LENR Calender Member
  • Member since May 23rd 2015
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Posts by LENR Calender

    Yes, we have tried it and achieved interesting behavior that we want to control.

    Unfortunately I am very busy at these days.
    On the other hand I have something important and exciting to say. But to be absolutely sure, I have to verify the results…

    How do things look? Need some help with the data?

    Thanks David for coming by.

    What is the longest experiment you have run with what looks like positive results?

    Have you tested your fuel and ash for isotopic shifts?

    How do you supply hydrogen to your reactor?

    Have you tried adding Lithium to your Ni-H system?

    What is your current relationship with Boeing?

    How was your presentation received by the aero crowd?

    How about a live open test on collaboration with the MFMP?

    I'll give a go at answering my own questions as to how, according to Piantelli, hydrogen ions are turned into protons after interacting with nickel. Please mind that I am not a physicist, this is just a layman interpretation of the patents.

    1) Nickel preparation

    According to Rossi (1):



    Preferably, the nickel has been treated to increase its porosity, for example by heating the nickel powder to for times and temperatures selected to superheat any water present in micro-cavities that are inherently in each particle of nickel powder. The resulting steam pressure causes explosions that create larger cavities, as well as additional smaller nickel particles.

    The nickel (primary material) needs to be in the form of nanometric clusters according to Piantelli (2):


    The active core may comprise a support body made of a metal or non-metal material and a coating of the support made of the primary material, which is in the form of nanometric clusters. The coating of nanometric clusters may be made by a process selected among those indicated in WO2010058288, for example by a process selected from the group consisting of: chemical deposition, an electrolytic deposition, a spraying technique, a sputtering technique.

    Seems like it would be interesting looking at P's other patent (3)

    Piantelli describes different ways to deposit a thin layer of nickel clusters on the surface of a substrate.

    - sputtering
    - evaporation or sublimation, then condensation
    - epitaxial deposition
    - spraying


    Alternatively, the step of depositing the transition metal can provide a step of heating the metal up to a temperature that is close to the melting point of the metal, followed by a step of slow cooling. Preferably, the slow cooling proceeds up to an average core temperature of about 600° C. The step of depositing the metal is followed by a step of quickly cooling the substrate and the transition metal as deposited, in order to cause a “freezing” of the metal in the form of clusters that have a predetermined crystalline structure.

    There is an additional interesting step which involves "cleaning" the metal "by applying a vacuum of at least 10−9 bar at a temperature set between 350° C. and 500° C. for a predetermined time." in the presence of hydrogen. Piantelli does this at least 10 times, alternating between vaccuum cycles and an atmospheric pressure of hydrogen.


    If the substrate and the deposited metal are exposed to a temperature that is significantly above 500° C., the cluster structure can be irremediably damaged.

    This last step seems similar to Rossi's preheating of the nickel, but with the addition of hydrogen and the use of vaccuums.

    2) Hydrogen treating of Nickel clusters

    At this point, Piantelli seems to have brought hydrogen in concact with the clusters, creating an "active core". We then cool the core to room temperature, and apply the following:



    a quick rise of the temperature of said active core from said room temperature to said temperature which is higher than said predetermined critical temperature. In particular, said quick temperature rise takes place in a time that is shorter than five minutes.

    The critical temperature is normally set between 100 and 450° C., more often between 200 and 450° C. More in detail, the critical temperature is larger than the Debye temperature of said metal.




    a step of creating a gradient, i.e. a temperature difference, between two points of said active core. This gradient is preferably set between 100° C. and 300° C. This enhances the conditions for anharmonic lattice motions, which is at the basis of the mechanism by which H− ions are produced.

    My take: Seems like quite an involved process, but maybe some of this can be applied to replications of Rossi. In particular, providing an impulsive trigger action after reaching whatever temperature produces H- ions in the Rossi Li-LAH-Ni system.

    3) orbital capture of H− ions by Nickel clusters

    This is what Piantelli claims happens after the trigger action (2). H- are turned into protons:


    Such energy pulse causes an orbital capture 150 of H− ions35 by an atom 38 (FIG. 3) of a cluster 21. During orbital capture 150 takes an electron 43 of atom 38 is replaced, as diagrammatically shown in FIGS. 4 and 5, part. (a,b). Since H− ions 35 that have been captured in the orbitals 37, 37′, 37″ of the transition metal have a mass three orders of magnitude larger than the mass of an electron 43, step 150 goes on with a migration of the captured ion H− until this reaches the inner layers or orbitals 37′, 37″, with emission of Auger electrons 43′ and emission of X-ray 44, as still diagrammatically shown in FIGS. 4 and 5, part. (c). In other words, capture step 150 goes on with a transformation of H− ions 35 into protons 1H 35′, due to the loss of two electrons by each H− ion.

