Plasma electrolysis at lower voltages

  • With reference to mechanisms of formation of the electrolytic plasma, I found this paper: Electrolytic plasma technology: Science and engineering - An overview

    According to classical interpretation, plasma is formed into little bubbles that are formed in the process and that have a quite high electric field accross them (e.g. 30V accross a 10um boubble imply an enectric field of 3000 V/mm, that is close to the breakdown voltage for some gases).

    If this theory is true, it should be possible to get electrolytic plasma by applying a relatively low voltage to deionised water (less than 50V, but dependent on the cell geometry) and then by adding some sparkling water! :)

    Two things may happen: a) no plasma is formed: this imply the classical theory is not correct; b) plasma is formed in small boubbles far from electrodes: this gives interesting opportunity to study the behaviour of these entities, without the interference of cathodic reactions.

  • Working link: https://www.researchgate.net/p…d_engineering-An_overview


    [...] If this theory is true, it should be possible to get electrolytic plasma by applying a relatively low voltage to deionised water (less than 50V, but dependent on the cell geometry) and then by adding some sparkling water! :)

    Perhaps what you suggest could be more easily reproducible with ultrasonics? I have thought for some time that externally producing cavitation bubbles could make the plasma/sparking process easier to start—at least when they are generated on the cathode—but I haven't got anything yet on this regard to test.




    EDIT: on a loosely related note, it turns out that reproducing the operation of the Cosmic Ray Finder program is not complex using Python and the OpenCV library. Only a few lines of code are needed for basic operation. It looks like I'm using the camera differently than that program does and the camera is heating up less and has better image quality.


    Here are brief examples of the underlying principles:

    https://medium.com/@rndayala/i…ms-in-opencv-40ee5969a3b7

    https://subscription.packtpub.…ec28/accessing-the-webcam


    To detect cosmic ray events you would read the webcam continuously and calculate the image histogram similarly to what is done in the link above, and select images that have more than a predetermined amount of pixels above a certain threshold value. Operation is fast and compared to the Russian program it uses less resources.

  • Sorry, link fixed...

    Perhaps what you suggest could be more easily reproducible with ultrasonics?

    You got it! This is the natural evolution of this concept... Ultrasounds are able to generate plasma by themselves (sonoluminescence) under proper conditions, and probably they will facilitate the formation of plasma with an external voltage applied, because of charge separation or micro bubbles. But there is even more: according to recent experiments shown by Bob Greenyer, ultrasounds seem to directly generate EVOs (plasmoids) inside the liquid. If these entities are actual charge clusters and not only an hydrodinamic analogue, many interesting things may happen by their interaction with an electric or magnetic field... It is an entire new territory to explore.


    EDIT: on a loosely related note, it turns out that reproducing the operation of the Cosmic Ray Finder program is not complex using Python and the OpenCV library.

    Yes, the algorithm is quite simple. The only thing to consider is using the RAW images and not the compressed ones (usually webcams provide JPEG or MPEG streams that remove most of the information, the uncompressed images are available at a lower rates).

  • Today I made a few other tests, again with 10% HCl electrolyte solution of low-grade purity using a 0.3 mm Ni wire. I added a partial enclosure in the form of a plastic tube (syringe) to avoid the emission of dust and electrolyte droplets into the environment. It allowed longer testing times without strong bleach or chlorine odors, although still not as much as with alkaline electrolyte. The acidic electrolyte in these tests tends to heat up quite rapidly and evaporation (and loss of Cl from the solution?) is an issue. The anode was a large copper bracket with two cupronickel coins in electrical contact with it.


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    I don't think I showed the changes with voltage in detail before. The video here starts with a relatively large dendritic deposition of Cu-CuNi on the cathode, at about 40–41V. At this voltage the tips of the dendrites become incandescent. As voltage is increased, the plasma at the tips turns blue and by increasing it further, the dendrites eventually get destroyed and the reaction transitions to a standard-looking cathodic glow plasma with bright dots fixed in place on the wire surface, possibly where nanotips exist. Voltage is increased up to about 72V, where the wire is homogeneously covered by a blue plasma.


    Occasionally voltage is lowered again to 40V, where dendrites can grow again.


    Electromagnetic emission appears to be the strongest when the wire is in a thin state and 'regular' plasma electrolysis takes place. If dendrites are allowed to grow and stabilize up to higher voltage levels (by increasing voltage slowly), not as much EMI gets generated.


    I put the webcam close to the jar, but it didn't get damaged by the EMI, somewhat disappointingly ;)

    I did not observe again any clear increase due to the testing, but I did not allow the webcam (CMOS sensor) to get too hot.

  • You got it! This is the natural evolution of this concept... Ultrasounds are able to generate plasma by themselves (sonoluminescence) under proper conditions, and probably they will facilitate the formation of plasma with an external voltage applied, because of charge separation or micro bubbles. But there is even more: according to recent experiments shown by Bob Greenyer, ultrasounds seem to directly generate EVOs (plasmoids) inside the liquid. If these entities are actual charge clusters and not only an hydrodynamic analogue, many interesting things may happen by their interaction with an electric or magnetic field... It is an entire new territory to explore.

