maning "These are possibly transmutations"?
Clean Planet Ltd (Japan) updates
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bit of new content:
prototype soon
ITER timeline slightly different...
2023 is upon us for another 9 months
its a nice picture
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maning "These are possibly transmutations"?
It's always easy to dismiss oxygen as cross contamination from the atmosphere. But notice that they haven't listed any of the other "elements lighter than nickel".
I guess they are still not ready to make any definitive claims as to what they think the heat generating mechanism might be.
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It's always easy to dismiss oxygen as cross contamination from the atmosphere. But notice that they haven't listed any of the other "elements lighter than nickel".
I guess they are still not ready to make any definitive claims as to what they think the heat generating mechanism might be.
I have to confess that I made the comment because I spect it to be most possibly carbon and oxygen.
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I have to confess that I made the comment because I spect it to be most possibly carbon and oxygen.
I suspect they are playing with us. The diagram that RobertBryant quoted hints at H++H+ fusion - but retains enough ambiguity to be deniable afterwards.
As I mentioned in a previous comment - I think they are just trying to keep multiple camps happy, while they get on with the engineering.
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prototype soon
ITER timeline slightly different...
2023 is upon us for another 9 months
If Clean Planet deliver a clearly COP > 1 device, as they expect their "industrial prototype" to be.
(1) the world will change
(2) LENR will be clearly the best thing since sliced bread
I don't expect this, since they have not shown clear evidence of a scientific prototype with COP > 1 (I have read the two research papers). The second paper was less convincing then the first.
It is for me a red flag when companies talk about commercialisation before there is any clear evidence they have working technology.
I am happy to wait and see, others here will argue that commercial secrecy etc means we would not expect to know what they have.
But, that cuts two ways. We cannot know they have anything that works. My view is that any company with real demonstrable working LENR would announce it because that would immediately bring them very, very large funding - and money enough to stay ahead of competitors, or simply sell out at large profit to somone bigger.
Whichever way this goes - this plan indicates that they should be able to announce a working product within 12 months.
Don't hold your breath. And question why they have not yet announced a working scientific demo.
THH
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If Clean Planet deliver a clearly COP > 1 device,
given that they have ample funding already from both Mitsubishi and Miura.
Maybe ITER can deliver something clear sometime
ITER timeline slightly different..
wasn't ITER meant to deliver a COP of 10
"“[ITER] has the ultimate goal of generating an output power
that is ten times its input power, 500 MW versus 50 MW.”
(Editors of Nature magazine, Aug. 17, 2021)
https://news.newenergytimes.net/2022/02/16/open-letter-to-editors-of-nature/
Don't hold your breath
Possibly the ROI will be a bit unclear for sometime too.
"The EU's domestic agency is Fusion for Energy (F4E). The European Union contributes 45% to the ITER project.
For the period 2021 to 2027, the EU decided to allocate €5.61 billion to the project, following a Council decision in February 2021."
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My view is that any company with real demonstrable working LENR would announce it because that would immediately bring them very, very large funding - and money enough to stay ahead of competitors, or simply sell out at large profit to somone bigger.
Whichever way this goes - this plan indicates that they should be able to announce a working product within 12 months.
Don't hold your breath. And question why they have not yet announced a working scientific demo.
There is no incentive for them to announce prematurely. To do so would invite immense scrutiny, and drain time and human capital that could be better spent elsewhere. Moreover, to announce prematurely, and then fail to meet the expectations, reasonable or unreasonable, of the attending scrutiny, would destroy their credibility. You can't argue about their incentives without adequately countenancing the unique sociology of the situation.
In addition, the argument that their incentive is to announce in order to attract funding, in this instance, doesn't obtain, given that they have ample funding already from both Mitsubishi and Miura.
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they have ample funding already from both Mitsubishi and Miura.
None of which funding comes from the EU or the UK....
in contrast to ITER..
perhaps this might be an area of concern for Europeans
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In addition, the argument that their incentive is to announce in order to attract funding, in this circumstance, doesn't obtain, given that they have ample funding already from both Mitsubishi and Miura.
And as much money from other black-budget sources as they want. You could not get a piece of rice paper between Mitsubishi and the government. When it comes to funding anyway, despite my previous comment about ministerial interference.
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The arguments against my argument are as I summarised. And, I am patient. We will see who is correct in time.
