Hydrogen / Oxygen explosion?

For _jim and rob-woudenberg, you both and myself follow theories of LENR based on reduced volume hydrogen atoms (i.e hydrino, or ultra-dense hydrogen). In my case, supermagnetic clusters cause fusion/fission. Energy can be added to atomic hydrogen via a laser or via electrolysis. All of our views suppose some recombination of the electron and nucleus to new states. Does the production of the new states also produce energy? The hydrino theory says yes and the energy produced is chemical. But UDH and supermagnetic clusters says no. Rather, subsequent reaction of UDH or supermagnetic clusters result in nuclear reactions. The energy states for hydrogen in supermagnetic clusters follow this equation E=n²(13.6 ev). Because the spectra are the same, spectra though to be due to hydrino formation is actually due to decay of atoms in a supermagnetic clusters. A supermagnetic state in an atom will have an associated ultra-dense state. The volume of this state is calculated from special relativity ( i.e the dilation of space-time).

The point is that data supports various theories. Further, electrolysis will produce small amount of nuclear fusion/fission. This I have shown by mass-balance and energy balance of a product call Aquafuel.

Quote from zenner

I could try to measure oxygen. Not sure about plasma flashback etc., how to detect? I'm not interested in things that cannot be measured

The volume loss cited in this string does not require oxygen to contaminate the hydrogen, if the hydrogen is contaminated with SG gas. SG gas is a magnetically recombined form of water (an isomer of water) in a gas state. A gas state of water that is not steam. It is not hydrogen and oxygen gas combined.

If your intention with water is a cheap fuel for LENR, then maybe an isomer of water, like SG gas, would be a better starting point? I read where the gas product of electrolysis was placed in a paper bag. The hydrogen will diffuse out but the gaseous isomer of water remains in the bag.

Quote from Drgenek

[...] Does the production of the new states also produce energy? The hydrino theory says yes and the energy produced is chemical. But UDH and supermagnetic clusters says no. Rather, subsequent reaction of UDH or supermagnetic clusters result in nuclear reactions.

Energy output is expected from the formation of ultra-dense hydrogen states: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2021.02.221

Quote

[...] It is possible to have an energy output by forming H(0) from hydrogen gas. This condensation energy will easily be believed to be non-chemical thus nuclear due to its size (of the order of hundred times larger than normal chemical energy output). It may be a large part of the energy which is considered to be caused by so-called cold fusion, as suggested previously by Winterberg [6,7]. Other nuclear reactions in H(0) may be the main processes considered to be cold fusion, with very little of normal fusion products like 4He and neutrons out.

This hasn't been directly demonstrated yet in Holmlid's studies, however.

Quote from can

Energy output is expected from the formation of ultra-dense hydrogen states: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ijhydene.2021.02.221

This hasn't been directly demonstrated yet in Holmlid's studies, however.

Then we will see for Holmid's studies. But with supermagnetic cluster theory suggests the size of hydrogen atom which access weak isospin space is fixed by energy causing weak isospin rotation. I just posted a more complete explanation BLP update - Page 98 - Players - LENR Forum (lenr-forum.com)

Drgenek

I wonder why SG gas is not widely known.

What is your relation to the two inventors of SG gas producing method?

To stay a bit on topic, I am not sure zenner is applying pulsation in his setup.

(as required to produce SG gas).

Quote from Rob Woudenberg

What is your relation to the two inventors of SG gas producing method?

To stay a bit on topic, I am not sure zenner is applying pulsation in his setup.

(as required to produce SG gas).

I don't have any relation to the two inventors of SG gas. Ryushin Omasa is another source of this kind of gas. He has done more to purity his gas of hydrogen. There are many who have produced this type of gas. Often you hear it call brown's gas but few purify it of hydrogen.

Usually, the pulsing is unintended. Both gases and liquids may offer variable resistance due to ionization or gas production in the current path. If you measure the current and voltage pattern of an arc or near arc in an electrolysis cell, as I have, you will see a natural pulsing pattern. If the DC source is produced from AC source without a bunch of effort at smoothing, the voltage varies. The build-up of gas on the electrodes along with non-uniform discharge of bubble causes variable DC. A regular pulse is not required for water to become a gas that is not steam. For example, cavitation can be used to make such a gas.

Drgenek

If I understand correctly SG gas is in fact purified oxyhydrogen.

Regarding pulsation, overvoltage may indeed create pulsating currents during electrolysis. This is also why I mentioned earlier in this thread can 's thread on low voltage plasma electrolysis.

