Slide show is from Oct 13, 2013... Before you all get too excited
Edit: it is however interesting to consider that presentation from the perspective that it is 2 years old!
Slide show is from Oct 13, 2013... Before you all get too excited
Edit: it is however interesting to consider that presentation from the perspective that it is 2 years old!
Welcome back Ecco and thanks for the new data!
Piantelli also claims in his latest patent that he can throttle his device by putting a barrier between the nickel and the lithium. Thus some of the excess heat comes from the nickel, some from the lithium.
Could you detail how the pressure varies with temperature in your Li/LAH system?
Do we have a vaccum at low temperatures, and sudden higher pressures when you reach 700C?
Yes, we have tried it and achieved interesting behavior that we want to control.
Unfortunately I am very busy at these days.
On the other hand I have something important and exciting to say. But to be absolutely sure, I have to verify the results…
How do things look? Need some help with the data?
Sometimes people who do business have things called non-disclosure agreements.
Congrats Tyy on reaching 4 lines and avoiding personal attacks. I even gave you a like for it!
Thanks David for coming by.
What is the longest experiment you have run with what looks like positive results?
Have you tested your fuel and ash for isotopic shifts?
How do you supply hydrogen to your reactor?
Have you tried adding Lithium to your Ni-H system?
What is your current relationship with Boeing?
How was your presentation received by the aero crowd?
How about a live open test on collaboration with the MFMP?
Time for another ban? Tyy admits on his blog that he is here to troll. And right now, a large part of the new posts on this forum are just his snarky one-liners.
You can be registered but still be "anonymous". Letting unregistered people post is a bad idea.
I like the quick reply so far; let's see if it's glitchy as longview says.
I'll give a go at answering my own questions as to how, according to Piantelli, hydrogen ions are turned into protons after interacting with nickel. Please mind that I am not a physicist, this is just a layman interpretation of the patents.
1) Nickel preparation
According to Rossi (1):
Quote
QuotePreferably, the nickel has been treated to increase its porosity, for example by heating the nickel powder to for times and temperatures selected to superheat any water present in micro-cavities that are inherently in each particle of nickel powder. The resulting steam pressure causes explosions that create larger cavities, as well as additional smaller nickel particles.
The nickel (primary material) needs to be in the form of nanometric clusters according to Piantelli (2):
QuoteThe active core may comprise a support body made of a metal or non-metal material and a coating of the support made of the primary material, which is in the form of nanometric clusters. The coating of nanometric clusters may be made by a process selected among those indicated in WO2010058288, for example by a process selected from the group consisting of: chemical deposition, an electrolytic deposition, a spraying technique, a sputtering technique.
Seems like it would be interesting looking at P's other patent (3)
Piantelli describes different ways to deposit a thin layer of nickel clusters on the surface of a substrate.
- sputtering
- evaporation or sublimation, then condensation
- epitaxial deposition
- spraying
QuoteAlternatively, the step of depositing the transition metal can provide a step of heating the metal up to a temperature that is close to the melting point of the metal, followed by a step of slow cooling. Preferably, the slow cooling proceeds up to an average core temperature of about 600° C. The step of depositing the metal is followed by a step of quickly cooling the substrate and the transition metal as deposited, in order to cause a “freezing” of the metal in the form of clusters that have a predetermined crystalline structure.
There is an additional interesting step which involves "cleaning" the metal "by applying a vacuum of at least 10−9 bar at a temperature set between 350° C. and 500° C. for a predetermined time." in the presence of hydrogen. Piantelli does this at least 10 times, alternating between vaccuum cycles and an atmospheric pressure of hydrogen.
QuoteIf the substrate and the deposited metal are exposed to a temperature that is significantly above 500° C., the cluster structure can be irremediably damaged.
This last step seems similar to Rossi's preheating of the nickel, but with the addition of hydrogen and the use of vaccuums.
2) Hydrogen treating of Nickel clusters
At this point, Piantelli seems to have brought hydrogen in concact with the clusters, creating an "active core". We then cool the core to room temperature, and apply the following:
a)
Quotea quick rise of the temperature of said active core from said room temperature to said temperature which is higher than said predetermined critical temperature. In particular, said quick temperature rise takes place in a time that is shorter than five minutes.
