joshua cude Member
  • Member since Feb 17th 2016
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Posts by joshua cude

    Rothwell wrote:


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    me:


    Not exactly. The second panel was given two questions:


    1. ‘Is cold fusion a nuclear effect’: 10 said No, 6 said Yes, and 2 answers were unclear or undecided.


    This is not true.


    Only one said the evidence for nuclear reactions was conclusive. One or two found the evidence compelling but were explicit in stating it was not conclusive.


    The summary document states: " The preponderance of the reviewers’ evaluations indicated that Charge Element 2, the occurrence of low energy nuclear reactions, is not conclusively demonstrated by the evidence presented. One reviewer believed that the occurrence was demonstrated, and several reviewers did not address the question. "


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    2. ‘Should this research be funded’: 3 said No, 13 said Yes, and 2 did not respond to the question.


    This is not true either. None of the members recommended funding outright. They recommended that "funding agencies should entertain individual well-designed proposals... [that] should meet accepted scientific standards and undergo the rigors of peer review".


    That is the job of funding agencies, so it was a sop to the applicants, after a critical review.


    The implication is that the proposal in front of them did *not* meet the necessary standards for the allocation of funds, which was unanimously rejected.

    Rothwell wrote:


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    me:


    Just as globes are meaningless to members of the Flat Earth Society, and evolution does not exist as far as Creationists are concerned.


    Exactly, and if were to offer an example of a scientific truth to a creationist for some purpose, you would not choose evolution.


    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."― Neil deGrasse Tyson


    Quite true, but beside the point.


    "Look what happened when [P&F] claimed in a press conference to have created "cold" nuclear fusion on their laboratory table. Scientists acted swiftly and skeptically. Within days of the announcement it was clear that no one could replicate the cold fusion results that P&F claimed. Their work was summarily dismissed." -- Neil degrasse Tyson

    IH Fanboy wrote:


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    What actually happened, is that they (at least some at MIT) got a chance to examine the evidence, and then alter the evidence, to protect the millions of dollars of annual funding of their hot fusion research efforts, as carefully documented here.


    Even if this claim were true (and I don't believe it), many others examined the evidence -- in particular, two panels of experts enlisted by the DOE -- and found the evidence for nuclear reactions unpersuasive. It is inconceivable that the MIT scientists would risk scientific misconduct by suppressing positive results, because as you've argued, they would expect that the truth would come out, and their careers would be destroyed.


    As for the MIT results, the raw data indicates some 35 mW of power, easily consistent with calorimetry artifacts, which they carefully outlined in an appendix. So, even without the data "adjustment" there was no smoking gun in those results. They're as marginal and noisy as the rest of the evidence for cold fusion.


    BTW, the evidence of data manipulation in favor of LENR by McKubre, as documented by Krivit, is at least as compelling.

    Rothwell wrote:


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    MY:


    Not necessarily. Low powered LENR is real, and it may well lead to a high powered version, if it can be controlled. But it is not widely acclaimed or universally sought after.


    For those of us who reject (or are highly skeptical of) your premise that LENR is real, this is meaningless.


    When the world thought briefly that it was real in 1989, it was widely acclaimed and universally sought after. It lost its acclaim when the evidence failed to support it, and scientists became skeptical of its veracity.


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    History is full of example of useful technologies that were ignored for a long time, or even reviled.


    None that are even close to cold fusion. As Storms has said, were cold fusion to be vindicated, it would be unprecedented.


    I don't know of an example of a legitimate small-scale (bench top) physical phenomenon that was rejected with near unanimity for decades after the experimental evidence for the claim was fully disclosed and widely tested around the world. The closest I have seen is Semmelweis's hand-washing more than 150 years ago, at a time when science moved rather more slowly, before the days of internet publicity, and even in that case, Semmelweis was vindicated in about 20 years.


    When you add the condition that the phenomenon was at first widely accepted with uncommon enthusiasm, indicating the inclination was *towards* acceptance, then rejected with near unanimity, and finally vindicated, I am not aware of *any* precedent

    Wyttenbach wrote:


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    What about the sixty years of hard commitment to hot fusion??


    This is the usual rejoinder. But it doesn't stand up. You have forgotten to take account of (1) the difference in *scale* and (2) the difference in what is claimed.


    (1) The reason the world was so excited about cold fusion in 1989 is because it is orders of magnitude smaller in scale (temperature, size, cost, time, etc) than hot fusion, and so, if the phenomenon were real, exploitation would be realized quickly. Experimental iterations in cold fusion cost in the tens of thousands and take weeks, or months at most. In hot fusion, the cost is billions, and iterations are measured in decades. So, if you divide hot fusion's 60 years by the scale difference (at least 1000), it amounts to a matter of weeks of cold fusion research.