Re ITER
I don't notice ITER ever promising what it does not deliver. You may feel all that money is wasted. I am inclined to agree, but I'd note:
While ITER (old tech) is 10X larger than necessary, the money put into it spun off into related hot fusion tech that is much better - due to better HTS magnets
- Tokomak Energy
- Commonwealth Fusion Systems
(and others)
The (proven) ITER tech gets 10 - 100 X cheaper (maybe more) when you up the magnetic field as is now possible.
There are still enormous engineering problems (near wall etc) but never underestimate technological ingenuity...
COMMONWEALTH FUSION SYSTEMS
On a growing campus an hour outside of Boston, the MIT spinoff Commonwealth Fusion Systems is building their first machine, SPARC, with a goal of producing power by 2025. “You’ll push a button,” CEO and cofounder Bob Mumgaard told the Khosla Ventures CEO Summit this summer, “and for the first time on earth you will make more power out than in from a fusion plasma. That’s about 200 million degrees—you know, cooling towers will have a bunch of steam go out of them—and you let your finger off the button and it will stop, and you push the button again and it will go.” With an explosion in funding from investors including Khosla, Bill Gates, George Soros, Emerson Collective and Google to name a few—they raised $1.8 billion last year alone—CFS hopes to start operating a prototype in 2025.
Think of a fusion reactor as a boiler, in which the plasma inside the reactor’s tokamak produces 650-degree heat in the form of a moving fluid—in Commonwealth’s case it’s molten salt, but it could be steam or high temperature helium—which enters a heat exchanger, making steam that eventually turns a turbine. Except, in this case, the heat in the boiler isn’t made by the combustion of carbon into CO2, but the fusion of hydrogen into helium.
Like the three-decade-old ITER project in France, set for operation in 2025, Commonwealth and many other companies will try to reach net energy gain using a machine called a tokamak, a bagel-shaped device filled with super-hot plasma, heated to about 150 million degrees, within which hydrogen atoms can fuse and release energy. To control that hot plasma, you need to build a very powerful magnetic field. Commonwealth’s breakthrough was tape—specifically, a high-temperature-superconducting steel tape coated with a compound called yttrium-barium-copper oxide. When a prototype was first made commercially available in 2009, Dennis Whyte, director of MIT’s Plasma Science and Fusion Center, ordered as much as he could. With Mumgaard and a team of students, his lab used coils of the stuff to build a new kind of superconducting magnet, and a prototype reactor named ARC, after Tony Stark’s energy source. Commonwealth was born in 2015.
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With aspirational tech one thing I look at is what are the fundamental scaling factors.
That meant I was v enthusiastic about PV (rightly so) since no obvious technological barrier to making it much more efficient, and the materials needed are very small. We see this now we perovskite and multi-layer devices. The cost reduction and efficiency increase has been enormous in the last 20 years DUE TO LOTS OF GOVERNMENT SUBSIDY.
With hot fusion the key scaling factors that looks good is how things scale with magnetic fields, and with lasers:
lasers -> enormous advances although I am not sure how long this can continue. But no fundamental limit
magnet -> enormous advance from better HTS magnets. No fundamental limit although it is going to be tough to beat current best tapes!
Anyway for ITER clones it is magnetic field that scales things, together with much smarter control software
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In addition, the argument that their incentive is to announce in order to attract funding, in this instance, doesn't obtain, given that they have ample funding already from both Mitsubishi and Miura.
Just one comment on this. They have funding from those companies. it may be ample - in which case we can expect rapid technological progress. or, it may be relatively small, a high risk bet, or just a company putting money into something unusual due to good presentations/presenters.
I hope very much that they do have what they hope and (indirectly) claim. My best guess is that they, and their funders, are relying on the data from those two published experiments, and similar. They hope that by scaling things up performance will be clear. What makes me pessimistic is that the second experiment did NOT close any of the holes from the first, when it could have done so.
If they have nothing this is something that will show itself from a lack of obvious progress, over several years. Eventually it will become clear to all. But, those who want to hope can go on hoping for a long time (including Clean Planet) since all can reckon that lack of performance in the industrial-sized prototypes is just something they got wrong which is mendable. We all know engineering takes time. Excuses about lack of scientific validation will continue to be reasonable as now.
If they have something real of the magnitude they claim: then they cannot keep the lid on this and it will be come clear pretty quickly.
THH
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If they have something real of the magnitude they claim: then they cannot keep the lid on this and it will be come clear pretty quickly.
