What is the current state of LENR?

Quote from Wyttenbach

You clearly wrote :: D = n + p..... No disintegration.....For the later you need 2.25MeV quite normal temperature...

The operation is not a crossproduct or multiplication. It was a (particle) chemical mass balance. The operator is plus +. Meant to show photodisintegration. Hence, the need for above 2.2 MeV.

You are right that I should have found a way to include the energy to photodisintegrate on the D side of the equation. I just could not think of a way that would not be misleading. The phat photon mechanism generates the needed high energy input.

The cooperative (multibody) mechanism works to start the reaction and may explain lack of high energy output product. In this way it resembles Edmund Storms HYDROTON A Model of Cold Fusion - YouTube

Quote from Gregory Byron Goble

I see parts of this theory/mechanism becoming integrated in developing a working theory and in other theoretical explanations of experimental results. Do you think none of it (WL theory) has relevance? Or do you think some of these concepts in WL theory are useful when constructing new explanation theories and predictive theories?

It is a collection of neat ideas that fit together:

heavy electron production

-> slow neutrons

-> fusion + also shielding

They are all speculative, in the sense that we do not really know they are possible. I have not seen useful experimental evidence of (any of) them as actually working. I have doubts - e.g. slow neutron production will spread out some slow and some faster neutron production unless the energies balance exactly which is unlikely. Shielding good enough to stop everything again seems unlikely.

I think any of these parts could be relevant to LENR if LENR existed, but I have not seen evidence of any of these parts in LENR experiments. The fact that no high energy products are observed is not evidence - it was teh thing that originally led to this proposed explanation. For example, some quantitative theory of slow neutron production, or some other evidence of slow neutrons - transformations that are as would be expected (in the correct ratios) for cold neutron interaction with every nucleus in the experiment.

Of course if we had clear replicable transformation evidence (and it is very easy to get artifacts) without high energies then LENR would be proven.

THH

Quote

LENR has always had two sides: overcoming the Coulomb barrier (relatively easy to posit mechanisms) and ALL reactions going ONLY (not just a bit - but 99%) to stable products (and also, maybe easier to get, reactions only allowed that emit no high energy particles).

The later is the thermodynamic consequence of the former (analogously burning coal at high temperature brings mixture of CO and CO2, which is able to burn further, but oxidation at low temperatures always leads to most stable product, i.e. CO2 only)

Quote from Bruce__H

All those spikey things don't seem to be traditional noise.

The spikeyness of the posted graph is deceptive, in the context of how a gamma-scintillator-based spectrometer works. The raw signal comes from a photomultiplier tube or semiconductor ("PMT"), which has a thermal noise floor of roughly 1/f character. On top of this is imposed a set of discrete events caused by the photon emission of the scintillator crystal. The PMT output signal is then sampled and sorted by intensity into many quantised bins by a software and/or hardware discriminator mechanism, yielding an output table of the accumulated counts in each bin.

Then a curve can be constructed by "connecting the dots". In the posted graph, this can be seen in the relatively consistent periodicity of the peaks. A much more accurate way of graphing such data is a bar chart, which is less prone to visually exaggerating the possible presence of peaks. Or a smoothing function could be used to compensate for the sampling periodicity.

This mechanism has many other potential sources of inaccuracy. To mention just one, if the PMT thermal jitter exceeds the sampling band width, several discrete, adjacent peaks might be recorded from successive events of the same energy level. Curve smoothing would help reveal such peaks, but could possibly conceal the presence of two closely spaced emission lines. Spectrometric analysis is an art, needing careful interpretation of results and mindfulness of its limits.

magicsound

I follow most of what you say. But when I said that the spikey things don't seem to be noise what I meant is that I think Wyttenbach is interpreting them as genuine spectroscopic peaks.

The data are said to have been gathered over the course of more that 3 hours. I know it is very tough to see the vertical scale on the depicted spectrum ... but full scale is almost 5000 counts. Most of the peaks rise 1000 counts or so above their neighbouring valleys. This all seems to be beyond the realm of stochastic effects you mention.

