Antoine10FF Member
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Posts by Antoine10FF

    @Antoine10FF
    Have you considered that the pitch you see evidence for in your analyzed photo is the "beat" between the pitch of the ridges on the outer tube and the pitch of the heater coil?


    The heater coil is 99% likely to be as shown in the patent drawings - a triple wound 3-phase coil that is wound with about 1-2 wire thickness spacing.


    That's a very interesting point, thanks. No I hadn't thought of that. It should be easy enough to test.


    Thaks for your other comment too. I'm aware of the difficulties about visible photometry you mentioned (near IR spectral response, changes of spectral response with different cameras, etc.) I have code that takes into account varying spectral responses, with data for 12 camera models, color space conversion effects, camera color temperature adjustment models, temperature-dependent spectral emissivity for Inconel and transmittance for some kind of alumina.


    I understand that there are large uncertainties about the alumina spectral properties due to composition and texture. My approach is to plug those in and see how they propagate. The output will possibly be an uninformative interval, but it's still an interesting (to me) exercise.


    What is missing is a geometrical model and alumina scattering/absorption. Without going full FEM, I still have to make use of basic parameters for a cylindrical geometry.
    I have no plans about getting into non-visible IR emissions.

    Let's call the wire diameter 1.5 mm for simplicity, it should be close enough for now. Let's say that the coil is tightly wound around D2 for now.


    I'm not sure about the tightly wound part. If you look at figure 10 from the Lugano report, you can kind of see a faintly glowing shape that seems to be wrapped around the core.
    Some creative adjustment of color hues makes it more obvious:



    If this is one heater coil, it only makes three turns.

    We seem to have wandered off the path again..


    Yes.


    Quote


    @Antoine10FF, you say that your model assumed an Inconel core tube. How does a "dummy" core (alumina ceramic) look? I believe that the core tube in indeed alumina, although the contents ("fuel") may alter significantly the attributes compared to a hollow alumina tube.


    Quote


    I hope this helps your model, and if you have the time and are willing, I would be interested to how the above version of construction would affect your model.


    I will look at that when I get back to this, but probably not before
    Sunday.


    So if I understood correctly you are talking about an alumina cylinder
    (inner diameter D1, outer diameter D2), containing the fuel, wrapped
    in three Inconel coils made of wire of thickness d with N turns per
    resistor over the length of the core (20cm). This is contained in the
    outer alumina cylinder (inner diameter D3, outer diameter D3) with the
    (neglected) fins.


    Would you mind repeating the dimensions?


    Also, what about visible emissions from the contents of the inner
    alumina tube? For a metal inner tube, only visible thermal radiation
    from the tube itself needs to be considered. But for an alumina tube,
    transparency must be taken into account.

    These estimates for the wire temperature (unless you believe the strange "shadows" argument) seem perfectly plausible, and compatible with the known surface temperature of the alumina (780C).


    The temperature gradient can be related to the heat flux precisely if the wire helix OD / reactor diameter is known. (The fins complicate things but can be well approximated, since the ratio applies inside a log and therefore does not matter much). However unfortunately the power out comes from both heat flux and radaition from alumina surface, and also direct radiated power out from the wire, so things remain unclear.


    I'm a bit confused by your remark.


    The last plot is about the core temperature, not the wire temperature. I assumed that the core is made of Inconel as well. The case of a dummy core wrapped in radiating coils would be different.


    Also the "shadow argument" was an answer to H-G's objection that shadows are impossible. That simple model indicates that shadows seem possible provided the core is a bit warmer — as expected.


    I tend to agree with the authors of the report when they say that we do see shadows, and that this indicates that the reactor core is likely warmer thatn the heating wire it's wrapped in. That doesn't necessarily imply that there is excess energy production. For example, a skeptic might imagine a case where one of the heating wires is not wrapped helically but is goes through the center of the reactor, providing a "fake heat source".


    Let's not forget that the numbers, calculations, curves, etc. on this thread are preliminary exploration. All of this needs to be cleaned up, verified and written up properly.


    Ideally, we would get an expert in radiative heat transfer to look at the Lugano report and at the various objections. Does anyone know how we might go about this?