    (2) Since the beginning, the claims in cold fusion have suggested useful products were imminent. The claimed COP has been high enough to support self-sustained operation, and there have been many claims of self-sustained operation. From that to a commercial product is a small step. Pons expected a product within a year back in 1989. In the mid 90s, Rothwell and Mallove predicted we'd be driving cold fusion cars before the end of the decade. Patterson's kW claims of the 90s suggested a viable product. There have been at least a dozen companies formed with the intention of commercializing cold fusion. Rossi claimed he heated a factory for 2 years almost a decade ago, and in 2011 he claimed he had a product ready for market.


    In contrast, hot fusion has never claimed ignition (self-sustained reaction), or that hot fusion products were imminent or ready for market, or that factories have already been heated by hot fusion. The large-scale efforts (tokamak and ICF) have never claimed commercial viability in less than 2 decades, let alone in the present or past. Of course the early speculations have proven to optimistic by a factor of 5 or more, but not meeting a long-term optimistic speculation is different from not delivering something claimed to already exist.


    Moreover, hot fusion has produced unequivocal evidence of nuclear reactions, consistent with well-established theory, and it is not questioned, even by its opponents. And quantifiable progress in increasing the triple product has been steady, if slower than hoped. Under these conditions, and considering the scale of the effort, some patience is not too much to expect. In the case of cold fusion, evidence for the claims is largely rejected, and is contrary to expectations based on consistent, reproducible, and robust experimental results.


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    LENR delivers COP's in the range of 1..600 by now, but yet nothing to buy, except 1MW......


    These are claims with marginal, erratic, noisy evidence that has been examined and rejected by mainstream science. But the claims of high COP is really the point. If the COP were 600, self-sustained operation (infinite COP) would be easy, and that would lead quickly to a viable commercial product. And no, I don't think you or I could buy a working 1 MW cold fusion reactor at any price.


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    Hot Fusion delivers COP's of -100000 to - 100'000'000'000.... [...]


    - (negativ) COP means: You deliberately spoil energy....


    This appears to be a new definition of COP. Using the definition used in cold fusion, the COP in hot fusion is larger than 1. All the input energy eventually ends up as heat, and the evidence for fusion is unequivocal and uncontested, so that means more *total* energy out than energy in.


    Of course, it's not a useful figure of merit for hot fusion. The useful figure is Q, which is the fusion energy out divided by the energy absorbed by the fuel. When the fusion energy that remains in the fuel as heat (about 20% in DT fusion) exceeds the external energy absorbed, the fuel ignites, and the external energy can be turned off. Just like chemical combustion. So, for DT fusion, Q>5 is needed, and they are aiming for Q=10 with ITER. So far, Q=1 has been reached in ICF. They call it break-even, but it's just a psychological milestone, because it does not facilitate ignition.


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    and you will never buy anything.


    I prefer to keep an open mind and not dismiss hot fusion dogmatically. People also claimed heavier than air flight was impossible, even while birds flew overhead. People like Kelvin thought they could refute its feasibility, but fortunately, there were brave scientists who ignored such naysayers, and forged ahead anyway. And now we should all be thankful for the brave hot fusion scientists who reject dogmatic statements of impossibility, even as the sun shines overhead, and forge ahead with their research. One thing the naysayers of flight didn't take into account was human ingenuity and perseverance.


    But then, I'm an incurable optimist. Still, I don't actually expect hot fusion in my lifetime, but I hope future generations will benefit.

    frankwtu wrote:


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    'First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they attack you. Then you win.' - Mohandas Gandhi


    "To be a persecuted genius, it is not enough to be persecuted." - Isaac Asimov


    Or do you think that any idea, no matter how whacky, must be right if someone ridicules it?


    Do you think that hot fusion will eventually win because of the frequent ridicule it receives from cold fusion advocates?

    Ascoli wrote:


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    This is a quite surreal situation, similar to the one in USA, where the DoE deemed the CF/LENR not suitable to be funded, while the DoD has been its major funder throughout a quarter of century.


    Do you have some evidence to support this? You do like to cite things.


    I think most of the funding for cold fusion has come from outside the US, which is why P&F left the country, but in any case, from other than the DOD.


    Toyota spent somewhere between 50 and 100 million on the IMRA labs in France and Japan. The Japanese government put about 25M into a New Hydrogen Energy (?) program. The EPRI funded McKubre to the tune of millions. Utah spent 5M on a cold fusion institute. Kimmel has given 5M to Mizzou, and unknown amounts (probably more) to Energetics before that. And presumably all the startups like Lattice Energy and Jet Energy and Brillouin and others had their angels as well. The ENEA has supported LENR as has the Indian government. And the closely related BLP has got 80M in investment.


    There has been isolated activity sponsored by the DOD as well, but Miles complained he was demoted for his cold fusion work, SPAWAR complained that they had to do their work on their own time and on a shoestring budget. And the budget items for cold fusion I've seen on-line (that someone linked to) were rather small compared to the $500M that Storms estimates has been spent in cold fusion.


    So, it would be hard to justify the DOD as "a major funder" of LENR, let alone "the major funder".