The critical temperature is normally set between 100 and 450° C., more often between 200 and 450° C. More in detail, the critical temperature is larger than the Debye temperature of said metal.
b)
QuoteDisplay Morean impulsive triggering action selected from the group comprised of:
a thermal shock, in particular caused by a flow of a gas, in particular of hydrogen, which has a predetermined temperature that is lower than the active core temperature;
a mechanical impulse, in particular a mechanical impulse whose duration is less than 1/10 of second;
an ultrasonic impulse, in particular an ultrasonic impulse whose frequency is set between 20 and 40 kHz;
a laser ray that is impulsively cast onto said active core;
an impulsive application of a package of electromagnetic fields, in particular said fields selected from the group comprised of: a radiofrequency pulse whose frequency is larger than 1 kHz; X rays; y rays;
an electrostriction impulse that is generated by an impulsive electric current that flows through an electrostrictive portion of said active core;
an impulsive application of a beam of elementary particles; in particular, such elementary particles selected from the group comprised of electrons, protons and neutrons;
an impulsive application of a beam of ions of elements, in particular of ions of one or more transition metals, said elements selected from a group that excludes O; Ar; Ne; Kr; Rn; N; Xe.
an electric voltage impulse that is applied between two points of a piezoelectric portion of said active core;
an impulsive magnetostriction that is generated by a magnetic field pulse along said active core which has a magnetostrictive portion.
Such impulsive triggering action generates lattice vibrations, i.e. phonons, whose amplitude is such that the H− ions can exceed the second activation threshold thus creating the conditions that are required for replacing electrons of atoms of the metal, to form temporary metal-hydrogen complex ions.
c)
Quotea step of creating a gradient, i.e. a temperature difference, between two points of said active core. This gradient is preferably set between 100° C. and 300° C. This enhances the conditions for anharmonic lattice motions, which is at the basis of the mechanism by which H− ions are produced.
My take: Seems like quite an involved process, but maybe some of this can be applied to replications of Rossi. In particular, providing an impulsive trigger action after reaching whatever temperature produces H- ions in the Rossi Li-LAH-Ni system.
3) orbital capture of H− ions by Nickel clusters
This is what Piantelli claims happens after the trigger action (2). H- are turned into protons:
QuoteSuch energy pulse causes an orbital capture 150 of H− ions35 by an atom 38 (FIG. 3) of a cluster 21. During orbital capture 150 takes an electron 43 of atom 38 is replaced, as diagrammatically shown in FIGS. 4 and 5, part. (a,b). Since H− ions 35 that have been captured in the orbitals 37, 37′, 37″ of the transition metal have a mass three orders of magnitude larger than the mass of an electron 43, step 150 goes on with a migration of the captured ion H− until this reaches the inner layers or orbitals 37′, 37″, with emission of Auger electrons 43′ and emission of X-ray 44, as still diagrammatically shown in FIGS. 4 and 5, part. (c). In other words, capture step 150 goes on with a transformation of H− ions 35 into protons 1H 35′, due to the loss of two electrons by each H− ion.
4) Energy Production
At this point we have 3 options according to Piantelli:
A) Direct capture of the proton by the Nickel atom it interacted with
OR
Quoteif the transformation of H− ions 35 into protons 1H 35′ occurs at a distance larger than the distance that allows the capture, which is about 10−14 m, protons 1H 35″ are expelled due to the repulsive forces acting between protons 1H 35′ and nucleus 38′ of transition metal 19. Expelled protons 35″ have an energy of 6.7 MeV. This calculated value is experimentally confirmed by cloud chamber measurements.
and then we can have either
B) Interaction of the proton with another Nickel nucleus
or
C) Interaction of the proton with a secondary material such as Lithium
Therefore it seems that we would still have production of excess heat without the presence of lithium, and that nickel acts both as a catalyst and a reagent.
According to Piantelli, lithium does make a significant difference:
QuoteTherefore, about 17 MeV are obtained for each reaction between Nickel and hydrogen which generates a proton 1H that interacts with 7Li, while an average energy of 8 MeV would be obtained if the secondary material were not present
Conclusion
IMO, Piantelli's patents provides a much more detailed process in order to obtain LENR. On the other side, Rossi seems to have innovated with the use of LAH, and simplified the process.
Given how Rossi is working on dozens of additional patents that expand upon the current one, it might be wise to look more closely at what Piantelli is preconizing.
In particular:
- pre-treatment of Nickel to form nanostructures
- quick rise of temperature to whatever temperature H- ions are formed (i.e. is it wise to take hours going from 500C to 950C when Piantelli claims that the cluster structure can be irremediably damaged above 500?)