    Otherwise, I managed to locate the Olympus Stylus VH-520 I had. This low-end camera has four built-in color temperature settings: "Daylight fluorescent", "Tungsten incandescent light", "Cloudy weather and "Fine weather". I derived transformation matrices between each of those and validated the results using a different set of images, see here: http://i.imgur.com/mfK2B7m.jpeg The columns are almost identical, demonstrating that the effect of the camera color setting can be reproduced. The RMS error is 0.5 to 6.7%. Later I will use these matrices to repeat the Lugano calculations for different possible color settings. This will also provide some uncertainty values. The behaviour may be different for images containing a bright <1500K blackbody. Pointing the camera at wood burning in a woodstove shows the pinky haze similar to the MFMP, but only under some color settings, and I haven't applied the color balance transformation to those images yet.


    Other pictures of glowing blackbodies at a known temperature are welcome. I did look through some of the MFMP videos but all I see is a quarter screen of very low-res Google hangouts, and the reactor is usually completely saturated.

    @Antoine10FF,
    We have a diagram and enough measurements to establish that the outer diameter of the inner tube is close to 1 cm. Using 10 mm instead of 4 mm for the OD, how does that affect the results of your analysis?


    I think the effective emissivity would then be 10/20=0.5 of the inner tube emissivity. The resulting curve would lie between the green and the blue curves in the last plot (which are for an emissivity scaling factor of 0.6 and 0.4). The temperature estimate would be between 825 and 1150°C if we discount skylight.


    It is possible that fig. 12a is actually mostly daylight illuminated.


    Tracing the shadows from the photos, it appears that one of the point light sources is pretty high, maybe 4 or 5 meters. Therefore the room has a high ceiling. Therefore it's not a "typical room." Maybe it's some kind of old work shop, or a converted barn, with high windows, or maybe skylights?


    If the room has large windows, and if the picture was taken on a bright day, the illumination level might have been significantly higher than the 500 lux artificial lighting Iimit I selected. In that case temperatures of 1200°C are plausible.


    Reactor core temperatures below 900°C do not seem compatible with this model.


    Also there is one very important thing that is being overlooked, and that is the visible bulk transmittance, reflectance and thickness of the alumina. That is a major factor. One of the next things to do would be to use the assumed dimensions to estimate that.

    A few quick notes:
    There is supposedly a skylight in the room in Lugano. We were told that it was opened to let heat out of the room.


    That is possible. There is some kind of diffuse, bluish light source that is apparent in some pictures. We could try to estimate the relative illuminance from that light source based on the contrast of the shadows from the point sources.


    Quote


    The purple digital camera colour caused by IR can be easily seen by taking a picture of a TV remote or similar where the LEDs are visible. Active IR LEDs will appear violet in the photo, but unchanged from off by eye.


    I did look into the IR effect last week, and it's true for a lot of cameras, but some others have relatively good IR cut-off filters. Yet I still managed to get purple/pink colors using spectral responsivity curves that were zero in the IR; this is due to the way the channels saturate, and on how the camera firmware produces XYZ values from sensor readings.
    This could explain why the naked wire appears orange in the Lugano images but pinkish in the MFMP images - different cameras, different color balance settings, etc.


    Quote

    Do you mean 4 mm OD for the core?


    Yes, 4 mm OD — but of course there are large uncertainties and big assumptions in all the quantities.


    @Antoine10FF, I may have some inconel emissivity data stashed away in my data files. I'll post what I have once I scrounge it up.


    Meanwhile, I extracted some Inconel emissivity data from "Thermal Radiation Heat Transfer", 5th ed, Howell & al. As usual, the emissivity depends a lot on the material condition, but in both cases it decreases with wavelength. The curve I picked goes from 0.9 at 340 to 0.7 nm at 800 nm.


    Another thing I learned is that blackbody colors below approx. 1500°C are outside of the sRGB gamut:



    This may explain why the MFMP calibration colors are weird and purplish - what happens to colours outside the standard sRGB gamut may be very camera-dependent.


    This is also why I paused working on the camera spectral response. I may resume when I find the little Olympus camera and analyze some fireplace pictures with it, to see what that particular camera does to non-sRGB colours.


    Now I'm just working in the XYZ color space, which is linear. Previous estimates were using the sRGB space, which is highly nonlinear. Those previous estimates are therefore grossly incorrect.