    IH Fanboy wrote:


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    Commercially viable LENR systems is a relatively new possibility.


    In 1989, when much of the world took P&F seriously, commercially viable cold fusion was on everyone's mind. As Storms said, ""many of us were lured into believing that the Pons-Fleischmann effect would solve the world's energy problems and make us all rich." That's why it was such a huge story, on the cover of every major journal, and cheered by thousands of scientists at the ACS meeting.


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    I'm pretty sure that you know that prior to the LENR+ development of the last few years, LENR was basically a lab curiosity with low reproducibility


    The world does not go crazy about a lab curiosity with low reproducibility. Cold fusion was a huge event in 1989 *because* it appeared to offer commercially viable fusion energy. It subsequently became a lab curiosity when the evidence failed to stand up to scrutiny, and nothing in the last few years has changed that.


    And by the way, if by LENR+ you mean nickel-hydrogen, that dates back to the 90s as well with Patterson's kW claims and Piantelli's experiments.


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    (which, by the way, left it in a nice safe comfy place for the trillion dollar energy interests of the world, including the hot fusion academia folks). Now that evidence is emerging from multiple quarters in support of the viability of LENR+ systems, the sleeping dogs are beginning to awake, and foam at the mouth.


    Cold fusion received far more attention in the 90s and even 00's than it is receiving now. In the 90s, the publication rate in refereed journals was 10 times higher than now, and attracted enough attention to warrant a DOE expert panel to examine the evidence in 2004. In 2009, 60 minutes did a story on it. Both ACS and APS ran LENR seminars at their annual meetings for several years around 2010, but have now abandoned them. SPAWAR LENR research was in full swing in the 00s, but has since been shut down.


    What we have now is Rossi making claims that he has not proved, and mostly unqualified people getting excited about it.


    What are you referring to with your sleeping dogs metaphor? I have not seen anything that fits. Surely you don't mean comments in internet forums!


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    The present situation is not acceptable to these folks, because it threatens their financial interests. This is not conspiratorial. It is simply humans protecting turf, which happens all the time.


    The vast majority of people, including scientists would benefit immeasurably from successful commercialization of cold fusion. That's why the initial response to P&F in 1989 was overwhelmingly positive. Most people did not expect that scientists like P&F could get something like fusion wrong, and so they assumed a solution to our energy problems was at hand. The accounts in any journal of the time show this, and the best summary of the excitement of the time can be found in Storms' 2004 book, in chapter 2.


    This completely contradicts this popular narrative of self-interest and greed among scientists and others.


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    Because financial interests are at stake, people are greedy, and academia don't want to come out of this affair with egg on their face.


    What happened in the weeks after the P&F press conference was not that scientists suddenly remembered their financial interests, or that they suddenly remembered that they were supposed to hate clean and abundant and cheap energy. What happened was that they got a chance to examine the evidence, and it simply did not stand up.


    And your example of hot fusion suggests you are not clear on the concept of greed. Hot fusion *costs* money. And the people who make the funding decisions (the DOE in the US) are the ones who have to *spend* the money. Cold fusion is in the interest of the DOE because it would save them billions of dollars, not to mention the environmental, strategic, and therefore political benefits for the government it represents.


    Moreover, the most effective critics of cold fusion have not been beneficiaries of hot fusion (or fossil fuel) largesse.


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    But in the end, nature does not lie, and truth always has a way of eventually being set free.


    Yes, and scientists understand that as well as you, which destroys your argument that they are trying to avoid egg on their face. By opposing cold fusion, they would be *increasing* the amount of egg on their face if it were ever vindicated. That means they must be all but certain that it is not a real phenomenon, and if that is the case, they are well-justified in voicing their view.

    Ascoli wrote:


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    As for the "oil prices" issue, mentioned in a your own quote, you know that it is not a conjecture of mine, but I always referred to these two mails of JR on Vortex:[...]


    So, I let the author of these 2 mail, who already liked your comment, to explain you their real meaning.


    You have missed the point. Maybe it is your poor command of English.


    If I remember, Rothwell simply said that widespread belief in cold fusion would affect oil prices. That is self-evident. My point was that was that you cited that idea as a possible motivation for some entity like the American military (which burns a lot of oil) to hire Rossi to be an "actor" and lie to the public about the functioning of the ecat.


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    The same for the aphorism of Stan Szpak that I found on this comment of him:


    Again, you miss the point. It was the context of your citation of these comments that hinted at the conspiracy theory that I claim is extremely implausible.


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    And finally, on this last point, I would like not to be misunderstood:


    me:


    No, you didn't understand, maybe due to my English...


    I'm afraid your subsequent ramblings about Churchill do not improve the clarity of your ideas. Maybe it is your English.


    Churchill's speculative prediction about fusion from 1931 was wrong. Hmmm. How does that inform the debate?


    And if Leonardo da Vinci had predicted in 1500 that man would succeed at flight in 50 years, would the failure have made a difference one way or the other?

