Posts by Rob Woudenberg

Quote from Wyttenbach

How far must a kaon fly to produce a pion and afterwards a muon ??? And the pressured tank then must be huge and the cooling gigantic and where to you get the energy out of cooled Hydrogen ???

That is a valid point indeed. Something I forgot to take into account.
I need to dig up some numbers to determine the minimum distance from the UDH source.

B.t.w. shielding kaons must be easier than shielding muons.

This might mean shielding muons that move towards undesired directions can be done easier by kaon shielding close to the UDH source.

Quote from Wyttenbach

But first the physics must be stable and the muons should all run to the same target...

Muon generators can be placed in the center of the pressurized Deuterium vessel:

Of course this is a simplistic approach which probably need a bit more enginering, but this should be much better than the current MK1 powerplant proposal of Norront where 6 muon generators are place around a pressurized Deuterium vessel.

Quote from Wyttenbach

I personally have two favorite reactions.

- The silver based SUN-CELL that had 1 minute self sustain run or the more sophisticated Russian solution call "Swirl flow" reactor.

- The sonofusion Tee-Pot heater. This reaction can be downscaled to kitchen top and delivers heat almost instantaneously.

Interesting choices. Can you telll a bit more about your motivation?
So, you see no options for LENR based on plasmas?

Quote from Wyttenbach

The simpler your setup - just two metals as in Mizuno case - the more delicate is the balance between energy production and H*/D* proliferation. We see many Rossi like reactions that just show one big gamma bang and over!

What SO(4) physics shows is that there is no "real" coulomb barrier. The true problem is to find a pathway to release the fusion energy. With the simple Mizuno setup you have only one mediating step that is D*-D* and a small set of gamma states. The bad thing about this: The reaction only runs optimally in a very narrow temperature band. IF you miss the startup point then it will take a very long time until you breed some isotopes that greatly boost the reaction.

I think we both agree that H*/D* plays an important role in case Nickel is used.

What are the fusion reactions that you anticipate?
Do you think that similar effects take place like described by Holmlid, e.g. release of fast energetic particles, but that besides D-D and D-T fusions also transmutations of the present metals occur?

The other observation that comes to mind is that Rossi seems to have already gone through all the hurdles the past 10 years you indicate.
But now he seems to have a process running based on plasma(s) that at least is more controllable than using Nickel micrometer powders.

Does a plasma form of LENR also fit into your SO(4) model and if so what are the main reactions you anticipate?

Stability and controllability are important when it comes to reliable energy production (and certification).
This is why I prefer the methods of Holmlid/Norront over methods that include the use of Nickel (or similar metals) in an all in one reaction environment.
Holmlid/Norront split up muon production and fusion reactions:

Muons are produced in a low pressure Protium environment.

Fusion takes place in a separate high pressure Deuterium environment.

Quote from gerold.s

Didn't Wyttenbach mention it the other way around .... better coat Pd with Ni .... ?

In the case of a Mizuno implementation he did indeed. But Mizuno's concept does not contain an active catalyst by design (maybe by contamination).

I also see the potential inconsistancy. That is why I created the drawing, so Wyttenbach can comment.

Quote from gerold.s

Where is the activation energy (heat?) fed into system. In the Center?

That is also what I would like to understand.

H*/D* is formed at the contact area between catalyst and the nickel layer.

(Layers not to scale)

Quote from Wyttenbach

The 10 outer Nickel electrons can act collectively what gives a total electrical potential of about 1020eV this is a very good match with the p-p bond found in (D*-D*) and also in H*-H* clusters. This means that nickel can resonantly absorb the energy produced by the forming dense Hydrogen.

Larger clusters of D*/H* can resonantly take over again the energy of the next levels on the way to e.g. D*-D* --> 4-He or Ni+D fusion. The problem with such surface reactions is their limited duration as Nickel only on the surface can store (theoretically) up to 10 Hydrogen atoms. Such a violent reaction will ultimately blow of the outer layer.

A better solution would be to coat palladium with Nickel (not the other way round as Mizuno does and then high H/D load Pd that then continuously feeds the Nickel surface.

It's time that people start to understand the real physics behind LENR and not waste their time with EVO's or strange radiation patterns fairy tales.

We already two years ago predicted from the SO(4) physics model that a high rate of X-rays must come out of such reactions. So no mystery just missing knowledge.

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Quote from Wyttenbach

The ideal LENR sandwich structure would be a styrene or any other H*/D* promoting catalyst coated by a thin layer of Nickel. On top of the Nickel side you place your thick Hydrogen soaked Pd layer. If you use a thinner Pd layer then you can feed Hydrogen to the Pd side while the H*/D* promoting catalyst side is kept under low pressure.

The only part missing in this receipt are the spices needed to transport the fusion energy!

Since this thread is for news only, I created a new discussion thread to discuss LENR according to SO(4) physics. Please join.

This thread is created to discuss LENR suggestions to create LENR based on the SO(4) physics model.

