Post ICCF24 thread.

Quote from bayak

That's understandable. The question is different - how to get the most optimal one out of this multitude of ways. In my opinion, the key to the solution lies in overcoming the Coulomb barrier by holding the gas on the surface.

In a plasma based LENR system which is the best type of LENR system, the coulomb barrier does not apply.

The LENR reaction seems to have many faces. It is amazing and wonderful that the LENR reaction can exist in a plasma. It is my guess that this ability to function in a plasma is due to the Bose condensation that these plasma systems seem to create. We know that a number of such systems produce transmutation, SAFIRE, Chukanov, Rossi, and the Egely dust system. It is my belief that the plasma based LENR system is the only type of LENR reaction that will produce useful energy going forward because of the destructive nature of transmutation on solid matter.

It is also likely that the SunCell is also a plasma based LENR system.

Quote from axil

In a plasma based LENR system which is the best type of LENR system, the coulomb barrier does not apply.

Coulomb's law is also applicable to plasma. However, if you line up the nuclei and calculate the Coulomb repulsion force in the approximation of three equidistant nuclei, you will notice that the energy barrier has significantly decreased. The picture is similar for plasma nuclei held in a thin double electric layer.

That is right, this is the same for electrons charge, if it will be highly accelerated its charge will become anisotropic.

That means existence of electron clusters.

Because this anisotropy behavior we should rather say condensed electron sheets/plates and not cluster because in the common mind cluster will be "seen" as a ball, that is wrong.

Some people thought about virtual charges to explain these condensed states, however that is wrong too.

Quote from bayak

Coulomb's law is also applicable to plasma. However, if you line up the nuclei and calculate the Coulomb repulsion force in the approximation of three equidistant nuclei, you will notice that the energy barrier has significantly decreased. The picture is similar for plasma nuclei held in a thin double electric layer.

Quote from Cydonia

That is right, this is the same for electrons charge, if it will be highly accelerated its charge will become anisotropic.

That means existence of electron clusters.

I thought you are an engineer! ... We have a 100 year history of CRT (cathode ray tubes) or as common word TV monitors. If electrons would form clusters watching TV would never have been possible...

LENR Forum has become a Gossip place!

The engineer says: relativistic electrons.

Quote from axil

In a plasma based LENR system which is the best type of LENR system, the coulomb barrier does not apply.

Excellent question!

To begin my answer, I'd like to rule out a specific type of system that I believe is probably out of reach to most teams in the field. This would be a self organized plasma operating at high pressure thus requiring high voltage and potentially microwave input to ionize the atmosphere. Simply put, the more gas is there to ionize the denser and more massive the self organized structure can be: allowing for more transmutations (if they are wanted at all), tapping of the vacuum, and drag induced on the vacuum of space.

When it comes to the systems that teams are probably going to be working on, I'd say that there are multiple good plasma based LENR systems. The SAFIRE reactor is a good system that seems to be flexible in both the gas combinations and metal alloys that work. I would say that the only possible drawback is that the self organized plasma is within range to make physical contact with the anode. Thus, at high power, the reactor itself can be damaged and cease operating.

So what would be a potentially "better" system? I would say one that utilizes a self organized plasma that is not within contact range of any component. "Free floating fireballs" are in the literature which have been produced in plasma tubes with one cathode and one anode. They start off at one of the electrodes, start moving towards the center (still attached by a tether), and then detach to be truly free floating. Even though they are produced via electrical input, there's nothing stopping them from being further stimulated with RF or microwaves.

Then of course we come to Kiril Chukanov's devices which use RF or microwaves to create the self organized structure in a resonance cavity and then further stimulate them via additional sources of electrons including Tungsten electrodes or electron beams.

What's so great about all of these systems is that...

- They don't require a ten thousandth the funding of ordinary "hot" fusion reactors.

- They can be built on the small scale to fit a table top.

- They all seem to produce similar phenomenon: one being intense emissions of EUV light.

- They are flexible allowing for various atmospheres, metal fuels (in some designs), methods of further stimulation, etc.

- They can all be adjusted and changed to test all sorts of configurations.

I would say that plasma based LENR systems are not only the low hanging fruit of this field but are the future.

