Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread

    With D, condensation to the ultra-dense form should be easier and release more energy, and spontaneous D–D fusion releasing energy locally should be occurring as well. Annihilation reactions from which muons are eventually formed however might not easily deposit their energy locally without thick shielding or special shielding.


    https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/1538-4357/aadda1

    Quote

    Since the bonding is slightly stronger in D(0) than in protium p(0), it is likely that deuterons (which are bosons) condense to d(0) more easily than protons (fermions) do to p(0), and that d(0) is more resistant against excitation and fragmentation

    https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1402-4896/ab1276

    Quote

    There exists one clear difference in the cluster forms for protium p(0) and deuterium D(0). This concerns the distances observed in the CE experiments. The CE experiments on D(0) clusters give distances of approximately 2.3 pm (s = 2) and 0.56 pm (s = 1), while those for p(0) give distances of 2.3 pm (s = 2) and 5.0 pm (s = 3).


    I'm not sure if the resistivity decrease is related to the superconductivity of the chain clusters of H(0), since above a certain temperature these are supposed to disappear due to reaching their critical temperature. I recall that the resistivity decrease observed in Celani wires persists regardless of temperature, until all or most of the hydrogen is removed from it with heat and vacuum. It could be that the properties of UDH are different when it is absorbed inside the material than on the surface, but this hasn't been investigated so far.


    See: Phase transition temperatures of 405-725 K in superfluid ultra-dense hydrogen clusters on metal surfaces: AIP Advances: Vol 6, No 4 (scitation.org)

    Quote from can

    With D, condensation to the ultra-dense form should be easier and release more energy, and spontaneous D–D fusion releasing energy locally should be occurring as well. Annihilation reactions from which muons are eventually formed however might not easily deposit their energy locally without thick shielding or special shielding.

    This would mean Helium production without the presence of muons.
    Hopefully Celani will report measurements on this soon.

    Brilliouin Energy Corporation is another professional company that claims development of LENR technology.

    A fairly recent patent application mentions the presence of phonon energy.

    In physics, a phonon is a collective excitation in a periodic, elastic arrangement of atoms or molecules in condensed matter, specifically in solids and some liquids.

    Given above definition, this would include the possibility of UDH or UDD although they do not refer to the work of Holmlid. They mainly refer to Dennis Cravens and George Russ.


    Their main feature is control of generated heat by means of very specific pulsation.


    The method Holmlid is describing to generate UDH/UDD seems to have very limited options to control the amount of UDH/UDD. I am wondering whether pulsation would be helpful in doing so.

    In particular modulation of additional electromagnetic and/or electrostatic fields would be candidates of methods in my view.

    Looking at:

    Extra stimulation (and control) of emitted electrons and alkali ions could be done by placing one or more extra electrode(s) to add a controllable additional electrostatic field near the surface of such catalyst.

    • Official Post

    Since I read Peter Hagelstein’s ideas about Phonons, and for making my own way to relate to the term, I have understood the phonon as a conceptual entity created to visualize it as the one that carries vibrational energy within matter in any state (even tho the idea was developed for lattices, I think it works for liquids and gases also). I don’t see phonons as a “real thing” per se, but as a function that can be assumed by different entities. In water actively stirred by ultrasound, one could say that the resonant clusters of water molecules formed by the ultrasound waves are stabilized / coherent / resonant structures that act as phonon clusters, so to speak.

    The UDH clusters could, in this context, be a “silent” storage of phonon energy.


    Quote from Rob Woudenberg

    The method Holmlid is describing to generate UDH/UDD seems to have very limited options to control the amount of UDH/UDD. I am wondering whether pulsation would be helpful in doing so.

    In particular modulation of additional electromagnetic and/or electrostatic fields would be candidates of methods in my view.

    Looking at: [image]

    Extra stimulation (and control) of emitted electrons and alkali ions could be done by placing one or more extra electrode(s) to add a controllable additional electrostatic field near the surface of such catalyst.

    From the description given in the latest paper it sounds like the reactive hydrogen species adsorbed on the surface of alkali-promoted catalysts are already UDH in various forms and so that it is apparently very easily formed. If this is the case, the amount of UDH produced would simply be proportional to the amount of gas admitted over the catalysts.


    I guess the main issue will be not making this form of hydrogen react with ordinary molecules before it can transition to a stable form, which should be easier to accomplish in a vacuum.


