ICCF23 open discussion

    • Official Post
    Quote from Cydonia

    You should be more serious Curbina what is this kind of fashion toy, the LEC ?

    Do you think that the main community will finally find serious Cold fusion by the help of LEC ?

    I'm not surprised that Biberian was soaked in it, he who is not even going to be able to propose his own subject but that from Mastromatteo during this ICCF.

    Cydonia , I a well aware that milivolts are not impressive as output, but the issue, the long and protracted issue of LENR, is mainstream recognition. The LEC may not be much, but it seems is reproducible, and that is what Trevithick and mainstream as a whole wants, reproducibility. This is why I suggest it. Not to power the world, but to get LENR recognized by the likes of Trevithick.

    Members that have a verifiable identity and relevant scientific education and experience


    Rob Woudenberg you are right Titanic's captain had all these skills too :thumbup: :thumbup:


    Talent is needed above all, and talent is often found in rough people || || || never linear or flat people :evil: :evil:

    • Official Post

    About Ping Cheng presentation on Ternary Hydrides, the conclusion is interesting as I understand it...

    http://ikkem.com/iccf23/speakervideo/1a-PL02-PINGCHEN.mp4


    Does it look you interesting, and can it raise bew experimental ideas?

    I don't understand much on how to make ternary Hydrides lik that, but maybe was it present in Fleischmann, Iwamura, as effects of contamination, layers or electrolytes?


    Synthesis remind me some experiments ?

    • Official Post
    Quote from Curbina

    as Shane D. already has commented, PC through Trevithick, declined to replicate it.

    I said he did not commit, not that he declined to replicate. That is not at all unusual for someone in such a public position. We went on to talk about other things going on.


    He stated in his presentation that no lab work was done at Google, so it may not be so easy to get done as you think.

    Quote from Curbina

    Cydonia , I a well aware that milivolts are not impressive as output, but the issue, the long and protracted issue of LENR, is mainstream recognition. The LEC may not be much, but it seems is reproducible, and that is what Trevithick and mainstream as a whole wants, reproducibility. This is why I suggest it. Not to power the world, but to get LENR recognized by the likes of Trevithick.

    I completely agree with Curbina. Just like “Fusion Diodes” which are based on a similar effect, “L.E.C." devices , based on the Entenmann-Gordon Effect are a great way to prove that LENRs ac tually exist.


    Frank Gordon's copper tubes and my glass and acrylic resin cells are primitive systems just waiting to be improved.



    It is necessary to increase the active surface, and to seal them in perfectly airtight sealed glass containers, to measure the power produced during long months.


    The tension in my two L.E.C. has been missing since the date of RNBE 2020. (Photo) I think it's due to a hydrogen leak. We need to build more elaborate devices.


    (And no luck, in my glass-sealed device, the little palladium wire broke.) But the idea was good, you have to start over in a well-equipped laboratory.


    I hope our Chinese friends take over.

    Quote from Cydonia

    In this way, what kind of people do you consider as relevant expert ?

    I would say there are three qualifications:

    1. The expert has to publish credible papers showing excess heat with techniques that others replicated.
    2. The expert has to be willing to share his or her knowledge. Unfortunately, many of them are not willing to do that.
    3. The expert has to be alive. Unfortunately, most of the leading experts such as Fleischmann and Bockris are dead.

    #1 means the experiment has to be replicated. Unique experiments might be right, but you never can tell, so I would limit it to experiments that 2 or more people replicated. Bulk Pd-D is the most widely replicated technique. We can now add Mizuno's mesh experiments, with Ramarao and maybe Zhang. Unfortunately, many others who tried to do mesh were not able to replicate, so I guess it is difficult.


    #2 eliminates the Arata-style nanoparticle experiments such as Takahashi. When I last heard from them, they were not willing to share technical details or materials. Maybe they would be willing to work with Google.


    Among the living who have done widely replicated experiments, I guess I would nominate McKubre, Miles, Nagel, Storms, Biberian, Hubler & Pease, and Mizuno (for bulk Pd). Add Mizuno and Ramarao for mesh Pd. If others publish solid replications of Gordon's LEC I would add that to the list.


    Pam Boss did great stuff but it was not replicated, as far as I know.


    Storms is working on a new technique, but he does not wish to reveal the details and it has not been replicated, so that's out.