For what it's worth, with a sufficiently large DC overvoltage, current will start pulsating also without a visible plasma (with the plasma having the characteristics of high-frequency micro-arcing). It is possible to indirectly see that from the RF emissions generated. This will usually begin from a threshold after which current will not increase anymore with increasing voltage, but decreases instead. However, even using KOH solution at high concentration and thin cathodes this will be at unusually high voltages (>15V), so it's unclear if it applies to zenner.

EDIT: perhaps more importantly, as the unstable electrolysis approaches the region where it fully turns into plasma electrolysis, it is plausible that some of its products start getting generated as well. Dissociation of water is also possible, or in other words oxygen may start getting generated from the cathode. This was studied by Mizuno et al. several years ago, for example in https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoThydrogenev.pdf

For this to possibly occur at relatively low voltages however it requires a high electrolyte concentration.

If Holmlid's theories are correct sinusoidal low voltage AC should be just as effective as pulsed DC. If both electrodes are pure Fe, then formation of the short lived catalyst FeKOH will occur at both plate electrodes with K(0H) as electrolyte, then we could control the infra-red output (excess heat) by gradually reducing the voltage to some new steady state. I am building a prototype (black granite body) to test this theory out, the granite is used to convert any released protons, muons, or neutrons or X-rays to infra-red. Which is all we want from a prototype which could then be scaled up in a large fusion reactor.

If the result is negative then I will try using K(OD).

Dr Richard*

I suspect that the plan above might not work out as you intend. I think the predominant reaction might end up producing Fe3O4 (magnetite) which will spontaneously down-convert to Fe2O3 (haematite).

Happy to be wrong, it depends on lots of things, AC frequency used, electrolyte concentration, plate current. You would have to do it to know,

Mizuno's study (above) shows we only need 120 V running at a temperature of 75 degrees C to achieve cold fusion! In the UK we have 240 V AC to play with running at 50 Hz mains voltage.

Finding a blacksmith who can do the precise welding is the main obstacle in building a small prototype. I have found one in Trewellard just down the road as long as I say its all for installing a wind turbine (I am building one of the new 600W 3 phase AC turbines directly imported from China). If I told them I was trying to build a fusion reactor they would probably not do the work.

People will cut you a lot of slack in you tell them you are building a hydrogen producer.

So-technically I could run the prototype from the 600W AC wind turbine! Or from the 240 V mains but to do this outside in the back garden is technically dangerous. I need a laboratory to test this out under controlled conditions before I go any further.

Which is a subtle hint that possibly we could collaborate on this - I cannot do it on my own Alan Smith .

I've seen more subtle car crashes. Sadly I am booked solid till midsummer at least with a big analytical chemistry job, which if it goes well will keep the lab running and expanding for a good few years. After that, time for more diverting projects.

zenner

As I mentioned earlier (although it probably got buried in the discussion) it might be possible under certain conditions to produce oxygen at the cathode in limited amounts from water decomposition. This could happen for instance if your operating conditions are not too far from being capable of producing a plasma (high electrolyte concentration, generous voltages, vigorous bubbling, high electrolyte temperature, etc...).

So, more information on cathode geometry, electrolyte concentration, applied voltage could be useful here.

Quote from zenner

About filtering water vapor with paper: what prevents the paper from getting wet and then vapor leaks to the other side? Was that measured to work?

The reference is Water the key to new energy ... by Moray King. Reported as follows on page 98.

The paper bag test: Fill a brown paper bag with the gas and carefully glue the bag shut. Wait 12 hours; the hydrogen vents away. Carefully open the bag. A heavier than air gas remains that can be ignited"

An analysis of the gaseous (non steam) water in Brown's gas suggests "linear water stable in Rydberg cluster" Proc. NPA vol 6 no.2 (2010)

Confirmed excess force and energy from electrically induced explosion in water. See Gary Johnson Proc. 27th IECEC vol 4, 4.335 (1992).

Also see Ryushin Omasa Inventions, Patents and Patent Applications - Justia Patents Search

Quote from Drgenek

The reference is Water the key to new energy ... by Moray King. Reported as follows on page 98.

The paper bag test: Fill a brown paper bag with the gas and carefully glue the bag shut. Wait 12 hours; the hydrogen vents away. Carefully open the bag. A heavier than air gas remains that can be ignited"

An analysis of the gaseous (non steam) water in Brown's gas suggests "linear water stable in Rydberg cluster" Proc. NPA vol 6 no.2 (2010)

Confirmed excess force and energy from electrically induced explosion in water. See Gary Johnson Proc. 27th IECEC vol 4, 4.335 (1992).

Also see Ryushin Omasa Inventions, Patents and Patent Applications - Justia Patents Search

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Also see tungsten welding rod cut in half with cheap hardware store propane torch…