    4) Energy Production

    At this point we have 3 options according to Piantelli:

    A) Direct capture of the proton by the Nickel atom it interacted with



    if the transformation of H− ions 35 into protons 1H 35′ occurs at a distance larger than the distance that allows the capture, which is about 10−14 m, protons 1H 35″ are expelled due to the repulsive forces acting between protons 1H 35′ and nucleus 38′ of transition metal 19. Expelled protons 35″ have an energy of 6.7 MeV. This calculated value is experimentally confirmed by cloud chamber measurements.

    and then we can have either

    B) Interaction of the proton with another Nickel nucleus

    C) Interaction of the proton with a secondary material such as Lithium

    Therefore it seems that we would still have production of excess heat without the presence of lithium, and that nickel acts both as a catalyst and a reagent.

    According to Piantelli, lithium does make a significant difference:


    Therefore, about 17 MeV are obtained for each reaction between Nickel and hydrogen which generates a proton 1H that interacts with 7Li, while an average energy of 8 MeV would be obtained if the secondary material were not present


    IMO, Piantelli's patents provides a much more detailed process in order to obtain LENR. On the other side, Rossi seems to have innovated with the use of LAH, and simplified the process.

    Given how Rossi is working on dozens of additional patents that expand upon the current one, it might be wise to look more closely at what Piantelli is preconizing.

    In particular:

    - pre-treatment of Nickel to form nanostructures
    - quick rise of temperature to whatever temperature H- ions are formed (i.e. is it wise to take hours going from 500C to 950C when Piantelli claims that the cluster structure can be irremediably damaged above 500?)
    - Piantelli's theoretical hypotheses about where the excess heat comes from can be useful

    (1) http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&d=PTXT&S1=9115913&OS=9115913&RS=9115913
    (2) http://www.google.st/patents/US20140098917
    (3) http://www.google.com/patents/US20110249783

    From the pdf, in the Piantelli part:


    This frame shows the different use of lithium in the two patents: shortly, in Rossi’s, H-Li interaction is thought as the principal reaction; in Piantelli’s, Ni-H interaction (perhaps some H-H interactions) is the first step for a secondary proton (perhaps quasi-neutron too) capture by lithium or boron nuclei.

    Some suggested equations are: Ni58 + p → Cu59 + 3.4 MeV Ni60 + p → Cu61 + 4.8 MeV B 11 + p → C12 + 16 Mev

    I guess you could also mention some Li equations, even though some have been mentioned in the Rossi part

    Piantelli suggest those equations:

    I am wondering what those probability factors mean 0,1,0,0. They seem to have been rounded to the nearest digit for some reason.

    Also would be nice if someone could explain in more layman terms how protons are formed when hydrogen ions interact with Nickel (according to Piantelli).

    It's nice that someone is compiling the information from the different patents. I enjoyed the write up.

    I would like to complement this with Bob Greenyer's interpretation, posted here:


    Also, now might be a good time to take another look at the Rossi/Cook paper posted based on the Lugano results:


    7 3Li4+p -> 8 4Be4 -> 2α (17.26 MeV) (Eq. 10) seems to be the main hypothesis for the lithium transmutations

    The equation above is also mentioned in the Piantelli paper:


    In the case of 6Li and 7Li isotopes, the proton-dependent reactions are the following:

    H + 7Li -> 8Be(a) + 17.255 MeV {2a} H + 7Li -> 4He + He + 17.347 MeV {2b} 0 H + 6Li -> 7Be + 5.606 MeV {3a}

    H + 6Li -> 3He + 4He + 4.019 MeV {3b}

    The hangout solution might be a bit awkward for some (less anonymous, having to share cameras/microphones...) but I assume that for more "popular" experiments we will go back to having the youtube+chat as well.

    Anyway, great work as always; I'm glad you finally get to test a power meter.

    Just read the following in the Piantelli patent, which might be related to throttling LENR:


    In particular, the step of adjusting the amount of secondary material exposed to the emitted protons may be obtained by arranging an adjustment body between the primary material and the secondary material, said adjustment body comprising a shield body that is movable between a first position and a second position, the two positions corresponding to the maximum exposition and to the minimum exposition of the secondary material with respect to the primary material, respectively.

    source: http://www.google.com/patents/WO2012147045A1?cl=en

    Secondary material being typically lithium and primary being typically nickel.

    If I understand correctly the hydrogen pressure chart, the x-axis is the mole fraction of LiH within an Li-LiH system. So LiH/(Li + LiH) and not H/Li?

    source: http://tempid.altervista.org/j100612a013a.pdf

    Also, do I read this right that with a 1:1 LiH:Li ratio, the pressure wouldn't exceed 25^2 Torr = 0.83 bar until a temperature of 900C?

    Whereas with no lithium added, we would be on the right side of the chart and pressure would be litteraly off the chart.

    So it seems that the added lithium would have a moderating effect on pressure at least until 900C.

    Makes sense?

    If you check the MFMP facebook page, Brian Albiston is running a live experiment.

    He seems to have seen a sudden pressure drop, I wonder if this is the same phenomena you've observed.

    Brian Says

    "Basics are:
    3/8" ID x 12" long tube
    2.0 g INCO 255 Nickel - Baked
    0.98 g LiAlH4
    0.93 g Li

    I built a lightly insulated heater which sits inside my calorimeter.

    The calorimeter functions by boiling off 500 g of water at a time. COP will be most accurate right before additional water is added."