    Swartz has not been verified or replicated as far as I know, so that's out. If it turns out someone has replicated him, and that person publishes a credible paper, then Swartz would be in. I can only describe what I know. I do not have ESP.


    Brillouin Energy has not been replicated, so they are out. . . . I think you see a pattern emerging here. If you want credibility, you have to first help others replicate. At least, that's how I see it. I would not recommend funding an experiment that has not been replicated. I suppose that when a researcher has tried to have others replicate, but no one taken up on the offer, I would make an exception. When a researcher offers to help others, and publishes details or patent applications which seem to have enough detail to facilitate a replication, I might fund a replication.


    Quote from Cydonia

    At one side, we have entities able and motivated to put money on table.

    At other side, we have so many experts who have to share a part of this cake..

    Who is motivated to put money on the table? Not Google, according to yesterday's presentation their project ended years ago. They have not spent any money lately.


    Quote from Cydonia

    Now, if you consider the Mat Trevithick position , how he should do to find experts from "others" ?

    He has to use his own best judgement. He will, in any case. He does not seem to be inclined to listen to others, or even ask what they think, according to the old guard.


    For this job, you want a person who has self-confidence. But not too much self-confidence. You want someone who understands the technical details, and I think Trevithick does. But not someone who assumes he fully understands the technical details, because no one on earth does. If anyone fully understood cold fusion, they would do an experiment that always works well. Storms claims he has such an experiment. So do the people at Brillouin, and others mentioned above. I hope they are right, but I have no way of knowing. They have to be independently replicated first, as I said.

    Quote from Shane D.

    I said he did not commit, not that he declined to replicate.

    He said the project ended, and no research has been funded since 2019. If the project is over, that means Google declines to replicate. Here is his slide (http://ikkem.com/iccf23/speakervideo/1a-PL01-MATT.mp4, Minute 12):



    Perhaps the project can be restarted. It is not as if Google is running out of money. But he gave no indication they intend to restart. He did say he wants people to publish in Nature and he wants to "recruit 100 new scientists to this field" and "let's go exploring!" Perhaps that means Google will fund the research. Without funding, those goals are delusional. It is a waste of time talking about them.


    (Publishing in Nature is also delusional, with or without funding. They will only publish a paper like Google's, that says nothing specific, with no technical details, and that gives the impression that cold fusion does not exist. Also, it must be accompanied by another paper in the same issue that is full of nonsense, lies and calumny attacking cold fusion. In short, the only meal Nature will serve you is a shit sandwich, with optional broken glass in it.)

    Yes I agree. At the Toulouses meeting, I pointed out that the rechargeable battery industry had developed many alloys, some of which have properties superior to those of palladium, with regard to the extraordinary affinity for hydrogen.



    For 5 years, the quantity of these new hydrides has been greatly increased. Among these compounds is undoubtedly the replacement for our good old palladium.


    But a less expensive replacement, which will pave the way for industrial applications.

    Quote from Rob Woudenberg

    Regarding LEC: Replication seems relatively easy.

    But there is a lack of proof that there are LENRs occurring.

    As I expressed in the dedicated LEC thread, I would not exclude a poor performing PEM effect causing the generation of electrical power, which is a chemical effect rather than nuclear.

    In that case, I suppose the first priority is to exclude the PEM effect and other prosaic chemical effects. I hope that would not be difficult. With most cold fusion cells, you can do that by letting them run for long time, until the net output energy far exceeds the limits of chemistry for the mass of reactants. That does not work if output is very close to input. You might be measuring incorrectly, and they might actually be equal, with no excess energy. You are stuck.


    If the apparent anomaly has been replicated, I would recommend that Google fund a replication mainly focussed on excluding PEM and other prosaic effects.

    Okay, so I think you meant:


    Quote

    The best option would be that LF staff selects a few members that have sufficient professional skills to form an advice team and then work out some advice in a restricted group.

    There are no members here qualified to advise Google or anyone else about what cold fusion experiment to do. Only researchers who have replicated cold fusion are qualified to do that.


    (Of that group, the only ones who qualify are those who did a good job; are able and willing to communicate; and are still alive. That greatly reduces the numbers.)