    Now, having looked at reasonable values for indoor illuminance levels, I have determined those to range from 50 lux (quite dim) to 2200 lux (equivalent to overcast daylight). Higher values would be plausible only under special conditions such as operating rooms, etc. — or under broad daylight.


    I have estimated the reactor glow by substracting the XYZ value of the brightest reactor spot (within the "Reactor" zone below) from the average value of the "ReactorDim" region. The XYZ value of the wall is taken as the average of the "WallTop" region.



    The glow from the reactor core is diffused by the alumina tube, thereby reducing its effective (visible!) emissivity. For the cylindrical geometry the effective emissivity should be equal to the ratio of the diameters for an ideal diffuser.


    For any given luminance value assumed for the wall portion, and for any given effective emissivity, there is a single temperature value for the reactor core (whose radiating part I assume to be inconel steel) that matches the ratio measured from the images.


    In the next plot, each curve corresponds to one effective emissivity ratio and gives the relationship between wall luminance and estimated reactor temperature.


    As usual, all of this is rough, unverified, etc.



    If we are to stay within the luminance values one would get from a wall having a reflectivity of 0.7 under illuminance levels of 50 to 2200 lux, we have to use an effective visible emissivity that is one fifth of the inconel emissivity I selected to get Bob Higgins' 1100°C estimate, and then we are stuch with a luminance of 280 cd/m2 which requires an illuminance of 1200 lux.


    As the alumina housing has a diameter of 20 mm, this would imply that the core has a diameter of about 20/5 = 4 mm.


    EDIT: Fix luminance range.

    I think we have to depart from the aim of replicating parkhomov. Just look at how he manipulated his data.


    AFAIK he filled some recording gaps in a temperature curve using "artistic interpolation". He did that by copying and pasting from other segments of the curve, so that the curve appeared gapless. He does say that the average value in these regions matched his manual records. He may have been ashamed about his equipment, or maybe he wanted to avoid unnecessary questions.


    It's unprofessionnal, because the normal behaviour would have been to fill the curve with, say, straight lines and make it clear that there were gaps in the recording but that the values are known from another source. No one would have blamed him. He cut a corner and lost.


    Is there something else I'm not aware of? Because it doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

    I have re-done the coil shadow calculations. It's a PDF to permit usage of equations that do not cause ocular bleeding.


    The estimates are very crude. Really, really crude. And the range I get this time is different, the delta T estimate is lower, around 50 degrees. I attribute this to the use of the XYZ color space (which is linear) and because I integrated the dimensions suggested by paradigmnoia and inferred from the patent. As usual, disclaimers apply... I follow the "release early, release often, and we're amateurs here" philosophy.


    https://mega.nz/#!vwomEQAA!4Y2…b9zblWMVkUncHrmKgtGz9DHDc


    (I used mega as I haven't seen any attachment facilities in this BB. Hope the above link works. Mega warns that the link may disappear after a few weeks. If anyone knows another file sharing service, please let me know.)


    However the conclusion remains the same: for a reasonable delta T between the core and the heater wire, a shadow effect is expected and normal. Thus H-G Branzell's claim that there could be no shadow seems invalid.


    Also, embedding heater coils in alumina has been shown in numerous tests to result in early coil failure or tube breakage compared to those that are at least partially exposed to the atmosphere, and free to expand and contract.


    That makes sense.


    But which patent were you referring to? The latest US one doesn't have any kind of tube drawing. The Italian one is vague IMHO and I don't see any dimensions.


    Based on 15 Ga coil wire, I would expect the air gap to be not much more than 2.5 mm maximum, and no less than 1.5 mm minimum.


    Isn't the coil wire braided? 1.5 mm seems too thin, the glowing wires from the pictures look thicker to me, I would have guessed 3 mm.

    Alumina spectral emittance in the visible

    Based on the measurements from http://web.archive.org/web/200…logies/pdf/1999crd128.pdf after fitting their suggested polynomial model, I get:

    epsilon(lamda,temp) = -0.00001864899582131242*lambda + 1.510506854256884e-7*lambda**2 - 3.1050084175084967e-11*lambda**3 + 0.0006781392396575488*temp - - 1.6184523809523763e-7*lambda*temp - 9.169987667661622e-7*temp**2 + 3.610740627829621e-10*temp**3


    Not sure if extrapolating this to smaller wavelengths or different temperatures is valid.