    Ascoli reproducing ECN stuff:

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    TC:


    I don’t know which rational answer he gave. I am very sorry for him, but I cannot dialogue with someone which polemicizes on each single phrase, and considers ridicule or idiot any opinion different from his truth. If you let me know in a proper way the rational answers you are referring to, I will respond.


    Please don't feel sorry for me. I much prefer that you let my rebuttals stand for whatever audience we have.


    But no, I don't consider every opinion different from mine idiotic. But some are whacky.


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    [...] Suppose for a moment that one entity hired Rossi. What better complementary wage than giving him the opportunity to appear as the savior of the world. The same for the professors which cooperated with him, promising them the Nobel prize. To me it seems a more logical explanation, than supposing Rossi going around for finding people willing to praise him and his friends.


    This, for example, is in my opinion a whacky idea. An American entity cannot promise Nobel prizes, nor is there any chance those professors will get a Nobel prize for a phenomenon that doesn't work. Or do you think the Nobel committee can be persuaded to become part of the conspiracy?


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    TC:


    Yes, I see. People who are aware of the ecat story are divided into two parties: those who believe that Rossi has the solution for solving the major problems of the world, and those who say that he is a scammer. But, please, suppose again that Rossi has been effectively hired by someone, don’t you think that this is the best scenario for such an hypothetical entity? Featuring a safe “exit strategy” which fits well with the Rossi’s history?


    Of course, such a division would suit their alleged purpose, but such a division would be impossible in your scenario. All those academics (Swedish and Italian) and the journalists at VOA and elsewhere, and the scientists at NASA and the military, who you have argued are too smart to believe in the ecat, must therefore be pretending to believe in it for the purpose of your theory, and are therefore not in one of the two camps you named. And if it is so obvious that they couldn't be believers, how can their endorsement be effective? How does one ensure that none of them would expose the sham? How would you even approach an academic to suggest he help promote a scientific farce to the world, without taking a risk of exposure?


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    TC:


    Sorry, but I said more than one time that the word “conspiracy” does not fit my view.


    Well, "conspiracy theory" is a pejorative for a reason, and you want to avoid that. But you have argued that many people are faking their belief in the ecat for some purpose, possibly at the behest of some entity or organization. You have called it a machination or an operation. That is, they are conspiring to fool the public. It doesn't matter how many times you say it's not a conspiracy theory, it *is* a conspiracy theory. It's obvious the reason you are so reluctant to describe it in any detail is because the more you say about it, the more conspiratorial it appears.


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    About the facts: if Rossi is a scammer, what about Melich?


    Melich? He's a long-time cold fusion believer. So, in the scam scenario, he also believes (or believed) Rossi's claims. What else?

    Ascoli wrote:



    Either you feign ignorance when it suits you, or you need some help in using the internet.


    I also suggested looking whacky up in a dictionary, and every bona fide dictionary I checked (OED, American Heritage Dictionary, Merriam-Webster (on-line), Dictionary.com (a tab on your thesaurus.com site), the Apple dictionary (which uses the New Oxford American Dictionary) lists whacky as an alternative or variant spelling of wacky. The OED gives quotations of whacky used in this sense from the Economist, and David Lodges novel Changing Places. The American Heritage Dictionary says wacky is a variant of whacky, probably from the phrase "out of whack".


    And even the site you went to -- Thesaurus.com -- asks if you meant "wacky", which upon clicking it, tells you that it is a variant of whacky.


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    Your scope is only to polemize and in order to do that you started quoting my old comments on ecn, giving them your own interpretations,


    No, I quoted them to show that you have frequently hinted that Rothwell and all these scientists, technicians and academicians conspired together to lie to the public for some unspoken purpose, because, as I argued, that is far far less plausible than the scientists either having (had) sympathy for the claims (the most plausible) or being complicit in a scam.

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    me:


    The "some major media" include Popular Mechanics, printed in millions of copy in many English speaking countries, Science&Vie pour la francophonie, and many other magazines readable worldwide (Wired, Forbes, ecc). For the other countries, FWIK, there is NyTeknik in Sweden, and Focus and Panorama in Italy, but if you want a more complete picture you can regularly follow the AlainCo scoop site (3).


    I have the complete picture, and none of that supports a claim of "widely reported in some major media". For that to be true, most people who follow world affairs would be familiar with it, but in fact very very few are. Outside some fringe corners, you would have trouble finding a person familiar with the story, even in physics departments. It's a tiny story. Even Energetics, which made it to 60-minutes is a more familiar story than Rossi.


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    Finally, the most important contribution for the revival of the popular expectations about fusion energy came recently from TIME Magazine, which, in November 2015, dedicated the cover and a long article to the subject, citing also the Industrial Heat.


    Wow! You are scraping the bottom of the barrel. Sure, Time is big time, but appearing in second order (IH) in a list in a story about all kinds of fusion, hardly justifies calling it widely reported.