    Cold fusion is hands-on experimental science. I mean literally, you have to have done the actual experiment in the lab with your hands. Many times, successfully. There are hundreds of details you know only subconsciously because you have done them with your hands, eyes, and intuition. It is like being a master chef. Or a surgeon. This is like asking "who should advise us about the best new methods of doing open-heart surgery." Obviously, only doctors who have actually done open-heart surgery qualify.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    Pam Boss did great stuff but it was not replicated, as far as I know.

    The SPAWAR co-dep work has been replicated, including by a NASA team. And the original group published a bunch of papers.


    I continue to scratch my head as to why PC isn’t interested in the co-dep work.

    Edited once, last by orsova ().

    Like 3
    • Official Post
    Quote from orsova

    The SPAWAR co-dep work has been replicated, including by a NASA team. And the original group published a bunch of papers.


    I continue to scratch my head as to why PC isn’t interested in the co-dep work.

    Or even the recent 2020 replication (with transmutations included) of the 1989 excess heat of Fralick et al by Fralick et al.

    JedRothwell you said:


    The expert has to be alive. Unfortunately, most of the leading experts such as Fleischmann and Bockris are dead.

    You made me laugh, it's true that he must still be alive. Besides, my friend MCK asks the youth to start taking over but apparently they must also keep their ideas, in fact, If I understood correctly.


    Bulk Pd-D is the most widely replicated technique. We can now add Mizuno's mesh experiments, with Ramarao and maybe Zhang. Unfortunately, many others who tried to do mesh were not able to replicate, so I guess it is difficult.

    Well we could add also LEC for example.. Now if we an higher point of view, we would have the feeling that the field is a kind of piece of cloth on which so many teams shoot.

    It is a pseudo organization that works as a matrix , whereas to have a clearer view, it would take a pyramid organization that does not exist because it would require a charismatic leader who has never manifested. In any case, that does not seem to be the organizers of all these international conferences.


    #2 eliminates the Arata-style nanoparticle experiments such as Takahashi. When I last heard from them, they were not willing to share technical details or materials. Maybe they would be willing to work with Google.

    Japan is a very astonishing country compared to its Lenr involvement therefore its results .. One could imagine the Japanese rather linear following in fact not at all..


    Among the living who have done widely replicated experiments, I guess I would nominate McKubre, Miles, Nagel, Storms, Biberian, Hubler & Pease, and Mizuno (for bulk Pd). Add Mizuno and Ramarao for mesh Pd. If others publish solid replications of Gordon's LEC I would add that to the list.

    To my side and from a theoretical point of view i fell Iwamura team the more promising.


    Storms is working on a new technique, but he does not wish to reveal the details and it has not been replicated, so that's out.

    EGOT OUT said a great guy in the past..


    Who is motivated to put money on the table? Not Google, according to yesterday's presentation their project ended years ago. They have not spent any money lately.

    I tend to agree, their mentality has failed in their approach to things of the past, but it has not changed ...

    I had tried to unite Mat Trevithick with Laurent Levin from Renault / Nissan at last Assisi event.

    We had Japanese powder. Laurent surely remains the only valid scientist in France.

    We had organized a meeting with him and Matt, unfortunately, I had to add all the French crap who, moreover, remained silent during the meeting like the impostors they are..

    I was negatively surprised by Matt's negation when Laurent pointed out to them that Google results were better but in relation with a smaller amount of powders. Matt had denied this even though I know that Lenr imply a minimal quantity to react .. It is correlated .. I recall on this topic, that P&F had a big event by an 1cm3 cathode !


    He has to use his own best judgement. He will, in any case. He does not seem to be inclined to listen to others, or even ask what they think, according to the old guard.


    For this job, you want a person who has self-confidence. But not too much self-confidence. You want someone who understands the technical details, and I think Trevithick does. But not someone who assumes he fully understands the technical details, because no one on earth does. If anyone fully understood cold fusion, they would do an experiment that always works well. Storms claims he has such an experiment. So do the people at Brillouin, and others mentioned above. I hope they are right, but I have no way of knowing. They have to be independently replicated first, as I said.

    I agree, for my side I learned that it was already necessary to be wary of its own certainties .. in any case, that's what I learned.

    After deep thoughts, I think that the best organization remains the task force.

    Japan is a task force because its members are located in a restricted geographical area, Japan and are federated at least initially by NEDO.

    Italy should have had better results if they had had an Italian NEDO.

    After all, Google is the California task force, should they succeed ?

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