Frank Gordon / Harper Whitehouse - the LEC -collected papers

  • I remember the chemists monotheism not so long ago, whereas today we talk about UV as if it were obvious, the new obvious, I would say.ahaha

    Actually, I'm now quite dubious that VUV is involved - but will try out the test when I eventually get around to electro-pickling a LEC WE...

    "The most misleading assumptions are the ones you don't even know you're making" - Douglas Adams

  • Well, nor me...

    However i think UV energy from stars could be involved onto meteorits to trigger calcium to phosphorous to C, O and N dissociation so to create living bricks we know. As we are staying at IRs rank only visible light wavelength could be enough in the case of LEC for example.

    This is why i expected that wasn't same experiments if you use an open plate rather than a closed tube because light could be hidden in this hypothesis.

    Actually, I'm now quite dubious that VUV is involved - but will try out the test when I eventually get around to electro-pickling a LEC WE...

  • Another try, this time with a black vinyl background...




    Remember, this is only using a UVA tube. However, it seems sodium salicylate is used in professional VUV detectors.

    "The most misleading assumptions are the ones you don't even know you're making" - Douglas Adams

  • Plasmoidal things this is the @Axil@Widom@Larsen way, don't forget you stay on LF you have to believe first in Tarasenko to avoid your crucifixion :saint:


    Well, to link "your" objets with what i said previously they behave in the visible range.

    It should be possible to make fairly large screens - which might react to impacts from plasmoidal Things. ;)

  • If I remember well, Stevenson in his early experiments tested without preloading with hydrogen/deuterium and also the reactor was filled with air.

    Nevertheless there was the voltage effect.

    This likely precludes the theory Ed is proposing.

    Actually, the "dummy" tests that I made (without co-deposition/preloading) didn't generate any voltage or current. However, after the co-deposition/preloading you can get the voltage/current even without hydrogen/deuterium (just air) in the chamber. I think that currently we cannot discard Ed's explanation.


    I also considered the UV/VUV hypothesis, and I already made some tests setting the active WE close to some fluorescent plastics. I have not detected any visible light (by eye only), but probably it is worth to repeat the test with a more sensitive light detector (this setup will closely resamble a scintillator detector, so this should in principle be able to detect something, if the scintillator crystal is directly exposed the the WE, without cover).

    The UV hypothesis can also explain the results from Rout and Srinivasan with photographic emulsion.

    Note that if air gets ionized, the involved UV energy is at least 15 eV, i.e. far UV under 100 nm. I suggested to use He as a gas, to gauge this energy, since it has an even higher ionization energy, around 23 eV.

    Also note that the LEC doesn't work in vacuum, but it was always tested measuring the voltage. It photoelectric effect is present, you should get a current (forced current, if you apply an external voltage), but not a spontaneous voltage.

  • I think that currently we cannot discard Ed's explanation.

    Ed evolved his thoughts with so many before him.


    but probably it is worth to repeat the test with a more sensitive light detector

    yes


    the involved UV energy is at least 15 eV, i.e. far UV under 100 nm

    i'm not sure to link them because electrons resonnoances are involved.


    you can get the voltage/current even without hydrogen/deuterium (just air) in the chamber

    For sure if beta reactions occur.

  • Note that if air gets ionized, the involved UV energy is at least 15 eV, i.e. far UV under 100 nm. I suggested to use He as a gas, to gauge this energy, since it has an even higher ionization energy, around 23 eV.

    I hypothese a dual effect.

    First the photon energy has to be larger then the work function of the CE.

    If that is the case electrons are emitted by the CE, at least first near the surface.

    Electrons present in a gas will lower the ionization energy needed, so I think energies much lower then 15 eV are then required..


    In my experiments I used a 275nM led with a radiation output of 6 mW.

    (Currently you can also buy 245 nM leds and also more powerfull ones, but did not test those)

    This led has a photon energy of 4.5 eV.

    I started with using brass plates, but since they have a work function of also about 4.5 Ev, no effect was seen.

    So I switched to zinc plates which have a work function of 3.74 eV and then measured a Voltage.

    So it would indeed mean that indeed the electrons lowered the needed ionization energy significantly.


    The effect is repeatable, with the uv led off, I measure a Voltage in the microvolt range, when the led is on much higher voltages are measured, depending on the allignment of the different parts of the test set-up even up to 20 milliVolt.

  • So I switched to zinc plates which have a work function of 3.74 eV and then measured a Voltage.

    Did you use zinc for both plates, or only one?


