Ultra-dense hydrogen and Rydberg matter—a more informal general discussion thread

  • Using Leif Holmlid's patented research models can be applied much more simply than you think-all we have to do is achieve a CRITICAL MASS of negative muons, protons and neutrons within the LENR reactor. No metal can be used in the reactor walls like in the TOKOMAK ITER designs because all metals are rapidly degraded by neutron bombardment. A hollowed out granite cube can be obtained from any stone-mason in Cornwall - I bought two for the price of one for £40 - then insert a large Fe tube between two Fe plates, fill with KOH around the tube containing a large mass of X elements which we all know but cannot reveal as yet until we at ECALOX have patented the invention. As far as I can go at this point until our prototype is tested rigorously, :) :) :) ,

  • Dr Richard

    Can you make a diagram of the design described above? Hand-drawn will be ok too.


    Metallic Fe can react with KOH aqueous solution at elevated temperatures to form thin films of the catalytically-active phase of iron oxide styrene catalysts, but KOH in isolated form does not seem very useful.


    Actually what reacts with KOH here is not directly Fe directly, but the rust (as FeOOH) rapidly formed when heat is applied and the KOH solution evaporates from the surface.

  • Negative muon strong source [if any] future use


    ... Nuclear transmutation of FPs by negative muon capture reaction was simulated by PHITS. It was

    found that target nuclide with an atomic number of Z is mostly transmuted to nuclide with an atomic

    number of Z–1. As a result, for our investigated case, 61 % to 87 % of stopped negative muons

    contribute to transmute target nuclide into stable or short-lived nuclide. In the case of 137Cs, 26.7 %

    of 137Cs is transmuted into 135Cs which have longer life-time than original nuclide. The irradiation of

    negative muon beam was also simulated. The result indicates that the position of transmutation by

    negative muon capture is controllable by changing incident energy of negative muon. From a rough

    estimate, it takes about 8.5 × 106 year to transmute 500 g of 135Cs with the negative muon intensity of

    108 muons/sec. We conclude that much higher intensity of negative muon source is required for

    transmutation by negative muon capture reaction.

  • Maybe the Japanese CF researchers should have a look at this publication. Transmutation of Cs137 has been on their agenda as well in the past.
    I wouldn't be surprised if negative muons play a big role in LENR (not only related to muon catalyzed D-D fusion).

  • Some other thoughts on formation of Rydberg H/D to share for comments.


    We have been looking into Holmlid's suggestion of the formation of UDD/UDH by means of Alkali Rydberg matter. But UDD/UDD formation also seems possible without the presence of Alkali metals.


    Currently I wonder whether extreme high values of electrostatic fields would also be an ingredient to form Rydberg H/D matter.

    High electrostatic fields have been applied in numerous LENR experiments by means of hydrogen plasma created by high voltages supplies in close proximity of metals.


    On a nanometer scale however very high electromagnetic fields also do occur in known LENR environments.

    These fields are formed by so called 'double layers'.

    Double layers occur in various situations. Most known are the layers formed at electrodes of electrochemical situations with (liquid) electrolytes. Another situation where double layers occur is at the boundaries of contacting different metals caused by galvani potentials (think of the multi-layer multi metal stacks used by e.g. Iwamura).


    The voltage differences caused in these situations is in the order of sub Volts while the thickness of the double layers is in the order of several Ångstrom. Example: 0.2 V and 10 Å leads to an electric field density of 2*108 V/m. This is a huge value!


    Question is what will happen when atomic Hydrogen is fed through such high electrostatic field, in particular when temperatures are raised to several hundreds of ºC. Would this allow formation of H or D Rydberg matter?


    [EDIT] A related question: how much would the work function value of a metal be influenced when high number of Hydrogen atoms are absorbed in its lattice? I would guess this value would decrease....

  • Rob Woudenberg

    I think the general idea is that conditions leading to the formation of a large enough density of excited hydrogen atoms and hydrogen ions should lead to the formation of Rydberg matter. The main issue seems efficiently achieving this before the atoms recombine to molecules.


    An electric field should in principle help exciting hydrogen atoms and form RM, but RM can be destroyed by strong electric fields, once formed. It might have to be intermittently applied in a controlled way. I don't know if under an electric field capable of directly doing this task a few hundreds °C will matter much, however. To bring one H atom from the ground state to the first excited state it takes 10.2 eV or 984 kJ/mol (also see here for a source for the latter number).


    I recall reading that the more densely packed electrons are, the higher the work function of a material gets. RM of alkali studied by Holmlid in the early 90s had very low density and very low work function.