    Here's a plot showing the extrapolation:



    Next step will be to integrate the spectral emissivity into the camera response calculations. (I am trying to match the MFMP picture, on which BTW the higher-temperature naked coils are saturated.)

    Has this been discussed, or anyone with thoughts on the matter?


    One would Expect that LENR have a different energy emission spectrum than electrical heated alumina.


    The way I think of this is that whatever the LENR emission spectrum is, it is produced inside the reactor core, which I assume is some pressure and heat-resistant material, say some kind of steel. The reactor core would then thermalize the emissions. In the visible, IIRC steel's spectral emissivity is more or less flat, thus we would have a grey body spectrum.


    Quote


    Alumina transmittance and LENR energy spectrum is unkown parameters in the Lugano test.


    [...]


    If there are high energy emission in a part of the spectrum of high alumina transmittance, then this would not be picked up as heat signal, and energy production may actually be underestimated by the Lugano report.


    Yes but let's try to keep the topic on the visible emissions.


    Even in the visible, alumina's optical properties are temperature-dependent, and it is hard to come by data that covers the visible range and the temperature range we're interested in.

    Antoine10FF,
    The cross section diagram should have an air gap where the "alumina?" arrow points, surrounding the inconel. Whether it is actually air is open to some debate. At high temperature, it may be rather rarified in there, or H could be in there to some degree, etc.


    Hi Paradigmnoia,


    Is this a known fact, a good supposition or a guess?


    I think that won't change my calculation above. It would be something to take into account for a finite element model.


    OK so let's try to have a model with a hot core and wires. The thing I'm not sure about is this. The heater wires seem to be wound in a spiral configuration, but are they embedded in alumina? I would tend to think yes, but I'm not sure.


    Also, once a model is running, it is easy to change the temperature of the course to test different hypotheses, including the 1450 C.


    you drew the fuel core that touch reactor core, instinctively..
    Therefore, the fuel is never drawn as touching the wall in Rossi's patent..
    May be it is a central powder pellet...?


    Good point, the label should be changed by replacing "fuel" with "reaction chamber" to avoid making unsupported assumptions.



    Axil, how can you believe this? Look at the few centimeters of the heating wires that are sticking out from the dogbone end caps. They are producing an intense heat glowing like incandescent lamps. They produce the same heat per length unit inside the dogbone but there they are in a more compact spiral configuration. But you believe that they appear as shadows. Just because the stupid Lugano report said so or what?


    That's interesting but you are forgetting the thickness of the alumina. Let L_w be the radiance of the glowing wires. This depends on their emissivity and temperature.


    Inside the reactor, you have (to appease skeptics, allegedly) a source of heat that glows with a radiance L_r, some thickness x1 of alumina, then glowing wires of thickness x2, then some thickness x3 of alumina.


    Ignoring scattering within the alumina, at the surface of the reactor, regions where the reactor glow is not shadowed by the heater wires have radiance


    L1 = L_r (1-R)^2 exp(-C (x1 + x2 + x3))


    where R is the reflectivity and C [cm^-1] is the effective scattering coefficient of alumina,
    and x1 + x2 + x3 is the thickness of alumina, from the glowing reactor core to the surface.


    In the shadowed region, we assume that we only see the hot wires thru a thickness x3 of alumina so that the radiance is


    L2 = u L_w (1-R)^2 exp(-C x3)


    where u is a parameter that varies from 1 to 3 to describe the extent to which the three heaters contribute to the unshadowed radiance; if there was no scattering, because the wires do not overlap, we would have c equal to one. But we can adjust c to partially account for scattering, although c cannot exceed three because there are only three wires. I think u would be closer to 1 than 3.


    Let S = L2 / L1 (< 1) be the shadowing ratio.


    By looking at the red channel of the image from fig. 12a in the Lugano report, I have measured that the wire shadows cause a dip from 1.00 to 0.75 in the signal; the background level measured from alumina nearby at approximately the same illumination angles is about 0.72, so that the signal goes from 0.25 to 0.03, implying S ~ 0.12.