    An issue is that ordinary sparkling (carbonated) water will not have that many CO2 bubbles available in the first place, and it will even be more conducting than plain/tap water due to the dissolved salts (natural or artificially added) giving effervescence. So, to test the idea, ultrasonic cavitation seems the most reliable and reproducible choice.


    It does not seem like it would be too difficult to test for people with already the ultrasonic equipment at disposal, but for a plasma to be initiated electrolytically I think one would still need either a large electrolyte concentration or sufficiently high voltages.


    Sonoluminescence from isolated cavitating bubbles is likely to involve different mechanisms than electrolytic plasma, in any case. The conditions needed for obtaining the latter seem significantly different; bubbles alone are not enough, and plasma generation does not seem to be a sort of resonating phenomenon as with sonoluminescence (if I understand its general idea correctly).

  • Yes, the algorithm is quite simple. The only thing to consider is using the RAW images and not the compressed ones (usually webcams provide JPEG or MPEG streams that remove most of the information, the uncompressed images are available at a lower rates).

    I noticed this addition only now. The Cosmic Ray Finder application apparently uses MJPG with my webcam, which caused sometimes noticeable block compression artifacts. By default it seems that OpenCV uses instead YUY2, which brings better quality. In both cases at least with my webcam the maximum is 10 fps. The codec can also be forced as seen in the example given here: https://github.com/opencv/opencv/issues/7013

  • In response to suggestions (e.g. Matsumoto) of plasma balls detaching from the cathode I made a quick test.


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    What is going on: The electrolyte is a moderately concentrated K2CO3+KOH solution dirtied by iron oxide impurities. Voltage is about 69V. The cathode is a 1 mm tungsten needle with a sharp tip immersed for about 1–2 mm in the electrolyte. There are two anodes: one composed of two 10mm-thick steel brackets and a 0.3 mm tungsten wire.


    The test starts with cathodic plasma already ongoing with the large steel anode and the 1 mm tungsten needle. I then submerge the 0.3 mm tungsten wire anode and remove the steel anode. The reaction at the cathode keeps going at a lower rate and nothing of interest occurs at the anode regardless of the distance. I try switching anodes a few times and at times both are immersed.


    The most interesting observation is that once the cathodic plasma is initiated, the wire anode does not need to have a large immersed surface area. I could not observe plasma balls (or similar) detaching from the cathode and going to the thin anode, though. If different testing conditions to see this are needed, please advise.



    EDIT: here is one source for that from the attached PDF document (around page 81), although it is not here that the use of two anodes is mentioned.


  • I do easily get "separated sparks" with titanium wire as the cathode, but that's due to it (or the hydride formed) igniting with temperature, and generally the process is destructive for the wire. Perhaps other hydride-forming metals (e.g. Pd) just emit sparks at a low rate under similar conditions, as they get eroded.



    The dust on the bottom of the jar is iron oxide powder.


    EDIT: to clarify, titanium also reacts (combusts) similarly by excessive joule heating in the atmosphere.


    EDIT: also clarified that I meant the "separated sparks" mentioned in the previously posted excerpt relatively to figure 4. I have otherwise never observed these features in the tests except possibly from excess K2CO3 electrolyte accumulated on the cathode dissociating to potassium metal and reacting violently with water.

  • I Think the suggested Matsumoto experiments were the ones called “one point cold fusion”, in which there was one Pt tip and the copper was target submerged in K2CO3, but need to check.

    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • Curbina

    The following papers (1992–1993) discuss those experiments with Pt "pin" and Cu plate, but I don't understand why in the first paper the pin is referred to as an anode since AC was used. Since anodic plasma needs considerably higher voltages than cathodic plasma, it is possible that a plasma only appeared when polarity was negative (I personally never tried AC, though, so I could be wrong).



    https://doi.org/10.13182/FST93-A30209

    https://doi.org/10.13182/FST93-A30214


    In the experiments described in the Journal of New Energy issue I uploaded earlier, DC was used instead.

  • This more recent (from year 2000) brief open-access paper again from Takaaki Matsumoto seems more relevant (low-voltage discharges/plasma electrolysis using DC and thin cathodes) to this thread, but to be honest the 150 keV claim sounds in-credible. It refers to the same tests described in the Journal of New Energy 1996 1-4 issue linked above:


    https://www.osti.gov/etdeweb/servlets/purl/20133163


    Quote

    Feasibility of X-ray laser by Underwater Spark Discharges


    Abstract: The method of Underwater Spark Discharges(USD) is one of the most effective ways for generating extremely compressed atomic clusters (called itonic clusters or micro Ball Lightning(BL)). It is also associated with energetic X-rays, which are caused by the break up of the itonic electrons. Despite of low voltage discharges of about 50 V, the high energy X-rays up to 150 keV can be generated. This paper proposed two methods of generating X-ray laser by using micro BL: (1) micro BL on surfaces of regularly arrayed wire cathodes and (2) gas of micro BL generated by USD. (author)


    Here it is mentioned that the X-Rays are due to the break up of the clusters (Bremsstrahlung?).