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    You exaggerate to support your whacky theory ....


    Google doesn't provide me a translation of "whacky".


    Check a dictionary or thesaurus. Preposterous, crazy, loony, that sort of thing.


    And I'm not calling your latest idea whacky -- that scientists sometimes act selfishly. It is the idea that Rothwell and dozens of scientists blatantly lied to prop up the ecat at the behest of some organized entity such as the American military for Machiavellian machinations. If anyone other than you does not think that is whacky, I'm curious who.

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    me:


    In an answer to a similar question on ecn (2), I counted 14 academicians,


    That was in defense of a claim of a dozen who had supported the ecat in some way. Here you claimed dozens were convinced. Of those 14, as I said, only Levi and Focardi expressed certainty. You admitted that yourself in the exchange when you said: "None of these academicians did say that the “Ecat worked”, just declared that they saw a table top device producing many kW in excess with respect to the input power! All of them were also very puzzled about the underlying phenomenon, but some were optimistic that a new physics could have explained it."


    So, they were *not* convinced.


    And since then, the physics dept at UniBo has distanced itself from Rossi in a press release.


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    You should add all the other physicists, or equivalent experts, who assisted at the tests held in the USA, including Melich, and those who declared to be anyway convinced of the reality of some unusual phenomena (excess heat or gamma bursts) generated by the Ecat, for instance Josephson, Celani, and some others at NASA and DoD units.


    You've named 3, without citations indicating they were convinced. That's far short of dozens. (Not that there aren't dozens of sympathizers and dozens of convinced people -- just that credentialed endorsements claiming certainty are far scarcer.)


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    You can also add those who declared to have replicated the Rossi effects, at least those who have some scientific degree.


    In that case, if they were convinced, presumably their own experiments convinced them.


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    And what to say about the people from NASA and other aerospace industries that imagined the future of air transport powered by the Ecat?


    The NASA paper made it clear that it was a contingent plan, and as I remember, it cited LENR, but not the ecat. And it was some pretty low-level guy.


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    me:


    Of course. Nearly all the researchers will say that more researches are needed,


    The point was they stopped short of saying they were convinced by those early demos.


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    me:


    We are talking about LENR device, and hence of the alleged excess heat with respect to any conventional and identifiable energy source. Of course.


    Of course, but it means that simply acknowledging 12 kW does not indicate they are convinced LENR works.

    Ascoli wrote:


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    Deep reasons, ... Even a phenomenon like CF/LENR, whose reality has been nearly unanimously denied by mainstream science a few months after its appearance, can find many individuals and private or public organizations ready to support it in a spontaneous way, each one with his specific motivations and purposes. That's what I meant with diverse reasons. They look as being coordinated, but they are just following a stream, as leaves on a river.


    First, until now, these were unspoken.


    Second, they are very different from your previous suggestions that the US military or some other entity was conducting an "operation", in which Rossi was a hired actor, compensated by funneling money through IH, and given immunity from prosecution. Here are some snippets from various posts to illustrate:


    Ascoli:

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    Suppose for a moment that one entity hired Rossi. What better complementary wage than giving him the opportunity to appear as the savior of the world. The same for the professors which cooperated with him, promising them the Nobel prize. To me it seems a more logical explanation, than supposing Rossi going around for finding people willing to praise him and his friends.... I am aware that many of his claims are not true, but to me he resembles more an actor playing his part....This figure, 12 M$, is special. It’s too high if the ecat does not work and it’s too low if the ecat works. But, minus the expenses, it is just the right reward for seven years working at a senior level.


    Third, suggesting that the reasons are individual, involving vindication or the opportunity to get grant funding or some other compensation, is not different from what skeptics have argued all along, except skeptics allow the possibility that some of them actually believe that LENR or the ecat works. We do not consider professors infallible, as you seem to.


    But now I'm wondering what your point is. The part I object to is your apparent suggestion that Rossi is acting at the behest of some (probably American military) organization, and that his endorsers are blatantly lying to help with his deception. If that's not what you're saying anymore, then maybe we are beginning to converge ... and it's not because my ideas have changed.




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    This aphorism from Stan Szpak (1) describes the situation: "scientists believe whatever you pay them to believe." That's of course an exaggeration,


    Just because someone says something doesn't make it true, especially if that someone is a member of a community you impugn for lying about LENR.


    It's not just an exaggeration... it's nonsense. If it were true, no one would take anything said by scientists seriously. Why would people use scientists to endorse their claims if they simply believe what you pay them to believe. Could you pay a scientist to believe the earth is flat?


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    but it's true that if you need 100 scientist to work on a certain project, and you have the funds, you will find them.


    That's completely different. You can find scientists to work on a project with appropriate funding, but getting them to believe something contrary to the evidence is something else. Many scientists worked on SDI because it offered an opportunity to get funds to do interesting science, even if they were skeptical of Reagan's goals.

    ascoli wrote:


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    me:


    First of all, the ellipsis you use above to replace part of the quote is dishonest.


