An Alternative Mechanical Preparation For LENR Material

  • Lately, I have had a recurring dream in which the techniques, loosely speaking, of ancient Japanese swordsmiths inspires LENR experimentation.


    Metals and metal hydrides folded and hammered repeatedly. Many folds followed by a lot of hammering (or pressing between rollers).


    I realize this may seem simplistic.


    A suspicion lingers that mechanical preparation as described above will have a positive effect.


    Mizuno rubbed palladium into nickel. How about hammering it in?


    Would an advantageous interface ensue?


    So, two different scenarios:


    1. hammer metal and hydrides

    2. hammer prepare metals for a mizuno-like experiment


    Yes, I do realize this is at odds with the idea that LENR is a surface effect.

  • nickec

    Changed the title of the thread from “Mechanical Preparation of LENR Material” to “An Alternative Mechanical Preparation For LENR Material”.
  • I have been pondering something like this at times. I am not sure about Mizuno's burnishing method, since so few replicators have got it to work, but one of Arata's colleagues did mention to me that the old Japanese steel-making method of repeatedly folding over and hammering thin the hot metal 'shita-kitae'.

  • I think John Dash (many papers available on LENR-CANR.org) did something along these lines, but using a small cold roller instead. The samples (usually Pd, but sometimes also other materials) would be folded (EDIT: maybe not?) and passed through the [hand-driven] machine several times to reduce their thickness before they would be used for the usual electrolysis experiments (using a diluted sulfuric acid solution electrolyte instead of the typical alkaline solution—deposition of some material occurred too on the surface). Reproducibility was apparently good and a "recipe" was even posted, but it didn't have much following.


    A variation could easily use several material types layered together, folded and then cold rolled, or perhaps instead of different metals, inert impurities like Storms has suggested could be added.

  • If Storms' repeatedly advanced suggestions have some validity, other metals should work too as long as the formation of the necessary gaps and sufficient permeability to hydrogen (or deuterium) are ensured. For example, perhaps just inexpensive Nickel foil could be used and the inert impurities could possibly be added just by sanding down the surface with SiC sandpaper, but without removing the dust produced before folding and cold rolling the piece again (and many other times).


    Yes, I do realize this is at odds with the idea that LENR is a surface effect.

    Inner surfaces (or gaps/cracks, or interfaces), which the process will likely produce, should count too.

  • Inner surfaces (or gaps/cracks, or interfaces), which the process will likely produce, should count too.

    Indeed. Ed Storms is currently pondering the fact that Boron powder is/was used as a reduction flux when smelting palladium, and that this resulted in the inclusion of boron oxide particles in the metal, which could in turn produce defects leading to nano-cracks internally as well as externally which in turn become 'hot spots' for the LENR reaction.

  • Indeed. Ed Storms is currently pondering the fact that Boron powder is/was used as a reduction flux when smelting palladium, and that this resulted in the inclusion of boron oxide particles in the metal, which could in turn produce defects leading to nano-cracks internally as well as externally which in turn become 'hot spots' for the LENR reaction.

    That would accord nicely with the work Miles and Imam are doing with Pd-B cathodes.

  • It's interesting to retain what said JedRothwell by another thread here:


    Another factor that makes the cold fusion effect turn on is electrical current density. The higher it gets, the more intense the cold fusion reaction becomes – when there is a reaction, that is. If there is no reaction in the first place, because, for example, the ratio of hydrogen to palladium doesn’t get above 90%, raising the current does no good.


    Now things i know i can"t share say: you don't have to look especially for a gap or an hole.

    Another behavior should be considered as running principle by metal stress.

  • palladium leaf is not cheap https://www.goldleaf.com.au/go…m-leaf-transfer-leaf.html

    but may be one could find a reproducible way to hammer 3 or so sheets into nickel

    RobertBryant, I recently tried burnishing Palladium leaf into Nickel foil using an agate burnisher. The Palladium leaf is so fragile that it quickly tears into many pieces without achieving any adhesion to the Nickel. Perhaps this isn't the best method... I could try hammering, but what do you hammer it with and how do you prevent it from attaching to the hammer instead of the nickel? I'm open to ideas.

  • If you place the Palladium inside a folded piece of Nickel, I believe the Palladium will be constrained.


    That is the first pounding.


    Then you fold in half and pound again.


    How many cycles?


    Only experiment can answer.


    Work-hardening may prove useful. Or otherwise.

  • It is unclear to me if heating would be required. I want to say no. However, only experimenting can answer, and small variations in procedure sometimes loom large.


    We can only hope that we will understand better after more experience.

  • Like a mille-feuille. One of my favorite cake. A mille-feuille does truly have a thousand layers/leaves (mille feuilles in French), 1024 to be precise, with ten cycles of halving and pounding, 2 power of 10.


    I like the idea to have multilayers because most successful LENR experiments have an interface between 2 metals (that can be the same), with examples already cited in this thread. A crack or gap can be viewed as an interface with H or D desorbing from one side of the interface and condensing on the other side. A multilayer structure or mille-feuille could then multiply the chances to have active sites. Then, if we further assume that the condensation of H requires excited H atoms, a method to desorb atoms in an excited state is required, such as heat or an electric current applied to the mille-feuille (electrolysis does that). How much the atoms should be excited can be calculated in assuming that the condensation leads to Rydberg Matter of H or D, based on the work of Manykin et al. In that context, it can be shown that D desorbing from Pd or Ti, or H desorbing from Ni, would work best because requiring a lower excitation stimulus, something reachable with a few hundred degrees or a small current.


    A mille-feuille cake recipe of

    1) a multi layers structure made of Ti leaves (a thousand layers may be too much, the leaves should still be thick enough to minimize H embrittlement and degradation),

    2) low pressure in the sub-millibar region,

    3) a current through the multilayer structure, enough to excite the D atoms to the energy level required to produce Rydberg matter,

    4) D of high purity added on one side (like the pastry cream in the millefeuille...),

    has plenty to tempt my taste buds.

    I don't like food additives, I don't think that impurities would add anything to that recipe.

  • Like a mille-feuille.

    patisserie and jewellery skills maybe useful


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  • As ignorant I ask a naive metalurgy question:

    is there a way to design a material with adjustable crack size as Edmund Storms theory requires?



    I have an idea, using nanopowders of variable size, but stable structure, that when treated a stable way (eg: H2 loaded, heat treated, mechanically treated), will have cracks linked to the particle size ?


    Or more simply as you propose, hammered, heat shocked...


    Another way seen in a French article by Didier Gras about an industrial incident, would be to use cathodic sputtering, controlling time, intensity, or substrate structure ?


    Controlling the size of cracks would be great to test Edmund Storms theory...

  • AlainCo


    Sintering powders is one possible way to create 'artificial' nano cracks, and highly de-oxidised metal powders sinter at quite low temperatures.


    At first, discrete particles remain because complete compaction or melting does not occur. In powder metallurgy, the selected sintering temperature is always lower than the melting point of the primary metal in the material. However, the selected temperature is high enough to promote neck formation at the point of contact between adjacent particles, although channels remain between the necks.


    The consolidation process is accomplished in a variety of ways, including pressing particles closer together. Other consolidation processes include sintering in 3D printing, which involves the partial melting of powders via a laser or thermal print head.


    In traditional sintering associated with powder metallurgy, particles are initially conjoined by cold welds. This gives the powder compact enough green strength to hold together during further processing.