Quote from Wyttenbach

I thought you are an engineer! ... We have a 100 year history of CRT (cathode ray tubes) or as common word TV monitors. If electrons would form clusters watching TV would never have been possible...

LENR Forum has become a Gossip place!

The conditions that usually allow for self organization are engineered out of most systems. For example, consider the ballast used in certain types of lights to prevent the current from going too high, allowing the plasma to adjust it's structure to handle increased current passing through, and eventually go into a pure arc discharge and burn itself out. Difficult to control "out of equilibrium" conditions that can often lead to the failure of components are not usually desirable, so things like TV monitors are made to operate in modes that are safe and well understood. I would say that one possible exception are spark plugs in cars.

In SAFIRE, there is a structure of the plasma called a double layer where positive and negative changes separate. Why this happens is not yet understood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_layer_(plasma_physics)

A double layer is a structure in a plasma consisting of two parallel layers of opposite electrical charge. The sheets of charge, which are not necessarily planar, produce localised excursions of electric potential, resulting in a relatively strong electric field between the layers and weaker but more extensive compensating fields outside, which restore the global potential. Ions and electrons within the double layer are accelerated, decelerated, or deflected by the electric field, depending on their direction of motion.

Quote from Wyttenbach

I thought you are an engineer! ... We have a 100 year history of CRT (cathode ray tubes) or as common word TV monitors. If electrons would form clusters watching TV would never have been possible...

LENR Forum has become a Gossip place!

Sometimes 20th century science is discussed here. But for those who prefer to be confined to dictums of old time classical science the precept of Arthur C. Clarke applies: Arthur C. Clarke formulated his famous Three Laws, of which the third law is the best-known and most widely cited: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”

Quote from axil

Sometimes 20th century science is discussed here. But for those who prefer to be confined to dictums of old time classical science the precept of Arthur C. Clarke applies: Arthur C. Clarke formulated his famous Three Laws, of which the third law is the best-known and most widely cited: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”

I want to make a statement here, but I want to preface it first. Cold Fusion and LENR are not magic. They are physically real phenomena that have been proven via examination of a mosaic of evidence. However, I think many of the anomalous, mysterious observations in nature and the laboratory bench

over the past hundred years are due to "out of equilibrium" conditions producing self organized structures that manipulate matter, energy, and the vacuum medium. The same mechanism that allows for what researchers see in CF/LENR experiments is also responsible for what people have called "magic" in the past.

Quote from axil

In SAFIRE, there is a structure of the plasma called a double layer where positive and negative changes separate. Why this happens is not yet understood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_layer_(plasma_physics)

A double layer is a structure in a plasma consisting of two parallel layers of opposite electrical charge. The sheets of charge, which are not necessarily planar, produce localised excursions of electric potential, resulting in a relatively strong electric field between the layers and weaker but more extensive compensating fields outside, which restore the global potential. Ions and electrons within the double layer are accelerated, decelerated, or deflected by the electric field, depending on their direction of motion.

Due to the work of Aueron Energy Ltd. (SAFIRE) we have learned a lot about the nature of these double layers. Their reactor which is connected to a slew of sensors and imaging equipment has enhanced our understanding of these structures. However, I think one remaining question in the minds of many is the nature of the matter that composes the double layers: is it ordinary or in some exotic form, perhaps "hyperconducting" as Kiril Chukanov calls it or even "coherent." My personal guess is that the same electromagnetic pressure that sequesters the plasma and holds together the structure reduces the degrees of freedom of the electrons (while affecting them in other ways) to make their waveforms overlap to become more like a macro-electron. I would like to say, though, that certainly not ALL the electrons in the double layer are in a quantum mechanical state, only a population of them.

Shane D.  rubycarat  Rob  Alan Smith 7

I think I can still provide a link to this Daniel_G  Simon Brink

QUOTE

Lawrence Forsley

Lattice confinement was pioneered by Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons (though they did not use the term) during their

tumultuous 1989 “cold fusion” experiments at NAWCWD...