    This is the full quote:


    me:

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    The alternative that you hint at -- that Rothwell and all these scientists, technicians and academicians conspired together to lie to the public for some unspoken purpose -- is far far less plausible. In fact, it's not implausible at all that the Rossi sympathizers were either fooled or complicit in a simple fraud.


    So you see, I did not suggest you were hinting at complicity in fraud. I said that complicity in fraud is *more* plausible than what you were hinting at, and therefore that you were *not* hinting at complicity in fraud. You changed (a portion of) the meaning of what I said to its opposite, so you could dispute it. Is that your usual mode of argument?


    Ascoli:


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    I didn't say that, and wouldn't hint at that: no conspiracy, no complicity, and no fraud.


    As I said, I did not suggest you hinted at complicity in fraud. In fact, I said the opposite.


    And, yes, you *do* hint at what I say you hint hint at. You say dozens of academicians and physicists are "convinced" by Rossi, but then you argue that they couldn't possibly be convinced by Rossi because they're too smart. So that means you are hinting that they are deliberately lying. And in many places in internet forums you have hinted that this is part of a


    " 'machination'. By a government? I don’t know, maybe simply by some entity well introduced in its apparatus."

    or an "operation". In fact, when I previously suggested you were inferring (hinting) that "the US military is conspiring to keep oil prices down, with Rossi as their main puppet, and professors at UniBo and Uppsala, and businessmen at Cherokee complicit", you agreed:


    Ascoli: "I agree, this is one of the possible inferences, but it requires some adjustment, especially in the terminology. For example, I wouldn’t use the term “conspiracy”, I would prefer something like “operation”."


    We know you don't like the word "conspiracy", but that's what it is. And anyway, I could use your words and call it a Machiavellian machination, and it would not make it any more plausible, and therefore would not weaken my point in any way.


    So, of my statement, we've established the lying part, and the conspiring part. As for the unspoken purpose, well, yes, you pussyfoot around various purposes, but most recently you just said "deep and diverse reasons", so I called that unspoken. From what I recall, the reasons you've hinted at are keeping oil prices down, mollifying the public (even though other conspiracy theorists argue AGW is intended to alarm the public), and if I understand you, to vindicate Churchill's prediction. Not a whit of plausibility in any of it.

    Ascoli wrote:


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    But, until recently, you gave credit to a group of academicians, which claimed some highly extraordinary results which were contrary to the common opinion affirmed by the vast majority of their peers. They, and all the other scientists, technicians and academicians who confirmed the excess heat from the Ecat tests, were not all deceived by Rossi.


    The alternative that you hint at -- that Rothwell and all these scientists, technicians and academicians conspired together to lie to the public for some unspoken purpose -- is far far less plausible. In fact, it's not implausible at all that the Rossi sympathizers were either fooled or complicit in a simple fraud.


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    A single and controversial philosopher can't convince dozens of physicists, that a tabletop device is capable of producing more than 12 kW from only 1 kW in input.


    Dozens? Come now. Levi and Focardi expressed near certainty, but Focardi, as a cold fusion lifer, was desperate for vindication.


    Essen and Kullander were sympathetic, but were careful to say more measurements were needed.


    Who else?


    (As an aside, there is nothing remarkable about a tabletop device producing 12 kW out without any input at all. What you are referring to is a device that produces it from nuclear reactions, and therefore with a high energy density.)


    ETA:

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    There should be some other deep and diverse reasons, so that the most incredible myth in the LENR history got so many exceptional supporters and was so widely reported in some major media.


    Widely reported in some major media? The vast majority of people (at least outside Italy and Sweden) have not even heard of the story. That's not widely reported.


    You exaggerate to support your whacky theory in the same way true believers exaggerate to support their belief that the ecat claims are valid. It didn't work for them, and it doesn't work for you.


    POST EDITED TO REMOVE ALLEGATIONS OF IMPROPER BEHAVIOUR BY THIRD PARTIES. Alan.


    --
    jc response:


    Allegation: a claim or assertion that someone has done something illegal or wrong


    Suggestion: an idea or plan put forward for consideration


    Suggesting someone *may* be complicit is not an allegation. Nevertheless, I have left off the offending *suggestion*, but restored essential content.


    I also submit that Alan Smith himself has *suggested* improper behaviour by IH and the Koch brothers when he "mused" about them being complicit in a conspiracy to suppress cold fusion:


    Alan Smith:

    Quote

    Well, let us just imagine that IH are fronting a conspiracy to surpress - or at least delay the introduction of LENR. For a mere 50 million or so of other people's money they delayed Rossi for 2 years, then came up with another year of testing, recruited as much talent as they can and set up a lab (which means more disruption and delayed projects), and set Brillouin off on a new track which may or may not work. And now they are ensuring everything Rossi-like gets tied up in a new legal battle. While looking like saints and supporters of LENR research.


