anode to further enhance discharge at low voltages, e.g.




  • Rob Woudenberg

    Technically speaking, the process I am referring about has the characteristics of a glow discharge. It occurs more or less homogeneously over the entire immersed cathode surface and also with fresh, non-sharp cathodes. I don't think there is any particular electric field enhancement effect going on with the cathode surface itself, but a related effect must be occurring close to it or at its interface when the density of ions in solution is increased (up to saturation). The small-area negative cathode under operating conditions must be somehow seeing a "wall" of positive charges, causing a homogeneously distributed large effective local electric potential.


    If H RM actually manages to be formed under these conditions, the large condensation energy to the ultra-dense form would likely be contributing energy to the observed plasma phenomenon.


    EDIT: if one wanted to involve RM further, a related hypothesis could be that high-excitation alkali RM formed in the same process causes intense electron emission, similarly to what happened in the early '90s in experiments with thermionic diodes by Holmlid et al. (example), promoting plasma formation. As for proving it, though...