    See this final excerpt from https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2021.02.221


    Quote

    The efficiency of alkali promoted catalysts for reactions involving hydrogen transfer leads us to suggest that it is the H(0) formed which is the source of reactive hydrogen in the catalyzed reactions. Condensed atomic hydrogen has in fact three different forms with different length and energy scales, as described by Hirsch [125]. At the two largest length scales, the bond energy for hydrogen atoms is a small fraction of what it is in the most densely bound form which we here call H(0). The second largest length scale is called ordinary Rydberg matter of hydrogen H(l), of which the lowest state is H(1). The largest length scale of hydrogen is superfluid and superconductive, with Rydberg electrons and very loosely bound hydrogen atoms. This means that H(0) becomes a storage phase of hydrogen atoms, and can produce loosely bound hydrogen atoms which will easily take part in chemical reactions.


    Otherwise, completely different methods which can provide a high density of excited alkali and hydrogen atoms should in principle be able to produce UDH. I think cathodic plasma electrolysis, which I have often toyed with, should work towards this, but as usual the main issue is suitable detection of the expected reaction products.

    can

    The explanation from https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2021.02.221 is a bit impractical and serves explanation only since the surface of the solid as shown has a certain high temperature that will make condensation of H RM almost impossible.

    Other than that it may indeed be the case that using the K doped iron oxides the production efficiency can be very high. So, that gives it indeed a simple control just by the supply of Hydrogen.


    I figured that the most ideal setup require three efficient elements present:

    1. a provision to split molecular H into atomic H
    2. a provision to release alkali metal atoms and excite them into Rydberg states or ions
    3. a surface to allow condensation to UDH

    For all three we can give multiple examples.


    The approach by using electrolysis is an intriguing one.

    I guess that the biggest challenge is to bring the alkali ions into an excited state. This will probably be possible at the boundaries of the plasma bubbles, where temperature might be high enough and free electrons are available. The plasma bubbles themselves will probably contain the required H atoms. The surrounding water could be useful to absorb the condensation energy that is released when UDH is formed. I am curious how you see this though.

    the potassium way or the iron oxide one aren't the only ways to reach what you plan.

    This way of excited state transfert isn't the only one...


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…tom#Methods_of_production

    Quote from Rob Woudenberg

    The explanation from https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2021.02.221 is a bit impractical and serves explanation only since the surface of the solid as shown has a certain high temperature that will make condensation of H RM almost impossible.

    Other than that it may indeed be the case that using the K doped iron oxides the production efficiency can be very high. So, that gives it indeed a simple control just by the supply of Hydrogen.


    If the relatively weakly bound alkali RM can be formed on the surface of the hot catalysts, it should not be an issue for H RM to also exist there with its bond energy of at least 9.4 eV/atom in its lowest excitation state. See also the conclusions of https://doi.org/10.1063/1.4947276 in reference to another effect:


    Quote

    Above the transition temperature, the superfluid and superconductive long chain-clusters H2N(0) have disappeared, and only the normal small clusters like H4(0) remain. The higher Rydberg matter level H(1) remains on the surface at high temperature, thus extensive desorption does not take place


    On the other hand, I see an issue for the superfluid form of H(0) to exist on the surface of the industrial alkali-promoted catalysts under regular operating conditions in light of this transition temperature. This point is not explained in the latest paper.


    Quote from Rob Woudenberg

    I figured that the most ideal setup require three efficient elements present:

    • a provision to split molecular H into atomic H
    • a provision to release alkali metal atoms and excite them into Rydberg states or ions
    • a surface to allow condensation to UDH

    For all three we can give multiple examples.

    For what it's worth, it seems that a surface is not required for the condensation to UDH from H RM according to the latest publication (although it should still be required for the initial RM to form): https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2021.02.221


    Quote

    The final conversion step from ordinary hydrogen Rydberg matter H(l) to H(0) is spontaneous and does not require a solid surface [...]

    Quote

    H(0) is finally stabilized probably by emission of infrared and visible radiation [81,82], either in the form of free clusters in a vacuum or gas [83], or supported on suitable surfaces [79,84].


    This should mean that H RM may not necessarily condense to the ultra-dense form in close proximity to where it was first formed.


    Quote from Rob Woudenberg

    The approach by using electrolysis is an intriguing one.

    I guess that the biggest challenge is to bring the alkali ions into an excited state. This will probably be possible at the boundaries of the plasma bubbles, where temperature might be high enough and free electrons are available. The plasma bubbles themselves will probably contain the required H atoms. The surrounding water could be useful to absorb the condensation energy that is released when UDH is formed. I am curious how you see this though.