    Note that zinc reacts with oxygen in the air, so there might also be some electrochemical effects.


    Edit: zinc, humidity, and cabon dioxide, also react - so breathing on the plates might have an effect too.


    I also note that Alan Smith has started using zinc for some tests.

    "The most misleading assumptions are the ones you don't even know you're making" - Douglas Adams

    Edited once, last by Frogfall ().

  • Both plates are indeed zinc plates.

    I know that zinc can be oxidized and indeed at some places I already see some light discolouration.

    However effects on the zinc can only be effective if we have also a conduction (ionization) between the plates

  • However effects on the zinc can only be effective if we have also a conduction (ionization) between the plates

    Conceivably, differential oxidation rates between the two plates (is one on the bench?) could shift sufficient oxygen atoms to create a detectable voltage across your meter. It could become a crude zinc-air battery.

    "The most misleading assumptions are the ones you don't even know you're making" - Douglas Adams

  • Conceivably, differential oxidation rates between the two plates (is one on the bench?) could shift sufficient oxygen atoms to create a detectable voltage across your meter. It could become a crude zinc-air battery.

    In a zinc-air battery there is a gel between the electrodes which fascilates the conduction between the plates ehn the gel reacts with air.

    In my set up there is only air between the plates.

  • In a zinc-air battery there is a gel between the electrode

    Yes - that is why it isn't so crude.


    Try wrapping one plate in plastic, and place the other plate some distance away, but allowing air to circulate around it. What is the voltage between the plates in that situation?

    "The most misleading assumptions are the ones you don't even know you're making" - Douglas Adams

  • My interest in Zinc is mainly for corrosion protection on steel counter-electrodes. Also I had never tried plating it before - it's very easy. I am aware of the electro-chemiical artifact dangers it poses so probably it will be superseded or over-plated when we get serious.

  • The effect is repeatable, with the uv led off, I measure a Voltage in the microvolt range, when the led is on much higher voltages are measured, depending on the allignment of the different parts of the test set-up even up to 20 milliVolt.

    This can easily be explained given your experimental conditions: the UV light extract electrons from one of the electrode, so it becomes positively charged. You should verify if you also get a directed (unipolar) sustainable current in the order of uA, or you can get a bidirectional (bipolar) forced current in the order of 100s uA by applying an external voltage of some Volts. I suspect these behaviors will be quite different from a conventional LEC. As I said many times, it is important to measure the current, not the voltage, to study a LEC. Even in the normal LEC, the voltage is a second order conventional effect, the ionization instead, that is the prime effect, is not conventional at all...

  • Stevenson


    Lynn Bowen, new President of the ISCMNS has pulled together a research team for a joint research effort into developing the LEC. 5 labs -including mine- are involved so far. Frank and my ambition is to light a LED from a LEC as this makes a potent image likely to attract more interest than calorimetry or transmutation results. You might consider joining us.


    Here's Frank's comment on this.


    A good initial target application is to use the LEC to provide a light source for more than 1 billion people in the world who still rely on kerosene lanterns to provide light. For this application, a LEC could supply power to Light Emitting Diodes (LED) and when the light is not needed, the LEC could be used to charge small devices. The LEC could be the ideal power source for LED lights. LED lights mostly require a current rather than a voltage. For this reason, LED’s typically have a resistor in series with the voltage source to produce a current with some energy being lost in the resistor. However, a LEC is basically a current source, rather than a voltage source, and the resistor would not be required. Also, one way to increase current output is by increasing the area of the electrodes. The triggering voltage can be achieved by connecting cells in series and when the LEC is not being used for lighting, it could charge a phone or similar application.

  • one way to increase current output is by increasing the area of the electrodes

    Is there any supporting evidence for an electrode current/area relationship, or is this supposition that requires further work to fully establish?

    "The most misleading assumptions are the ones you don't even know you're making" - Douglas Adams

  • Stevenson


    Lynn Bowen, new President of the ISCMNS has pulled together a research team for a joint research effort into developing the LEC. 5 labs -including mine- are involved so far. Frank and my ambition is to light a LED from a LEC as this makes a potent image likely to attract more interest than calorimetry or transmutation results. You might consider joining us.

    Yes Alan, I'm available to design the optimized electronics for energy havesting and battery charging. This approach can minimize the required number of cells (due to either higher efficiency in energy conversion and storage). Of course I can also contribute with my first hand experience with the LEC, if needed. My primary interest in the LEC is purely scientific, and there are still many questions to answer. A very important one is: how much energy can be extracted from the LEC? This is a good and useful way to find the answer. :)

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