Also, Wyttenbach displays the following background taken in the same lab with (I think, but am not sure) the same equipment. It is said to be from a far shorter sample (10 minutes, vertical full scale is 26 counts). I don't see much noise here.

Quote from Zephir_AWT

until some experimentalist finds the solely unexpected thermal Casimir force

Thermal Casimir force... Time for me to study up on this relevance

I'm reviewing thermal gradients and thermal harmonics along orthogonal gradients through solid state thermoelectric devices as per Harold Aspden... also Pharis William's unique perspectives.

In the link below I earlier posted Pharis Edward William's thesis in which Pharis uses only the laws of thermodynamics to formulate all atomic/nuclear particle dynamics.

His 2008/13 Navy gas loaded solid state LENR reactor

United States Patent Application

US 2013/0235963 A1 DEUTERIUM REACTOR

Quote from Gregory Byron Goble

Pharis Edward Willims

Created from his unique perspective... worthy of review... may be seen as a starting point for current US works... Hot and Cold Fusion at LCF NASA.

United States Patent Application

US 2013/0235963 A1

DEUTERIUM REACTOR

US20130235963A1 - Deuterium Reactor - Google Patents

Description

• STATEMENT REGARDING FEDERALLY SPONSORED RESEARCH OR DEVELOPMENT
• [0001] $25,000 was received in 2008 from NSWC, Indian Head Division, to design experiments, review reports, and analyze data. The experiments verified heating using powered/granulated fuel.

On point

The current state of LENR

Reviewing past works sometimes helps understand LENR concepts when kept in perspective to more relevant current works. In light of this I consider Pharis Edward William and Harold Aspden as a source for consideration.

On another thread of thought on this forum... and of more relevance to this thread's topic 'The current state of LENR'.

Believe me or not, certainly.

Florian Metzler et al has been working along the 'bottom to top and top to bottom' research direction proposed here by him for a number of years before this You Tube presentation.

At the recent ARPA-E LENR workshop.

A well thought out Edisonion approach to discovery, by Metzler et al.

Experimental study on cold fusion using deuterium gas and deuterium ion beam with palladium

Show affiliations

• Gu, Albert G. ;

Teng, Robert K. F. ;Miller, Mark S. ; Sprouse, Jeff

Abstract

A series of experiments using deuterium gas and low energy deuteron beam with palladium has been designed at Mississippi State University to allow for the observation, if it exists, of cold fusion. Three experiments were performed. One involved the diffusion transient of deuterium gas into palladium. The gas was cooled by liquid nitrogen, and its temperature was permitted to rise to room temperature, changing from near -34°C to 19°C in 75 minutes. A spherical lithium neutron detector, 21 cm from the palladium, gave an audible indication of neutron levels approximately twice the background. A second experiment used a deuterium ion beam (1 kev) which bombarded a palladium target. An average counting rate of 36±6 counts for 2 minutes was measured by a BF₃ tube with a paraffin moderator, 50 cm from the target. The background varied from 1-7 counts for each 2 minutes of counting period and averaged 4±2 counts in 2 minutes. A nitrogen ion beam impinging on the same palladium target produced 6 counts for a 2-minute counting period. A third experiment used a hydrogen ion beam first, then a nitrogen ion beam, finally a deuterium ion beam to bombard the same palladium target. These ion beams had energy less than 1 kev, and created neutron counts in the range of background. The palladium specimens were a piece of foil and a tube which used to be the palladium leak in a neutron generator. These preliminary experiments will be repeated, improved, and extended later.

Publication: Journal of Fusion Energy, Volume 9, Issue 3, pp.329-331
Pub Date: September 1990DOI: 10.1007/BF01059251 Bibcode: 1990JFuE....9..329G 

on point

Thanks Alan and all...

...current state of LENR

Quote from Alan Smith

This is my view on where we are right now.

Quote from Alan Smith

Cold Fusion AKA LENR is a natural process that occurs at some level all around us, deep within the earth and everywhere else in the galaxy. It may explain why (for example) the 'giant red spot' on the surface of Jupiter is hundreds of degrees hotter than it should be, why the solar corona is hundreds of times hotter than the surface of the sun and why some volcanoes produce tritium. Which they really should not.

