The LENR Induced Fission Thread

Quote from GRMattson

There's been some posting about nutrinos lately. These can carry a significant amount of energy away from the reaction. And since they are ghost particles they would escape from Papp's engine and could account for the low external temperature of the engine. That also means the neutrons would be less energetic.

Which talk are you referring to? Here in the forum or elsewhere? Alexander Parkhomov puts forward the idea of “cold neutrinos” or “slow neutrinos” driving the LENR reactions, he even says he invented a way to detect them. Bob Greenyer helped him to edit his book in English (Espace.Earth.Human), where the story of this idea and how it came to be is told.

Quote from GRMattson

It was here on the forum.

Make of it what you will. I found the theory of neutrinos and anti-neutrinos convoluted and confused. Don't see how you get much action out of ghost particles.

Ok, then I was right to think about Parkhomov. He has really interesting if controversial results. I do read a lot of Russian papers and find them fascinating due to the lack of any constraint to report things everyone else considers impossible, as transmutations caused in a liquid solution recirculated in presence of a tungsten bulb. I know many think Parkhomov is completely wrong, but no one has disproven him experimentally, most just dismiss him because what he claims is "impossible".

Quote from Curbina

most just dismiss him because what he claims is "impossible".

Seems fair.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

Seems fair.

If you can't disprove him experimentally, is not fair.

Quote from Curbina

If you can't disprove him experimentally, is not fair.

It is disproved by the Universe not falling apart.

Quote from Curbina

If you can't disprove him experimentally, is not fair.

Я брал у него интервьюна 19 ICCF , хотел обогреть Россию, но у него не получится, делайте лучше как я , я всем дам энергию...

Пропан идет наверное M2U00643

Электричество с реактора идет на статор, все очень просто, когда поймешь как образовались шаровые конкреции...

www.youtube.com

Пропан пошел наверное VID 20220912 165622

Пропан я заправил, хорошо работает, дает энергию на статор, как поймать шаровую молнию...

www.youtube.com

Quote from Curbina

If you can't disprove him experimentally, is not fair.

That would be true of many people telling stories that are implausible (alien abductions etc).

It is perfectly fair not to count story-telling without substantive evidence as science, especially when the story-tellers have been asked to provide better evidence (which they could) and refused to do so.

Whether, when somone persists in claiming that is science, you see them as incorrect, uninformed, fanatic, careless, or a charlatan is I guess in the realms of psychology not science?

Quote from GRMattson

Internet data costs money.

?

I pay around USD50/month and get unlimited data- streaming TV and all. I could get it for less, but can't be bothered to shop for it.

Replying to:

Post

RE: Direct Production Of Electricity - Infinite Energy.

[…]

To extent that such exists I wrote it. You can find it in "The LENR Induced Fission Thread" my one and only thread on this site. Let me know what you think.😎

GRMattson

May 16th 2023

Firstly, with all of Papp’s work, you have to treat anything he said about his machines with a ton of salt. Anyone capable of attempting to pull off that ridiculous “high speed submarine” stunt had already thrown away any, and all, credibility. However, his engines are certainly a puzzle, and still worth looking at from an engineering perspective.

Secondly, what is the evidence that there was anything nuclear going on inside the sealed cylinders of his engines? Papp wrote about notional “fusion” processes, as part of his patent, but as far as I know he never presented any direct evidence that these processes were occurring.

As Bob Rohner shows in his (quite watchable) workshop videos – a free piston can be driven down by a brief arc in a trapped volume of inert gas above it. This can be all quite conventional. The supersonic shockwave coming from the nonthermal plasma, arising from the discharge, will cause the piston to move. The plasma will then collapse, and as very little heat has been transferred to the atoms, the pressure in the cylinder will return to its original value – and the piston will return to its starting position, due to external atmospheric pressure.

Bob also showed that for the piston to be driven further (and create a decent “power stroke”), it was necessary to have a rapid succession of arcs – creating a succession of shock waves. However, the gas itself still remained cold during both the stroke and return (as would seem reasonable for a nonthermal plasma process).

I know from past professional experience, working with internal ballistics processes, that people vastly underestimate the forces involved when detonations (as opposed to deflagrations) are trapped. Therefore, I don’t find the catastrophic failure of one of Papp’s engines (say, if the timing had gone awry) and of his poorly manufactured “canon” (due to a stuck projectile), particularly surprising.

All this does not mean that the engines were “fake”. The power to drive them still had to come from somewhere. I’m sure Papp threw in several red herrings, either as deliberate obfuscation, or because he really didn’t have a decent explanation for what was happening (and possibly both).

I’m also sure some people Papp was involved with didn’t give a hoot as to what was really happening – as long as they could make money out of it. However, I don’t think that applied to the two brothers Bob and Tom – who appeared to be genuinely intrigued with the technology, and just wanted to know how and why it worked.

I met both brothers in Thailand and my impression from them was the same as yours that they were genuinely serious engineers trying to replicate what Papp had done.

I just don’t at all get what happened with John and McKubre. Very strange. Papp engine, Stanley Myers water capacitor both deserve more serious consideration in my opinion.