    Note: the electric field strength of a focused pulse laser beam can also be very high, see:

    What is the amplitude of the electric field in a laser?
    I'm looking for reliable informations about the amplitude (not the intensity), in volt/meter, of the electric field in a typical laser. Or in other words :…
    physics.stackexchange.com

  • An electric field should in principle help exciting hydrogen atoms and form RM, but RM can be destroyed by strong electric fields, once formed. It might have to be intermittently applied in a controlled way.

    can : That is when Hydrogen would not travel and the electrostatic field would last too long.
    However this is different for Hydrogen that moves through a very small local area that contains such high electric field.

    In the case of multi-layer metals in which hydrogen is moving through a local electric field it could be compared to a condition of intermittently applied electrical field (e.g. a laser pulse).


    [EDIT] Illustration of what I meant:

  • I don't think it will be easy to predict what can happen at nanometer distances especially regarding gas flow (which will be more like diffusion at this scale). There must also be enough space and sufficient density of H atoms in the nanocavity for RM clusters to form; a too small one might possibly not work.

  • can
    That is a valid point. It requires at least sufficient large cavity to allow the large Rydberg H atoms to form.
    Most spoken multilayers are formed by sputtering, which is rather coarse way of creating them though.


    This space will be there in case of electrochemical setups that apply electrolytes.

  • Regarding electrochemical setups, I still wonder about plasma electrolysis. It has them all at the cathode: high temperatures and thermionic emission from the cathode, high alkali atom and H atom concentration, high-frequency operation, deposition of elements from the electrolyte (even metals at very high/alkaline pH), etc. It would be interesting to check out if one of the PMT-based 'muon detectors' sees something, although the intense EMI (which some argue is the effect of clusters getting destroyed) might make measurements difficult.

  • it's relevant what you suggested you get closer to the right path.

    can : That is when Hydrogen would not travel and the electrostatic field would last too long.
    However this is different for Hydrogen that moves through a very small local area that contains such high electric field.

    In the case of multi-layer metals in which hydrogen is moving through a local electric field it could be compared to a condition of intermittently applied electrical field (e.g. a laser pulse).


    [EDIT] Illustration of what I meant:

  • can

    I don't have a good insight of where exactly the high temperatures that come with plasma electrolysis occur.

    Best would be at the cathode surface of course. But I would not be surprised if the local heat is occurring just at the wrong spot. Have there been any visuals made by IR camera's that show where the hotspots occur when operating plasma electrolysis?

  • Rob Woudenberg

    So-called "micro-arc discharging" occurs on the working electrode. If you watch the process with a low exposure time and in slow motion it is possible to see bright "dots" occurring randomly on the surface at a very high rate, here is a screenshot from a test I made some time back:



    I don't know if IR cameras have been used, but electron temperatures > 10000K have been measured.

    The characterization of cathodic plasma electrolysis of tungsten by means of optical emission spectroscopy techniques - IOPscience


    Some more estimations in this excerpt from https://doi.org/10.1016/S0257-8972(99)00441-7



  • Clear enough. Temperatures at the right place. I also now recall the glowing cathodes in many experiments.


    The only disturbing factor I can think of right now would be the electromagnetic field that come with these high discharging currents. They are mostly pulsed, but maybe at a too high frequency? Best situation would be to have sufficient absence of strong EM fields between discharges to have UDH release its suggested energy (at least from condensation of RM Hydrogen).


    I wonder whether it would be better to have a kind of control of discharge, e.g. by means of an ignition coil, like used in cars to create controlled sparks. Should not be too expensive to buy some components for this.

  • If I recall correctly, when I checked with my USB RF receiver I observed a discharge rate in the MHz range (It seemed more than what the instrument could properly resolve at a 2.5 MHz sample rate), although this can vary considerably depending on testing conditions.


    The electric field initiating these micro-discharges has also been suggested in plasma electrolysis-related publications to be in the 106–108 V/m range, which is about in the ballpark of what you proposed earlier. This comes from the high concentration of positive charges around the cathode under these conditions.


    I don't have solid evidence for this, but while normally on their own these parameters might have a negative effect for UDH formation, I think conditions here are extreme enough for the UDH clusters to be possibly destroyed almost as soon as they are formed. What is routinely observed as rather intense EMI could be the result of muon emission as observed in typical UDH experiments. It would take a Holmlid-type 'muon detector' to confirm this, though.


    Big spark discharges or exploding-type experiments seem popular in the Russian circles. Sometimes transmutations, strange particles and so on have been reported there.

  • I recall that Brilliouin Energy Corporation advertises that specific pulsation is required for their process, although this

    does not seem to have plasma discharge but more controlled electrolysis. Maybe unrelated.


    I would agree with muon detectors required at almost all types of LENR reactions. If only they were easier and cheaper to obtain.