Is it useful or merely interesting? Useful in the modern context means 'can we make money from it' and 'is it a good career path for a young scientist.' The answer, sadly, to both these questions is 'no'. The death or glory approach to nuclear physics has resulted in 99.9% of the research cash going into giant colliders like ITER and more. Consequently most LENR research labs run on inadequate funding and usually with an ageing workforce.

Can it be made useful? I think it can which is why I am an insignificant foot soldier in a maverick army of perhaps 2,000 people worldwide trying to make it so. When is a matter of budgets and public perceptions of it's usefulness - two things which are closely entangled. I give it another 10 years all being well.

Is there a theory about the mechanism? Quite a few in fact, but gradually

GBGOBLENOTE

Alan quote...

"...the better aspects of these competing hypotheses are self-assembling into something approaching a coherent (no pun intended) explanation that does not involve magic of any kind."

Writing good stories about it might help.

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Was it Einstein who said, "Certainly consider that 'spooky action at a distance' is not proposed as a linear phenomena and cannot be conceived in linear terms... " -gbgoblenoteajoke2022

The gas was cooled by liquid nitrogen, and its temperature was permitted to rise to room temperature, changing from near -34°C to 19°C in 75 minutes.

From Harvard 1990 gas loaded dry cell experiment. here https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF01059251

Perhaps similar at 2021 'Cold and Hot' Lattice Confinement Fusion proposed at NASA GRC.

Relativity

Reviewing their works... the 'Theory of relativity' as it pertains to thermal gradients in metamaterial layers and perhaps low temperature superconducting knock on results... ie clusters of electrons at the speed of light in the lattice channels... food for nano thoughts.

off topic yet of inerest.

Metathermotics: Nonlinear thermal responses of core-shell metamaterials

S Yang, L Xu, J Huang - Physical Review E, 2019 - APS

… lem of heat management is to tailor thermal conductivities effectively. Fortunately, thermal metamaterials have provided a powerful method to tailor thermal … conduction shows a nonlinear (or linear) relation between the heat flux density and the temperature gradient, thus called “…

Google Scholar

The 'Naked City' TV episode starring (yet to be Captain Kirk) William Shatner 1962 titled 'Without Stick or Sword'.

A Burmese Buddhist sailor (William Shatner) seeks revenge upon a ship's captain (Martin Balsam) who refused to pick up the sailor's younger brothers at sea, leaving them to perish.

"Gnadenlose Stadt" Without Stick or Sword (TV Episode 1962) - IMDb

Without Stick or Sword: Directed by Paul Stanley. With Paul Burke, Horace McMahon, Harry Bellaver, William Shatner. A Burmese Buddhist sailor (William Shatner)…

m.imdb.com

Quote from Gregory Byron Goble

bottom to top

Metzler's focus on the sub-ev phonons at the bottom is commendable

but the problem of how the 20000000 ev packets at the top are

subdivided and translated into subev phonon vibrations

without significant observable increases in photons (including gammas) neutrons kinetic fragments etc

has not been addressed in most LENR experiments..

In fission the heat transfer is thought to be well understood..although there may be some assumptions concerning the fission fragments

Quote from Zephir_AWT

And the saga continues: the experiments are becoming increasingly more sensitive - and expensive - but the physicists have stable jobs, they're not forced to correct their theories not least a bit - not to say research more useful things like the cold fusions instead - and everyone remains happy.

I don't understand this.

The physicists are always forced to correct theories as needed to conform better with experiment.

Nor do I see the employment status of physicists as relevant to a serious discussion.

One example of "forced to correct". Dark Matter is an anomaly that needs explanation. There have been and still are any number of hypotheses seriously suggested, and tested, to explain this. Including changing GR.

As soon as one of these pans out we will have different physics. But much as everyone would like new physics, if the experiments say GR holds exactly and dark energy is some previously not understood mechanism that changes galaxy formation (maybe to be revealed soon by James Webb) the whole Dark Matter thing will be explained in a less interesting way.

THH

Quote from Gregory Byron Goble

A third experiment used a hydrogen ion beam first, then a nitrogen ion beam, finally a deuterium ion beam to bombard the same palladium target. These ion beams had energy less than 1 kev, and created neutron counts in the range of background.