- Piantelli's theoretical hypotheses about where the excess heat comes from can be useful
(1) http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&S1=9115913&OS=9115913&RS=9115913
(2) http://www.google.st/patents/US20140098917
(3) http://www.google.com/patents/US20110249783
FWIW, I believe I've found another version of Piantelli's patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US20140098917
Seems to be a US version of the patent?
Anyway, the interesting part to me is that the drawings are included.
From the pdf, in the Piantelli part:
QuoteThis frame shows the different use of lithium in the two patents: shortly, in Rossi’s, H-Li interaction is thought as the principal reaction; in Piantelli’s, Ni-H interaction (perhaps some H-H interactions) is the first step for a secondary proton (perhaps quasi-neutron too) capture by lithium or boron nuclei.
Some suggested equations are: Ni58 + p → Cu59 + 3.4 MeV Ni60 + p → Cu61 + 4.8 MeV B 11 + p → C12 + 16 Mev
I guess you could also mention some Li equations, even though some have been mentioned in the Rossi part
Piantelli suggest those equations:
QuoteDisplay MoreIn the case of 6Li and 7Li isotopes, the proton-dependent reactions are the following:
H + 7Li -> 8Be(a) + 17.255 MeV {2a} H + 7Li -> 4He + He + 17.347 MeV {2b} 0 H + 6Li -> 7Be + 5.606 MeV {3a}
H + 6Li -> 3He + 4He + 4.019 MeV {3b}
which have probability factors [0], [1], [0], [0],
I am wondering what those probability factors mean 0,1,0,0. They seem to have been rounded to the nearest digit for some reason.
Also would be nice if someone could explain in more layman terms how protons are formed when hydrogen ions interact with Nickel (according to Piantelli).
It's nice that someone is compiling the information from the different patents. I enjoyed the write up.
I would like to complement this with Bob Greenyer's interpretation, posted here:
http://www.e-catworld.com/2015…ew-fire-mk1-bob-greenyer/
Also, now might be a good time to take another look at the Rossi/Cook paper posted based on the Lugano results:
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1504/1504.01261.pdf
7 3Li4+p -> 8 4Be4 -> 2α (17.26 MeV) (Eq. 10) seems to be the main hypothesis for the lithium transmutations
The equation above is also mentioned in the Piantelli paper:
QuoteIn the case of 6Li and 7Li isotopes, the proton-dependent reactions are the following:
H + 7Li -> 8Be(a) + 17.255 MeV {2a} H + 7Li -> 4He + He + 17.347 MeV {2b} 0 H + 6Li -> 7Be + 5.606 MeV {3a}
H + 6Li -> 3He + 4He + 4.019 MeV {3b}
The hangout solution might be a bit awkward for some (less anonymous, having to share cameras/microphones...) but I assume that for more "popular" experiments we will go back to having the youtube+chat as well.
Anyway, great work as always; I'm glad you finally get to test a power meter.
Just read the following in the Piantelli patent, which might be related to throttling LENR:
QuoteIn particular, the step of adjusting the amount of secondary material exposed to the emitted protons may be obtained by arranging an adjustment body between the primary material and the secondary material, said adjustment body comprising a shield body that is movable between a first position and a second position, the two positions corresponding to the maximum exposition and to the minimum exposition of the secondary material with respect to the primary material, respectively.
source: http://www.google.com/patents/WO2012147045A1?cl=en
Secondary material being typically lithium and primary being typically nickel.
Nice run.
Has there been any discussion as to why Rossi would use LAH rather than LiH? Is LiH more of a safety concern?
If all the H from LAH is going to form LiH then what's the point of starting with LAH?
If I understand correctly the hydrogen pressure chart, the x-axis is the mole fraction of LiH within an Li-LiH system. So LiH/(Li + LiH) and not H/Li?
source: http://tempid.altervista.org/j100612a013a.pdf
Also, do I read this right that with a 1:1 LiH:Li ratio, the pressure wouldn't exceed 25^2 Torr = 0.83 bar until a temperature of 900C?
Whereas with no lithium added, we would be on the right side of the chart and pressure would be litteraly off the chart.
So it seems that the added lithium would have a moderating effect on pressure at least until 900C.
Makes sense?
If you check the MFMP facebook page, Brian Albiston is running a live experiment.
He seems to have seen a sudden pressure drop, I wonder if this is the same phenomena you've observed.
Brian Says
"Basics are:
3/8" ID x 12" long tube
2.0 g INCO 255 Nickel - Baked
0.98 g LiAlH4
0.93 g Li
I built a lightly insulated heater which sits inside my calorimeter.
The calorimeter functions by boiling off 500 g of water at a time. COP will be most accurate right before additional water is added."