The perpetual “is LENR even real” argument thread.

  • This is a very clear description of how LENR faith works:

    Like the Titanic:

    with selfhypnotised people at the helm?


    After his comments on FF Ascoli has no credibility

    as an openminded commentator

    just one of the more extreme from the peanut gallery..

    although on the plus side

    at least he didnt support with his friend's vendetta against

    Francesco Celani..

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  • Ok, so Al + steel - all that is needed is for these metals to exist in the electrolytic cell at the same potential as the anode. The high-power pulses will potentially do strange things so I'd be careful with any metal potentially in contact with electrolyte or foam. The very high Al content looks very atypical of any transmutation - but very typical for electroplating.

    In these experiments the only metals in contact with the electrolitic solution is that of which the electrodes are made of, and any instrument or sensor submerged as in termocouples. You could possibly blame iron contamination on these because stainless steel is the choice material for instruments and sensors to be submerged in these experiments, but Al, Bi, P, and all others?

    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • In these experiments the only metals in contact with the electrolitic solution is that of which the electrodes are made of, and any instrument or sensor submerged as in termocouples. You could possibly blame iron contamination on these because stainless steel is the choice material for instruments and sensors to be submerged in these experiments, but Al, Bi, P, and all others?

    Aluminium is quite a common metal.


    Bi, P are both used in common metal alloys.


    The point is - as always - believers here are asking skeptics to be godlike and know or guess every single detail of a complex and not fully described experiment.


    I have proposed an (obvious) mechanism for this change in surface properties. It has not been discussed or ruled out in the writeups we currently have, therefore it is on the table and more plausible than widespread elemental transformation which somehow has never been detected in the millions of experiments conducted so far by mainstream scientists.

  • It is widely accepted now by persons familiar with the relevant literature that tritium can be produced in LENR experiments due to the existence of many strong reports by competent scientists of the generation of tritium in such experiments.

    And yet.... Not.


    Because no-one outside the LENR community is researching such transformations - they undoubtedly would if they believed this.

  • Aluminium is quite a common metal

    As long as it is not in contact with the electrolitic solution it being common has no relevance.

    therefore it is on the table and more plausible than widespread elemental transformation which somehow has never been detected in the millions of experiments conducted so far by mainstream scientists.

    Can you clarify of what kind of millions of experiments are you talking about?

    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • Tritium is valuable isn't it? ....are they making commercially viable amounts?

    The evidence in the ICCF24 ppt is a bit indirect - but if as it appears:


    (1) they have tritium gas dissolved in electrolyte at 20Bq/l

    (2) solubility of T2/H2 in H2O is ~ 1.6mg/l

    (3) t has activity 3X10^14 Bq/g

    (3) That means the experiment generates T2 (or HT) gas at a concentration of 4E-11 in hydrogen.


    compare that with the abundance in water (as fraction of H2) being 1E-18


    That is a low concentration and looks no way commercial to me. But maybe I'm wrong. It would be helpful if the stuff was being concentrated from water rather than power plant waste.

  • Yes - any experiment that can detect small amounts of transmutation and has transition metal lattices and H or H+.

    then why you say?

    widespread elemental transformation which somehow has never been detected in the millions of experiments conducted so far by mainstream scientists.

    I ask because AFAIK no one in the mainstream has bothered or even attempted to look for transmutations “because they should never happen”. LENR researchers have looked and found them to be widespread. As Kenneth Shoulders would say: you won’t find what you don’t look for.


    As a counter point, I know of two instances where the original claim of anomaly did not claim any transmutation. One of these instances is the work of Holmlid, that when asked by member of LENR-forum Rob Woudenberg at ResearchGate, you can read what he said:

    https://www.researchgate.net/post/Any_transmutations_found


    The other instance was the work of the cavitation based machine of Bing Juine Huang presented at ICCF 22 and asked if he had looked for transmutations or elemental changes in the copper pipe, which he had not, and then he presented at ICCF23 that he had looked and found dramatic changes in the material, mostly to Carbon. He also replicated the ULTR experiment treating copper foil with an Ultrasonic cleanser and found elemental anomalies in the damaged areas of the foil.

    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • I ask because AFAIK no one in the mainstream has bothered or even attempted to look for transmutations “because they should never happen”. LENR researchers have looked and found them to be widespread. As Kenneth Shoulders would say: you won’t find what you don’t look for.

    So - that is not true. For example, in this case there was a complete change in surface composition. Anyone using surface element analysis would see that, even if not expecting it, and would undoubtedly follow that up.


    Whereas - when you look for something - sometimes you see what you are expecting to see rather than what there actually is.



    Example: in this case you see transmutation without checking for electroplating. A mainstream scientist with the same results would put a lot of effort into checking how the electroplating had happened (and maybe find it).



    As long as it is not in contact with the electrolitic solution it being common has no relevance.


    True, but we do not know what is in contact - so in absence of info its being common makes that more likely!


    e.g. Al support + stainless steel nut & bolt would fit the ticket.

  • So - that is not true. For example, in this case there was a complete change in surface composition. Anyone using surface element analysis would see that, even if not expecting it, and would undoubtedly follow that up.

    Can you point me to anyone that has looked for surface changes in electrodes that also has applied some sort of elemental analysis to those changes in mainstream? Please? No one in mainstream looks for something that mainstream thinks is impossible!

    True, but we do not know what is in contact - so in absence of info its being common makes that more likely!


    e.g. Al support + stainless steel nut & bolt would fit the ticket.

    As long as they are not in direct contact with the electrolite, what you propose is some sort of unknown bordering on magic process of mass transfer that happens without any visual sign of it happening other than you can think of it because in your mind is more plausible than a nuclear transmutation.

    I certainly Hope to see LENR helping humans to blossom, and I'm here to help it happen.

  • Can you point me to anyone that has looked for surface changes in electrodes that also has applied some sort of elemental analysis to those changes in mainstream? Please? No one in mainstream looks for something that mainstream thinks is impossible!

    As long as they are not in direct contact with the electrolite, what you propose is some sort of unknown bordering on magic process of mass transfer that happens without any visual sign of it happening other than you can think of it because in your mind is more plausible than a nuclear transmutation.

    Yes, I am suggesting they are in direct contact but note that electrolyte may foam so anywhere in enclosure can count.

  • Can you point me to anyone that has looked for surface changes in electrodes that also has applied some sort of elemental analysis to those changes in mainstream? Please? No one in mainstream looks for something that mainstream thinks is impossible!

    Curbina - can you prove this is never done? :)


    This is silly.


    But, just on a 10s google:

    Determination of Te, Bi, Ni, Sb and Au by X-ray fluorescence spectrometry following electroenrichment on a copper cathode
    The electrodepositons of Te, Bi, Ni, Sb and Au from aqueous solution of pH=1 on the cathode surface have been studied for X-ray fluorescence analysis …
    www.sciencedirect.com

    http://yildizgroup.scripts.mit.edu/home/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/bilge_ijhe_2008.pdf

    Electrolytic coating of titanium onto iron and nickel electrodes in the molten LiF + NaF + KF eutectic
    The electrolytic reduction of Ti(III) species in LiF+NaF+KF eutectic on iron and nickel, studied using voltammetric techniques, proceeds reversibly in…
    www.sciencedirect.com


    It seems XRF is used a lot to work out the elemental composition of electrodes after electrolysis!


    THH

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