    The hot plasma sheath surrounding the cathode is reportedly initiated by secondary electron emission from the impact of positively charged species on it (H, alkali) due to the applied electric field. As the cathode becomes hotter, thermionic emission should also start becoming important. The electron density should be high.


    The density and flux of H and alkali atoms near the plasma region is likely to be considerably higher than that attained on the surface of ordinary industrial catalysts under typical operating conditions. Neutral species in solution may also participate to the reaction.


    Reactive H species (radicals) assisting ordinary chemical reactions are also known to be formed under these conditions (try for example searching for "H·" or "radical" in this open-access paper: https://doi.org/10.1007/s11090-017-9804-z), which may be of the same nature of those that Holmlid et al. suggest to be due to UDH on the surface of industrial catalysts.


    Transmutations and excess heat have been sometimes reported in these experiments. If there is a common cause for LENR, it should apply also for plasma electrolysis.



    I should also add that from my own recent testing that I documented in another thread here on LENR-Forum, a visible plasma can be initiated at rather low voltages (less than 30V) if the concentration of alkali ions in the solution is high enough. Just a personal speculation, but I thought that perhaps there could be a link with how a high density of alkali atoms is suggested to be important for [eventually] the formation of H(0).


    (which leads to another question: how is the electrolytic plasma discharge actually initiated in the first place? High voltages are not strictly required as commonly thought).

    Quote from can

    This should mean that H RM may not necessarily condense to the ultra-dense form in close proximity to where it was first formed.

    H2 is known as an excellent heat conductor, so a gaseous surrounding may indeed work as well.

    At least there should be a conditions where condensation energy is able to be transported away from where UDH is formed.

    So "3. a surface to allow condensation to UDH" should be: "3. environment to transport released condensation energy".


    Quote from can

    (which leads to another question: how is the electrolytic plasma discharge actually initiated in the first place? High voltages are not strictly required as commonly thought).

    This is related to the density of the electrical field which is extremely high at sharp tips of pointy cathodes.

    Walter Lewin (MIT) explained this is a very clear way in this YouTube video.

    And thus, you also may enlarge the surface of your anode to further enhance discharge at low voltages, e.g.




    Rob Woudenberg

    Technically speaking, the process I am referring about has the characteristics of a glow discharge. It occurs more or less homogeneously over the entire immersed cathode surface and also with fresh, non-sharp cathodes. I don't think there is any particular electric field enhancement effect going on with the cathode surface itself, but a related effect must be occurring close to it or at its interface when the density of ions in solution is increased (up to saturation). The small-area negative cathode under operating conditions must be somehow seeing a "wall" of positive charges, causing a homogeneously distributed large effective local electric potential.


    If H RM actually manages to be formed under these conditions, the large condensation energy to the ultra-dense form would likely be contributing energy to the observed plasma phenomenon.


    EDIT: if one wanted to involve RM further, a related hypothesis could be that high-excitation alkali RM formed in the same process causes intense electron emission, similarly to what happened in the early '90s in experiments with thermionic diodes by Holmlid et al. (example), promoting plasma formation. As for proving it, though...

    Edited 2 times, last by can ().

    By random chance, while discussing about BrillightLightPower patent applications in the Telegram LENR-Forum channel, I found this interesting excerpt in one of them: https://patents.google.com/patent/US20200002828A1/ from paragraph [0310] :



    By substituting Na with K, this is chemically the same process for forming the active phase of the styrene catalysts used by Holmlid in his experiments. Basically it is saying that hydrinos—i.e. ultra-dense hydrogen—would be formed as such active phase is also formed.


    Since the compound decomposes with water at low temperatures, it should be possible to conceive a reactor where such phase is cyclically formed-destroyed since the reaction is reversible. This is also a suggestion being made in the same patent application, and a table lists it among many other reversible reactions that would also be forming hydrinos.




    The overall process described by Mills for forming hydrinos however is different than that suggested by Holmlid for forming RM and then UDH. From his latest publication with Kotarba and Stelmachowski, furthermore, Holmlid does not seem to think that Hydrinos are a proven concept:


    https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2021.02.221


    Quote

    [...] Other forms of hydrogen H have been proposed to exist but have not been convincingly observed or deeply studied. The most discussed case may be the hydrinos proposed by R. Mills [4] with very little experimental evidence. The proposed hydrinos have no resemblance to H(0). Further, based on quantum mechanical calculations a form of picometer-sized hydrogen molecule was proposed by Mayer and Reitz [5] to exist at high pressure. These proposed molecules are similar to H(0) in some respects, and may well exist, at least transiently.