    But earlier on (JNE) it was suggested this was just electromagnetic noise:



    Why in-credible? 150 keV x-rays would pass through many meters of air and several centimeters through glass and water, and I think I would have felt them if they are routinely emitted in the experiments.


    Also see: X-Ray attenuation & absorption calculator (gsi.de)

  • That the sparks emit some kind of radiation is more or less acknowledged, it was also proven to have biological effects (as recently as in a paper from Dec 2020). What exactly is this radiation, and why it fools the meters for known radiation types, is still a mistery. In any case, if a paper from 2000 says that is X ray, I doubt that Matsumoto had not a good reason to say it was X rays, specially since he had already 4 years to achieve a better understanding, and considering he was a prolific experimenter.

    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • Curbina

    If they are X-rays, I think they are unlikely to have been emitted directly by the reaction. The signal at 70V, if you carefully check out the different vertical scales (counts/min, counts/5 min, counts/30m), was about 2000 times larger than background. Such strong signal should be easily detected by most radiation detectors.


    It's still possible that the signal was generated inside the detector itself while still not necessarily being electromagnetic interference, and so that it appeared larger than it actually was. A similar principle is used with Leif Holmlid's "muon detector", where the muons generate electron-positron showers directly inside and in front of the window of the "blind" photomultiplier tube (PMT) used for detection (see here). No scintillation crystal is normally used, just aluminium foil in its place.


    If this was the case, it would mean that an ordinary scintillation detector as used by Matsumoto would be enough to detect the 'muons', although making sure that it really isn't just EMI under these these conditions would be a challenge.

  • I consider that the exact nature of the emission is still unknown, several ideas are proposed, but is really a complex phenomena which, and therefore the interpretation of the conventional detection methods is hit and miss. I value the biologic indicators because it confirms its an effect independent of X rays or UV. The work of Priakhin et al was very telling that something that can't be blocked by conventional methods has a significant biologic effect.


    The paper can be found here in this thread. RE: Please post info on any and all designs that create strange ratiation, EVO's, magnetic monpoles and LENR...

    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • Using again an alkaline electrolyte cell, I tried retrieving the average strength of the signal over time at a frequency where the difference between the on/off state was high. I used a standard RTL-SDR USB adapter (radio receiver), a ready-made utility (rtl_tcp from the 'osmocom' package) to retrieve the samples and custom-made code in Python to process them.


    Some related links:


    The average strength is calculated roughly every second with samples retrieved at a rate of 256 kHz. The peak value over those samples is also retrieved. Below is the graph from a brief period of testing under various conditions. The low flat areas are during off conditions.



    It appears that many dynamically changing variables affect it, and the EMI might not necessarily always increase when increasing applied voltage. The onset of plasma appearance can be stronger in magnitude, to only drop substantially when a visible plasma appears (left portion of the graph).


    After a plasma is visible and voltage high, The signal at times slowly increases under stationary input conditions, presumably from the electrolyte heating up and its concentration increasing near the cathode. Sometimes instead it suddenly drops in response to spontaneous changes in the reaction (middle portion of the graph).


    The signal can also be affected by walking in the same room, which presumably causes the generated emissions to bounce differently to the antenna, which seemed unusual for a ~82 MHz frequency. The line-of-sight path between the antenna and the cell is unimpeded (not shown here).


    Both with an acidic and alkaline electrolyte it does not seem that a large cathode helps, even if the reaction looks stronger and power put into the cell substantially increases (from prior testing—not shown here).



    I also tried retrieving data at a high rate (about 2MHz) and as I pointed out in a different thread, the noise appears to have a 1/f character. With a logarithmic scale for both axes in the frequency spectrum, a more or less straight line is obtained.



    What this implies exactly, I'm not sure but it's probably not too unexpected. More information here: 1/f noise - Scholarpedia.

  • Would you be willing to try a cloud chamber? You will be amazed to know who has now a cloud chamber and what he is seeing with it.

    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • Curbina

    I don't have the suitable Peltier coolers for that.


    I'm aware that Sveinn Ólafsson and Sindre Zeiner-Gundersen have used a cloud chamber in some of their experiments.

    There are house made models that can be set up with more ordinary items, dry ice being the more common. Anyway I think LENR experimentalist can gain a lot of insight using one and recording it on video.


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    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • Curbina

    I think it would be simpler to get suitable high-power Peltier cells (+ cooler + fan + all the rest) than dry ice. I am just doubtful that much will be seen besides a [high] background signal, since not much else than that was seen so far with a CMOS sensor (often used for detecting cosmic rays) or with a Geiger detector I previously had.


    This and the inconvenience of not being able to properly log or quantify the observed traces, as well the need of periodically refilling the device with alcohol make me not very inclined to put funds on building one such DIY cloud chambers.

  • The signal can also be affected by walking in the same room, which presumably causes the generated emissions to bounce differently to the antenna, which seemed unusual for a ~82 MHz frequency. The line-of-sight path between the antenna and the cell is unimpeded (not shown here).

    Nothing to do with signal bounce, but caused by the capacitance effect of your body on the sensitivity of the antenna. Well known phenomenon in UHF radio.