Quote from RobertBryant

without significant observable increases in photons (including gammas) neutrons

lots of neutron measurements have been done over 30 yrs without much increase.even though anomalous heat has been observed.

this is probably why Florian Metzler has not really mentioned neutron counts

Quote from Bruce__H

I follow most of what you say. But when I said that the spikey things don't seem to be noise what I meant is that I think Wyttenbach is interpreting them as genuine spectroscopic peaks.

The long spectrum was one of the first done by Russ and is from a highly productive reaction. So in fact it is the fist one from a cold fusion reaction. Also here you need the histogram file to see real line correlation as the software does some interpolation that is useful for single isolated peaks.

The other thing is that you have to learn how to precisely calibrate a spectrometer and also how the calibration shifts with time/temperature. Without a 100'000$ thermally stable device you cannot do long single time measurements as there are always shifts.

Luckily we had highly active reactions so that later 10' was OK and from time to time we could check the range fitting of the instrument. This only takes a minute. We also did add air cooling for the sensor head. But the lab was not thermally stable.

Takahashi's lab is stable for 4 digits post "."!

All this has been needed for early experiments with low activity but is overkill for fast screening of working material. If you have 10 watts per 1x1x1 cm then you need no high tech calorimeter, albeit if would be great to have one. But this would hamper all measurements. Takahashi had about 100 Watts for 3 Kg fuel...

Quote from Wyttenbach

The long spectrum was one of the first done by Russ and is from a highly productive reaction. So in fact it is the fist one from a cold fusion reaction. ...

I'm not sure where you are heading here. Are you saying that you currently do not interpret the spike-like features as spectrographic peaks?

This email from David Nagel is reproduced here with his permission. I think it describes one of the big dilemmas facing LENR research very well. Your comments would be appreciated.

"As a student of LENR for over three decades, I am very interested in scientific understanding of the mechanism(s) active in LENR experiments. The appended paper on LENR theories is evidence of that interest.

A really fundamental question about LENR gets little attention: will LENR be understood using known physics (essentially, the Standard Model) and related known chemistry and biology, or is some new theoretical framework (beyond the Standard Model) needed for understanding LENR? Theories about how LENR works have been advanced by scientists on both sides of that question.

Most of the theories about LENR have employed conventional science. That has been the case throughout the history of LENR. Early in the field, there were also many new ideas separate from conventional physics. Recently, Andres Kovacs, Jurg Wyttenbach and, now, Larens Imanyuel have sought to understand LENR by using theories outside of the Standard Model.

Each of the theoreticians, whatever their bases and tools, is challenged by the very wide variety of LENR data and its variable quality. In my view, they must provide numerical results (a) for comparison with available data or (b) for the design of new experiments. Undeveloped concepts and qualitative ideas will not suffice to achieve a fundamental understanding of LENR.

Currently, it seems that theoreticians who are using more conventional approaches to explain LENR are well ahead of those who are employing alternative theories. Several papers by theoreticians using standard physics include reaction rates, which might be compared with measurements. I cannot think of any LENR papers based on alternative theories, which have produced rates. Most of them are basically only concepts.

It is worth noting that the number of alternative scientific theories in many fields is very large. A compilation of them contains over 2000 pages: https://www.google.com/books/e…l=en&kptab=getbook&gbpv=1 Alternative theories, and their use to understand LENR, are intellectually interesting. But, will that approach pay off with a real understanding of LENR and its various dependencies on experimental conditions?

Assimilating and using any of the alternative theories is hard work. But, someday, the answer to the question above will be known. I am inclined to expect that LENR will be understood using what is now conventional science. But, that might only be a reflection of my limited knowledge and experience.

Davidl

Quote from Bruce__H

I'm not sure where you are heading here. Are you saying that you currently do not interpret the spike-like features as spectrographic peaks?

The spikes are lines that sometimes match and sometimes due to algorithm are slightly displaced. So as said either you have the data and can interpret it or you don't. Everybody that joins research will have access to data. But this needs some credibility, time and money and some valuable experience.