Quote

(gbgoblenote NAWCWD - Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division is dedicated to excellence in U.S. military weapons research, development, acquisition, test and evaluation)

... wherein they used a cathode composed of a special type of Palladium (Pd) to absorb the hydrogen isotope Deuterium (D) from heavy water (D₂O). Despite promising claims of nuclear reaction, Fleischman and Pons’ work was ill-received period

(MIT derided the nascent technology by holding a mock wake) and consequently (was) sidelined. - Lawrence Forsley

Quote from axil

Sometimes 20th century science is discussed here. But for those who prefer to be confined to dictums of old time classical science the precept of Arthur C. Clarke applies: Arthur C. Clarke formulated his famous Three Laws, of which the third law is the best-known and most widely cited: “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”

Rule 38

I finished watching a presentation from ICCF-24 that is without a doubt making Aureon Energy Ltd. smile with satisfaction. In the following video, the presenter explain how in a low temperature plasma (which is within the range SAFIRE works) the dissociation and recombination of hydrogen or deuterium atoms allows for coherent states with huge effective energies capable of inducing nuclear reactions. Now, to say something he didn't state specifically: what exact plasma formation offers the conditions he mentions (electrons and ions dissociating and recombining and/or a magnetic field turning on and off with sharp gradients)?

A self organized plasma! In the onion-like double layered self organized plasma, ions and electrons are in a constant state of recombination and dissociation, exactly what he says is required. Moreover, the ion acoustic oscillations with sharp gradients, which would be inducing magnetic fields, can be seen on an oscilloscope. Also, if you combine this with the high density of electrons in the membrane like onion layers of the plasma, you would have a high electron screen factor.

This presentation by itself makes ICCF-24 worth paying attention to!

Hello Shane,

Here is my thinking about Eric Ziehm's presentation. In one side, it shows a Bose Einstein Condensate forming in the zone with the hydrogen/deuterium atoms in the defect. My guess is that according to their theory that regardless how you create these defects (either using the original plating method of Patterson's beads, other electrolytic methods, gas loading, or ion bombardment in a glow plasma) that these defects, due to the BEC formed within, are key. If the BEC is important, it could possibly be so due to the high level of electron screening and potentially electron/ion recombinations and dissociations allowing for high energy levels. So, in my thinking, if the BEC is so critical, why not make a lot more BEC. How could we make more? Potentially, by creating a macro-scale self organized plasma with double layers consisting of a population of electrons in a coherent state. In simplest terms, if the BEC is so important why create little nano-specs of it when you can create larger blobs that you could inject particles (or even entire electrodes) into? I would also guess that another advantage of creating a macro-scale BEC in the form of a self organized plasma is that you could monitor the structure with far more precision (using an oscilloscope to monitor the ion acoustic waves) than tiny BECs inside of nano-particles or under the surface in cracks.

In the 2019 SAFIRE progress report video, the commentator stated that the catalytic event (aka transmutation) according to plasma physics should not have happened.

The facts that are not currently known to the SAFIRE research team is that the SAFIRE reaction is not a plasma reaction, but a Bose condensate reaction. In current science, Bose condensation occurs in bosonic atomic aggregations at temperatures near absolute zero. This is because the aggregation of bosonic atoms can only be confined by these ultra low temperatures where random atomic motion does not exist.

The SAFIRE plasma with a average temperature of 81,000k is a superconducting Bose condensate, which is described by the Gross-Pitaevskii theory.

https://uni-tuebingen.de/fileadmin/Uni_Tuebingen/Fakultaeten/MathePhysik/Institute/PIT/Festk%C3%B6rperphysik/Dokumente/4_Gross-Pitaevskii_theory.pdf

For general information see

Gross–Pitaevskii equation - Wikipedia

see page 12 of the Gross-Pitaevskii theory.

These vortexes called tuffs by the SAFIRE research team will self arrange themselves over the surface of the Bose condensate to equispace.

As Kiril Chukanov has discovered in his research, the plasma cannot be penetrated by anything from our universe: matter, light, or electric current. This segregation from our universe allows the Bose condensate to be contained at any temperature. Here, the face of the LENR reaction takes on a entirely new persona and yet it is the same reaction that P&F discovered.

See the post describing the Gross-Pitaevskii equation for more details

• Aug 8th 2022

If you want to do the SAFIRE research team a service, clue them in on what they are working with.