    We have


    S = L2 / L1 = u L_w (1-R)^2 exp (-C x3) / L_r (1-R)^2 exp(-C (x1 + x2 + x3))
    = u L_w / L_r (exp (-C (x3 + (+x1 +x2 +x3)))))
    = u exp(C(x1 + x2)) L_w / L_r


    Therefore


    ln (S L_r / (u L_w)) = C(x1 + x2)


    And thus the first constraint is S L_r / u L_w >= 1.


    Hence L_r/L_w >= u / S


    For u=1 we need L_r/L_w > 8.4 but if we take u=3 we need L_r/L_w >= 25.


    (This is the ratio of integrated, excess radiances in the red channel.)


    If we assume that the wire and the core have the same emissivity, a 75 degree difference if the wire is at 450 degrees, to a 150 degree difference if the wire is at 1000 degrees is necessary to give an 8.3:1 ratio, while these numbers go up to 150 degrees at 450 to 300 degrees difference at 1000 degrees for a ratio of 25.


    According to the latest plots aboveplot below, a 50 degree difference is sufficient to cause a factor of 4× change in the radiance in any of the visible bands.


    For the second constraint, we have x1 + x2 = ln (S L_r / (u L_w))/C
    Based on Yamashita 2008, around 600 nm we have C ~ 2.0.


    A minimum possible value for x1 + x2 would be x12_min = 2 mm.
    Thus


    ln (S L_r / (u L_w)) / C > x12_min


    which is


    u > exp(C x12_min) / (S L_r/L_w)


    For u=1 we get 1.5 / (0.12 * 8) = 1.56 so it is true, and for u=3 we have 1.5 / (0.12 * 25) = 0.5 and it is true by default


    In fact we can solve for L_r/L_w and what we really need is exp(C x12_min)/S = L_r/L_w ~ 12.5


    Therefore wire shadows having a contrast of 8:1 as seen in the Lugano fig 12.a images are possible provided the temperature differential between the heater wires and the core is on the order of 100-200 C.


    EDIT: Black body band radiance ratio plot.


    @Antoine10FF


    In the "Experimental evidence on Rossi devices" thread example above, how is the shadow effect of the heater coils shown in figure 12a and 12b in the Lugano report produced? I do not see coil shadow depicted. Such simulation might be done by using a tungsten rod heater inside the coil to simulates the hot opaque core. Such a configuration properly displays the solid black body heat generating properties of a solid emitting black body that the reactor core would produce. From the Cook report, we know that the core of the Lugano reactor was cemented into a solid aggregation of the fuel. The solid core of the reactor has no transparent emissivity issues associated with alumina. This blackbody radiation behavior does not change between a complete solid filling the core or a tube like coating forming on the inside of the core's surface.


    Hi Axil,


    Those plots make the simplistic assumption that all we have is a glowing blackbody of unit emissivity. Thus there is nothing about coil shadows.
    This would be valid if the whole reactor core was glowing as a grey body at the reported temperatures.


    I like your suggestion of having a blackbody inside an alumina tube. I have no facilities to perform such experiments myself, however I can set up a better model. And, for that, the information you provide on the reactor structure is much appreciated.


    Do you think you can correct or complete the diagram below of the reactor?



    I also found some data about alumina's spectral emissivity in the visible region at different temperatures, and it looks like the visible emissivity increases with temperature. This will also have to be taken into account.


    http://web.archive.org/web/200…logies/pdf/1999crd128.pdf


    Is anyone able to quickly set up a radiative transfer simulation based on the geometry and the alumina emissivity? If not I may attempt to kludge something myself.

    Attached is a useful picture provided by Eric Walker on the "Experimental evidence on Rossi devices" thread. It was a Facebook link, I have copied it to imgur for convenience (hope this is OK with Eric.)



    The description was:



    EDIT: Additionally, I found this document:
    http://www.image-engineering.d…uer_spectral_response.pdf


    It provides carefully measured spectral response curves for a number of different camera models, but not for the 560 UZ (although I came accross that document while searching for Olympus 560 UZ).


    Also, the 560 UZ is an older camera (from about 2007) that has a CCD sensor according to http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympussp560uz
    The Lugano images seem to have been taken with a compact handheld (based on the reflection of the photographer's hand in the PCE-830 screen) and it may therefore have a CMOS sensor (as is also suggested by the fixed pattern noise in the blue channel of the "dark" reactor picture.)