Wyttenbach suggested following structure to create LENR using this model:

Quote from Wyttenbach

The ideal LENR sandwich structure would be a styrene or any other H*/D* promoting catalyst coated by a thin layer of Nickel. On top of the Nickel side you place your thick Hydrogen soaked Pd layer. If you use a thinner Pd layer then you can feed Hydrogen to the Pd side while the H*/D* promoting catalyst side is kept under low pressure.

The only part missing in this receipt are the spices needed to transport the fusion energy!

Quote from can

What normally happens after patent applications receive a classification (here G21B1/19, G21B3/00) is that patent office employees with general knowledge in that area get assigned to handle it. I think it would be expected for a PhD in high-temperature plasma physics to be or have been involved with ITER at some point, or to be following it—it's as mainstream as it gets.

Coincidentally it seems that classification of Holmlid's patent application has recently changed.
I did not find any details yet.

It's easier to break the Coulomb barrier than keep research alive in this field.
Attached the last publication from Etiam Oy.

can You probably remember the (meanwhile granted) patent application of Pekka Soinininen (Etiam Oy).
It contains quite some details of the use of potassium doped iron oxide and alternatives. Maybe useful to have a look at it again.

Quote from fabrice DAVID

https://patents.google.com/pat…ce+david&oq=fabrice+david

Some resemblance with Pyroelectric_fusion.

Made me think of the granted patent application of Pekka Soininen (Etiam Oy) that also describes the use of pyroelectric discharge combined with Rydberg Matter.

It looks like Etiam Oy has been discontinued. Pittyful.
It may be worth re-reading this patent which I brought up in 2014 just after it was published. At that time Holmlid's UDD/UDH works were not yet discussed here at this forum.

This patent has some overlay with Holmlid's method to produce Rydberg Matter, where Soininen proposed ignition of Rydberg Matter by means of electrical discharge. In fact it refers to some of Holmlid's earlier publications.

Quote from fabrice DAVID

This is another patent about direct conversion of LENR to electricity.

No problem with replication of the results, only a total lack of replicators:

https://patents.google.com/pat…ce+david&oq=fabrice+david

Very creative indeed.
Was this proposed technology ever probed by a practical implementation?

This is a good moment to complement you guys with the quality of moderation.

One of the best I've experienced of the many forums I follow/participate.
I am sure most of the members will agree with me.

Keep up the hard and good work! Much appreciated.

Unfortunately this patent application is abandoned, probably with a good reason.

Looking at his other patent applications, he is not active in the LENR field lately. That should tell us enough.......

But its fun reading about unconventional ideas once in a while

Quote from Shane D.

We do have a new report of 2 more successes in addition to Desireless.

Can you share those, please?

Quote from Wyttenbach

The experiment uses cryogenic Deuterium at about 6Bar what is totally inadequate for energy production.

Norront's test reactor description shows a fusion pressure vessel with a heat exchanger, probably aiming for a few hundreds of degrees Celcius.
This is a fusion environment that does not correspond at all with most of the scientific muon catalyzed fusion test data.

I wonder how high the Norront prototype's fusion vessel pressure and temperatures are aimed for.

Too low pressure will require a quite intense muon shower.

Too high temperatures will cause Hydrogen molecules to split into atomic Hydrogen, which is of course a no go for normal operation, but could be used as safety condition to stop the fusion process.

Quote from Wyttenbach

But the muon excess energy in Holmlid case is low. As far as I remember a muon looses at least 3 MeV/ fusions and with 20 MeV you just get - at best - 6-7 fusion events...

Holmlid mentions this restricted number of chained fusion events only in the situation of D-D fusion (ddμ⁺) in his paper

"Existing source for muon catalyzed nuclear fusion can give Megawatt thermal fusion generator" :

In the case of D-T (dtμ⁺) he mentions the number of catalytic cycles are much higher (>100):

This explains also why the proposed proto type μCF reactor starts with only 15 KW en progresses to 1MW over time.

Did you mix up the two different fusion reactions?

Quote from Wyttenbach

May be true for a high energy Muon. But the muon excess energy in Holmlid case is low. As far as I remember a muon looses at least 3 MeV/ fusions and with 20 MeV you just get - at best - 6-7 fusion events...

There are other details I will not discuss and 4 events seem more reasonable.

Well, I guess we have to wait for new (confirmation) data from Norront then.

Quote from Wyttenbach

This makes almost no sense as it is dirty by definition unless only deuterium is used.

For each Kaon produced they get one 4-He but the reaction energy goes into the Kaon/Pions/muons and further kinetic encounters must harvest it. I would try to optimize the UDH production and focus on follow up LENR.

Jurg, we have a conflict of opinions which is ok, but I would like to understand your opinion a bit better.
When I look at the conventional explanation of muon catalyzed fusion each decayed Kaon produces a chain of approx 150 fusion reactions until a reproduced muon sticks to a He atom and the chain reaction is stopped. This is nicely explained in this youtube video.
What should I not accept from this model? What fusion steps are occurring according to your view?

Are you saying that Holmlid's/Norront's focus on muon catalyzed fusion is an illusion?