That is their plan. Talk less produce more.
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produce more.
Nuclear nano layer cake takes a while to bake,,
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HEAT GENERATION DEVICE, HEAT UTILIZATION SYSTEM AND FILM-LIKE HEAT GENERATION ELEMENT
Publication number: 20230003461 Abstract: A heat generating device includes: a sealed container; a tubular body provided in a hollow portion of the sealed container; a heat generating element provided on an outer surface of the tubular body and configured to generate heat by occluding and discharging hydrogen supplied to the hollow portion; and a flow path formed by an inner surface of the tubular body and through which configured to allow a fluid that exchanges heat with the heat generating element to flow. The heat generating element includes a base made of a hydrogen storage metal, and a multilayer film provided on the base. The multilayer film has a first layer made of a hydrogen storage metal and having a thickness of less than 1000 nm, and a second layer made of a hydrogen storage metal, which is different from that of the first layer, and having a thickness of less than 1000 nm. Type: Application Filed: November 18, 2020 Publication date: January 5, 2023 Applicant: CLEAN PLANET INC. Inventors: Atsushi Kobayashi, Yasuhiro Iwamura, Takehiko Ito, Jirota Kasagi, Hideki Yoshino, Shotaro Hirano- ..a tad longer while than natto this morning
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Full PDF....
"However, an energy source is still mainly obtained from thermal power generation or nuclear power generation. Therefore, from the viewpoint of environmental problems and energy problems, there is a demand for a novel heat utilization system and heat generating device that utilize an inexpensive, clean, and safe energy source and that have not been disclosed in the related art."
Sumimasen..In deference to Fukushima and the patent office
Nuclear nano layer cake
NuclearQuantum nano layer cake -
Just one comment on this. They have funding from those companies. it may be ample - in which case we can expect rapid technological progress.
Just because they've received funding, that doesn't inevitably mean that there will be rapid progress. One doesn't inexorably lead to the other.
Quoteor, it may be relatively small, a high risk bet, or just a company putting money into something unusual due to good presentations/presenters.
The first two investments (from Miura and Mitsubishi in 2019) totalled roughly 7.5mm USD. Add to that whatever the founders capitalised the company with (call it a round 10mm total for arguments sake). That's a reasonable estimate of capital before the below transaction.
https://www.cleanplanet.co.jp/cms/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/220708_CP_MC_PressRelease_EN.pdf
I believe that the figures re: capital in the above press release are before the announced transaction. So my 10mm number doesn't account for the second investment from Mitsubishi in 2022. We can only guess how much it was for.
The total is: ~ $10mm USD + the above investment in 2022 from Mitsubishi.
QuoteMy best guess is that they, and their funders, are relying on the data from those two published experiments, and similar. They hope that by scaling things up performance will be clear. What makes me pessimistic is that the second experiment did NOT close any of the holes from the first, when it could have done so.
There's absolutely no basis for believing this. It's, as you say, a guess. A nonsensical one, at that.
One of the reasons private equity, as distinct from public equity, is a compelling asset class is because private investors sign NDAs and get access to a company's inner workings before they commit to invest.
If you or I go out and buy shares in Proctor & Gamble, then our access is limited to the company's SEC filings. If you or I buy into a private business, then we have access to management, internal projections, R&D, reams of non public data, potential board representation etc.
It strains credulity to suggest that both Miura and Mitsubishi invested based solely on a couple of papers that Clean Planet has released publicly. Given that we're talking about a pre-revenue, venture capital investment, almost certainly, they were allowed access to the company's internal data, if not to the underlying technology itself. They'd be the first investors in a private company in history not to look under the hood before committing.
I don't mean to be rude, but it's not a credible hypothesis. You're just making things up because your reflex is to minimise and dismiss.
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Quote
Therefore, in January 2019, Mitsubishi Estate invested in Clean Planet Inc., a venture company involved in pioneering innovation in the energy sector. Clean Planet has developed a new hydrogen energy technology, in which the energy output per unit of hydrogen is far greater than conventional hydrogen energy. Mitsubishi Estate and Clean Planet will work together to commercialize new hydrogen energy with a goal of reducing the cost of electricity to one tenth of the current level. We will contribute to creating the foundation for the sustainable decarbonized society set out in the Paris Accord by expanding the use of this clean new hydrogen energy worldwide.