Daniel_G there is an old video clip, on Bob Rohner's website, showing Joe Papp "filling the buckets" with Thorium powder. It was in the workshop at Papp's house - and Tom was there watching the process. Although Papp was using some kind of glove box, the rest of the conditions were certainly not "radiologically safe". Back in my nuclear days, if I had seen that I would have had the entire workshop closed down, sealed for later decontamination, and had the staff hauled-up in front of a safety and disciplinary panel. n.b. The guys in the Thorium lab, at the site I was at, even had to have their urine collected for analysis - in case of possible ingestion (ingestion of alpha emitters can lead to various cancers, as you probably know).

As I mentioned in another thread, a while back, the use of an alpha emitter in an aluminium vessel, in contact with the gas, is a curious feature of Papp's engine. This would be one method of spraying secondary neutrons into the gas - so how did he learn of the technique?

Post

RE: Model Development and Programming Forum

A little aside about Joe Papp, and the source of his ideas…

I always find it interesting to look at how, or where, any particular researcher or inventor could have gathered the information that led to their ideas. Nowadays lots of information is available via a few keystrokes, but in the pre-internet days you really had to have some direct sources of information – either through an area of work, higher education, general publications, personal experimentation, or via friends/relatives.

Joe Papp…

Frogfall

Jan 13th 2023

This is at least one piece of evidence that Papp was attempting to promote some kind of nuclear process within the cylinders of the engine. The problem is, however, that coming from Papp it could have just been another bit of diversionary showmanship.

Quote from Daniel_G

I just don’t at all get what happened with John and McKubre. Very strange

There is a rather sad thread on the old PESN site, from 2012, available on the Wayback Machine. It might put things in a little more perspective:

My Concerns About Inteligentry - by Sterling D. Allan

Sterling Allen is of course another guest of the prison system.

Quote from Alan Smith

Sterling Allen is of course another guest of the prison system.

OT, but He actually called me twice because of my interest in Santilli's "Hadronic Reactors" and invited me to join the free energy movement he was really passionate and obsessed with.

I was completely shocked years later when he actually asked to be imprisoned for his sins. He was deeply troubled, the poor soul.

Quote from THHuxleynew

That would be true of many people telling stories that are implausible (alien abductions etc).

It is perfectly fair not to count story-telling without substantive evidence as science, especially when the story-tellers have been asked to provide better evidence (which they could) and refused to do so.

Whether, when somone persists in claiming that is science, you see them as incorrect, uninformed, fanatic, careless, or a charlatan is I guess in the realms of psychology not science?

I shouldn't have stood up for you...

The hope of a heat engine is to recover mechanical energy from hot gas before the loss of heat and entropy from the system returns the gas to a cold state. If the engine operated in a cycle catalyzed by an electric arc, then the energy for the hot gas comes from the electric supply or reaction. If the energy is electric without reaction, then it isn't likely to produce an over unity effect. If the energy is from reaction, then it is not likely chemical because the gases are inert. If the reaction is not chemical, then the reaction would need to be like what occurs in stars. One might wrongly think nuclear fusion or fission. However, these require the catalysis produce activation energies in the MeV range. (Unless you believe there exists an alternative to overcoming the coulomb barrier). Lucky you. The other process in the stars, that of a blackhole.

That Einstein guy discovered that gravity was related to the speed of light and searched all his life for the connection between light and gravity. He rightly proposed that acceleration from any source will appear as gravity. We have all felt an increase gravity by acceleration in an elevator rising between floors. Electro-gravity is where the electromagnetic force multiplies an effect which is gravity. For now, we will skip the observations and modeling which are evidence for electro-gravity. One can look up Matsumoto in this forum to source that. Briefly, the electric arc catalysis electro-gravity. Electro-gravity leads to fusion and fission at the escape horizon of a planetoid composed of atomic composites which respond to electro-gravity. Obviously, not all composites of matter respond to electro-gravity. The energies at the escape horizon are in the MeV range. There is a thread that analyzes an amazing result from Ed Storms that models the evidence of this point.

So, how does that all work with Plapp's engine? The electric power would catalysis electro-gravity, electro-gravity catalysis fusion and fission on a electro-gravity-based planetoid. Sadly, electro-gravity couples to atomic composites that respond to electro-gravity at 42 orders of magnitude stronger than universal gravity. Electro-gravity blackholes form on these planetoids and can be energetic enough to escape the planetoid. These electro-gravity blackholes literally shear the particles of standard model of which they are composed to a finer form of matter. All blackholes radiate out of existence but electro-gravity blackholes do it at time scale such that they produce a energy source that can develop an image grain by grain. This is what Matsumoto captured on film. Electro-gravity blackholes capture most of the energy and high energy products from fusion and fission caused by electro-gravity. So, the expectation of a wonderful exotic heat source is mostly wrong. Most of what is radiated is matter (a finer form than particles of the standard model) and at energies which are non-ionizing.

However, it still might be possible to recover mechanical energy from the hot gas before the loss of heat and entropy from the system returns the gas to a cold state.