    • Official Post

    In my work with chemical hydrogen it is obvious that by creating 'de novo' a metal hydroxide nascent (monatomic) hydrogen is also formed. Conventional wisdom is that this has a very very short half-life, but faced with some anomalies I have concluded that this is not always so. Hydrogen gas leaves the system at below 90C, then traverses 2 meters of pipe. At times the gas temperature at the end of this pipe is 110C. Very odd.

    Alan Smith

    I have never measured temperatures accurately, but in my crude testing I noticed that soot/carbon appears to be more readily gasified or combusted while the KFeO2 compound is being formed rather than after it has formed—at higher temperatures even. This could be a further indication that reactive species are at least transiently formed during the synthesis of this compound, and in the previously linked paper it is incidentally mentioned:


    Quote

    [...] The efficiency of alkali promoted catalysts for reactions involving hydrogen transfer leads us to suggest that it is the H(0) formed which is the source of reactive hydrogen in the catalyzed reactions.

    can
    Good find.
    This is another hint Mills' hydrinos might be simply UDH. The use of alkali metal oxides is a good indicator, as well as mentioning atomic hydrogen.

    Alan Smith

    The temperature increase is likely due to recombination of atomic hydrogen to molecular hydrogen. This is what you are suggesting, right? Should not be too odd.

    Rob Woudenberg

    I find unlikely that hydrinos and H(0) are completely different things, but Mills and Holmlid have focused their studies on different aspects of it, so either researcher's view might not be complete.


    I think Alan is suggesting that normally atomic hydrogen would recombine very quickly close to the production source, but sometimes it appears as if it is taking enough time to travel meters of tubing.

    Methods of production[edit]

    The only truly stable state of a hydrogen-like atom is the ground state with n = 1. The study of Rydberg states requires a reliable technique for exciting ground state atoms to states with a large value of n.


    Electron impact excitation[edit]

    Much early experimental work on Rydberg atoms relied on the use of collimated beams of fast electrons incident on ground-state atoms.[9] Inelastic scattering processes can use the electron kinetic energy to increase the atoms' internal energy exciting to a broad range of different states including many high-lying Rydberg states,

    {\displaystyle e^{-}+A\rightarrow A^{*}+e^{-}}e^{-}+A\rightarrow A^{*}+e^{-}.

    Because the electron can retain any arbitrary amount of its initial kinetic energy, this process always results in a population with a broad spread of different energies.

    • Official Post
    Quote from can

    I think Alan is suggesting that normally atomic hydrogen would recombine very quickly close to the production source, but sometimes it appears as if it is taking enough time to travel meters of tubing.

    Indeed I am suggesting that under certain conditions, for example where the gas is saturated with water vapour - as in this instance - recombination might be delayed.

    This is a kinetic process that you describe whose vibratory aspect of gas atoms should also be taken into account in your reasoning, i think.

    Quote from Alan Smith

    In my work with chemical hydrogen it is obvious that by creating 'de novo' a metal hydroxide nascent (monatomic) hydrogen is also formed. Conventional wisdom is that this has a very very short half-life, but faced with some anomalies I have concluded that this is not always so. Hydrogen gas leaves the system at below 90C, then traverses 2 meters of pipe. At times the gas temperature at the end of this pipe is 110C. Very odd.

    yes, it's a good way of thinking, both well describing argon atoms mixed with the mix, able to delay the recombination delayed. Now recombination delayed should leave more time to have an influence on spins orientation of these radical species.

    Quote from Alan Smith

    Indeed I am suggesting that under certain conditions, for example where the gas is saturated with water vapour - as in this instance - recombination might be delayed.

    Quote from Alan Smith

    Indeed I am suggesting that under certain conditions, for example where the gas is saturated with water vapour - as in this instance - recombination might be delayed.

    That would be an interesting feature of water vapor. This might clarify the description of H2O presence in Mills' patent applications. But maybe also mixing atomic Hydrogen with Argon in a fairly high temperature vessel could help delaying recombination (which is not the case in your own situations I take), which seems another feature in some of Mills' applications.
    Delaying the recombination of atomic Hydrogen will certainly help in forming H RM if alkali RM formation is not too much hindered by these additional ingredients.

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