    I think personally that this is more cock-up than conspiracy - but at the same time you can see how well these years of delay might suit some with vested interests like the Koch brothers just down the road from Rayleigh NC.

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    Cude couldn't get published in any serious journal


    I do hope that's true. It's very sad when journals stoop to publishing endless rehashing of 10 to 20 year old results. These heat helium results have been considered already, and most scientists are satisfied that there's nothing to them. The DOE panel reached this conclusion, and that's reflected in the journals, which have not published any replications of Miles' claims. The few refereed papers on helium are negative, or show helium far below commensurate levels.


    Given this situation, no journal should waste ink publishing more arguments about old results -- especially such marginally significant results. The only thing that should interest journals in revisiting the question is new evidence -- new experiments -- and I won't be involved with those.


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    The sociological problem with cold fusion is that the rejection cascade, the establishment of that opinion of "junk," became established so strongly that even where contrary evidence appeared, it was shouted down.... There was active retaliation against people who dared to support cold fusion. It was considered proof of derangement.


    The wild excitement and enthusiasm of 1989, as documented in detail by Storms, shows where the initial sentiment of the public and the scientific community lay -- strongly in cold fusion's favor. It was when scientists got to examine the evidence that the sentiment shifted to skepticism. During that time, scientists self-interest did not change, their dogmatic instincts didn't change, they didn't suddenly remember that they hated clean and abundant energy. What changed was their perception of the evidence. You can watch Morrison's sentiment change gradually from enthusiastic support to the most effective skepticism over a period of about one month by reading his frequent emails here (allegedly.petebevin.com/coldfusi.html).


    So, it's just excuses to attribute the rejection to sociological problems. I believe on planet Abd, these kinds of excuses are called sputtering...


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    Journals continued to publish, just not the most notable, as Nature and Science, which appear to have an editorial policy against even reviewing papers on cold fusion (after all, why waste the precious time of reviewers?)


    What is this based on? If unequivocal evidence for cold fusion had been available, it would have been impossible to keep it out of either Science or Nature. But it's entirely reasonable that an endless stream of marginal, erratic, noisy, and equivocal results such as have been produced in this field do not deserve serious consideration. Claims of perpetual motion without unequivocal evidence would also not be sent out to reviewers.


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    But there continue to be effects, even though this is shifting.


    I thought it was over in the journals. Not quite, eh?

    Lomax wrote:


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    Reviewing the helium evidence, I have come to the conclusion that helium is being produced proportionally to that anomalous heat, and that this indicates a nuclear reaction which, for communicative convenience, I call "cold fusion."


    Sure, you've said that many times, but you, as someone who did not finish an undergraduate degree, and have little to no experience in research, are not really qualified to make such an evaluation. A panel of qualified experts considered the same evidence and judge the evidence for nuclear reactions *not* to be conclusive.


    If one examines the evidence, it quickly becomes clear that the conclusion you (and some others have reached) is not supported. And that's almost certainly why none of the claims of quantitatively commensurate helium have passed the modest hurdle of peer review, whereas several refereed papers during the same time show negative results. (See below.)


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    This is a testable conclusion, so this is not pseudoscience, but the position that cold fusion is pseudoscience is typical of Cude,


    It's not called pseudoscience because it's not testable, it's called pseudoscience because in the judgement of most experts, it has not passed tests, and yet a small fringe of people believe it anyway. That's the way pseudoscience works.


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    And I published my findings, got them through initially hostile peer review, and they were published in a decent multidisciplinary journal.


    You're parroting Storms, who is citing others, so calling them your findings is a little self-aggrandizing, but then, that's true of a large fraction of what you write. What was your score on that exam again? I've forgotten. And who was your professor, and what was the university you dropped out of again. It's hard to remember if you don't remind me every day.


    Anyway, in your paper that received an initially hostile review, has it occurred to you that between that and the second review, the editor got on the phone and asked the reviewer to hold his nose and let it through, because the paper was invited, and he couldn't really reject it, and it was only going into a low impact journal, and there was a deadline...? I suggest this because you claimed you revised it completely in between reviews, and yet, it reads pretty much like your usual polemic in these forums since 2011 or so, which is to say, it falls well below the standards of ordinary journals.


    Given it's not really a review (like Storms' NW review), but is trying to present an analysis of existing evidence, the fact that the only evidence cited from a peer reviewed journal is more than 20 years old and has been challenged in the literature, by itself makes it sub-standard.


    And when you show a figure to illustrate the correlation, it's not from a refereed journal, but from an extremely sketchy conference proceedings:


    • The data used to calculate the correlation ratio (in that plot) come from only one cell out of 16 used, even though helium was observed in several other cells. Did the ratio not come out right in those cases?


    • What is observed (or claimed) is a steady increase of the helium over a period of 20 days, and a constant excess power of less than 100 mW. Both of these could be caused by artifact -- helium infusion (a leak) to produce the steady increase in helium, and an error in interpreting isolated temperatures to give a small excess power. The result of these two phenomena are that both the total energy and the helium increase together, even if they're caused by two completely independent errors. So the claimed correlation here is meaningless. But more importantly, it's really only one result, but the impression given by the graph is that there are independent measurements. The graph (Fig. 3 in the original proceedings) shows 10 points, but it could have been measured 100 times. That wouldn't make the results more significant because once the observation of a steady increase in both values is established, the number of measurements is arbitrary.


    • In Fig 2, it is shown that the helium measurements for that cell actually continue for another 15 days, and the concentration peaks and then decreases, even while the total energy presumably continues to increase. Why were these additional points not used? Presumably, because they would give a different ratio.


    • The fact that the level saturates suggests helium infusion. The level (as measured) does exceed the putative background value by something less than a factor of 2, but the problem is *measurement* of the background value is not reported, nor is any calibration of the concentration measurement presented. So, it's possible the levels are off a little, or that the background is elevated. Miles reported earlier that the helium background in their lab was twice the normal background, which is not surprising given the usual presence of helium cryogenics and helium glove-boxes in physics labs.


    • The estimate of excess power was not made using any kind of reliable *calorimetry*, but by the measurement of isolated temperatures, and by methods that are not described in any detail. This kind of determination of excess power was shown to be seriously flawed in CERN's replication of the Piantelli work, where CERN attributed the apparent excess power to changes in the thermal properties of the nickel caused by hydrogen absorption. And they were claiming tens of watts. Here, only about 90 mW is claimed, so that result has little credibility. Furthermore, determinations of excess power were not reported for any of the other cells, and in particular the cells that showed no helium.


    The document from which these data come is woefully inadequate as a scientific report, and a careful reviewer would not have allowed conclusions like yours to be based on it. Much is left out, and many questions are unanswered. If that's the best McKubre can do, or if he doesn't have good answers to those questions, it's not surprising that the work was never published in a proper journal, and for the same reason, it is completely unjustified to use the data from a single dubious cell to comprise more than half of the data points contributing to Storms helium ratio in the 2010 review.


    And then there is the question of the number of reports, and of ignoring negative reports. You refer to Storms' NW paper, which claims a dozen "confirmations" of Miles results. But now you claim there are 30 groups, except that your reader needs access to Storms' newest book (not in many libraries) to see what they are. This kind of second-order citation is little better than hearsay. I'd like to see the list of 30 groups, because even in the original 12, most cannot be considered confirmation of Miles quantitative claims, and half don't even show a positive correlation:


    Two of the groups (Chien and Botta) did not even measure heat. How can you get a correlation between heat and helium, if you don't measure heat?


    Two groups (Aoki and Takahashi) report results that suggest an anti-correlation; another group (Luch) has continued experiments until recently, but stopped reporting helium; two groups (Arata and DeNinno) do not claim a quantitative correlation, but in one case (Arata) the helium levels seem orders of magnitude too low to account for the heat, although extracting information from his papers is difficult, and in the other (DeNinno) the helium level is an order of magnitude too high.


    The only results since Miles that Storms has deemed worthwhile (i.e. cherry-picked) to calculate energy correlation come from unrefereed experiments.


    Your paper fails to mention that Gozzi, in a refereed paper admitted that the helium levels were not definitive. Neither you nor Storms cite *refereed* papers by Clarke that failed to detect helium in experiments that showed excess heat. (Actually Storms cites one of Clarke's papers in the context of tritium, but neglects to mention that no helium-4 was found. Hmm)


    So, to sum up, after Miles' papers which had ratios that varied by an order of magnitude between analyses, and were challenged in the literature, all the evidence used to generate a heat helium ratio come from unrefereed papers, and *every* refereed paper on helium is negative: Gozzi, who said helium was not definitive, Arata, who showed helium levels a million times too low, and Clarke, who did not detect helium above background.


    You're lucky I wasn't reviewing your paper.

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    Rothwell: Some other people, on the other hand, were either fired or threatened with being fired. You do not know who they are, because they stopped doing the research and never reported. Because if they had reported, they would be fired.


    I know who they are because I have heard from them.


    I listed many academics involved in cold fusion who were not fired. There are far far more. You have not named one tenured professor who was fired for working on cold fusion.


    There may be some who were threatened, but frankly, I don't believe they were threatened with firing. You said there were some who were fired and didn't report it for fear of being fired. I think you misspoke.


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    Many other people applied for funding and were turned down. That is the normal outcome.


    It happens in all fields. From the quality of research I've seen in the field, anyone who applied for funding in cold fusion after say 1991, should have been turned down. But as it happens, many were funded, and P&F to the tune of $50M. Utah got $5M, and SRI (McKubre) got quite a bit from EPRI. The Japanese government and ENEA and the Indian government all funded cold fusion. Storms adds it up to some $500M. And to no avail. There has been zero progress in the field.