Argon New Member
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Posts by Argon

    The conspiratorial excuse making just enables people like AR to continue their scams. There is no excuse for avoiding a proper test (even a black box test). The question here is whether me356 will allow the data to speak or will he veer off into conspiratorial excuse making?


    I could agree you if me365 would be scientist doing 'just ' research claiming 'breaktrough', but I think he has indicated that he want to also get payout from his efforts, which is more than understandable. So since he has now turned to business mode, go to market plan is the one that says at which point it is meaningful to go to public testing. You should have something for next steps if tests proves good results. As he said we might be close to that point, but me356 must be also aware of the amount of hassle after word about possible positive independent test results spreads wider. I also share the view that Hans has in his comment above, just adding that this long pause in me365 postings tells me that he has been considering how this next steps should be done instead of bragging or looking for attention (as opposite to JONP strategy).

    I have no problem without opinion waiting to see independently proven what he has, until that i'm sitting on fence as I do with Rossi, Brillouin, Thorium younameit. (moderators: I have no problem on continuing this on playground thread as long as you add note and link here)

    Pressure against me356 to reveal his valuable secrets and importance to jump into big boys wagon started here immediately...
      me356 : Be smart and calm enough and read Rossi vs. Darden thread carefully as warning example. Think again if someone says you should team up with companies whose only asset is capital and greedy sharks. Business valuation is something that entrepreneurs usually don't seem to know well enough.


    In real world there is not such law that organic growth path would be totally impossible. With this huge opportunities, and future promise, even growdfunding (like indiegogo, fundedbyme etc) could be possible after successful 3rd party validation and public demonstrations and so on. You would need that only for initial phase, and after your product is already proven in the market to some extent THEN you have those bigger options like listing to public stock exchange or even sharks (BUT this time with totally different valuation since they project your business on NEXT 3-5 years, projected from day you ask for funding). Remember licensing can also be negotiated for limited time, market etc. only...

    There is also lots of false information about IPR and patenting. True you don't always can patent what you thought to be patentable, or Bob Greenyer has already published lots of stuff. Your claims can also be circled around by tiny changes, but in the other hand there is sometimes surprising(ly genral) claims you can use to cover your invention. For that I see good to use solid patent engineer to help you dig out correct claims and wording (Equally difficult work, but money way better spent than for lawyers like Rossi-IH does now).


    There are also great companies connecting people with high ethical standards in the North if you want to take that path. I even have seen a few.

    Thank you all commenting on Thorium alternative. If not got definitive answer, it is as important finding that things are not as straightforward as Sorensen paints them out, but also that there are many new theories coming from LENR related research and theories. I also see it more important to work together to solve this puzzle together and put ego aside as much as possible.


    One important learning I have encountered and later witnessed many times. Before attacking anyones comment, one should merely ask to clarify and give more information and references what the commenter means. I myself do not have formal education on nuclear physics, but I am surrounded with the very gifted people around me and ended up witnessing several times where some super smart person has said something and got immediately put down with numerous reason why his/her opinion should be ignored. Many times I have taken that person to one to one discussion during meeting break, and oh boy what a wonderful world of logic and smart thinking there has been behind his short comment that was immediately dismissed (very well known phenomenon among Mensa members and is related to other peoples personal defense mechanisms in situations when they don't understand. Some could claim it is also related to ego and even Testosterone...).


    I see lot of similarities with those cases and many persons here like Bob Greenyer and Axil etc. to name a few. I'm not against challenging and arguing anyones opinions, since it is part of scientific process, but too often people here gets the same treatment as Pythagoras or Aristoteles when the they simply said 'Look earth is not flat , it is round'. People should have asked 'How so, please explain. Lets discuss', instead of throwing stones.


    I see also other similarities in named members here. They both read lots of articles, and that is great value by itself. Not every great innovation require new unique theories, many of them are result of combining few or more, sometimes very far fetched already known facts. Connecting the correct dots, some would say. Some times, actually majority of times, that technique fails when not properly understanding theories. But some times that brings something new or even revolutionary, and thus worth further questions and debate. This is especially true with topics like LENR where there is not many who even claims to have waterproof theory.

    Axil, that interesting news. I have not too much knowledge in nuclear physics so no own opinion on this either.

    So you are saying that because of fuel components and byproducts it would be heavily regulated, but isn't that the case with fission energy?

    How about his claims that as opposite to traditional fission reactors, thorium reactor burns fuel more or less 'fully', since you don't need to take less active half-burnt fuel away but just 'enrich' it by adding new rich U235. Then less active fuel gradually more or less burns totally.

    Claim I think he had that this way we could get rid of plutonium and also other nc-waste in this reactor because it gets consumed same way? I think he claimed also that the end resulting waste components has max half time of 50 years or something (so after few hundreds of years all 'waste' could be buried into ground without worries?). Is this wrong assumption/message from him?

    Is Sorenson then, in your opinion, just optimistic salesman to sell expensive project to governments and forgetting nasty details?


    And Malcolm, yes I think that could work. I remember also Sorenson mentioned this when he was in free talk session with Canadian university students after his presentation. Or it was mentioned by some viewer in comments section of that video. I can't recall more in detail. Anyway starting that process would be bit tricky since salt must be hot enough to get pumped 8o

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    In the case of the surgeon with the knife, there is the intention of healing the patient, the patient's consent that was obtained in advance and the many successful examples in history that justify the use of the scalpel.


    Sorry , while I agree with you, I was bit unclear with my example of surgeon. In our culture we have some saying describing the phenomenon that I meant. For example roughly translated 'Give kid a hammer and he sees nails everywhere' I meant that learning and researching about psychiatric disorders tempts to lead seeing them in more often in similar looking cases even that would not be the case when analyzed more carefully.


    So that is different thing than the example 'Send person to with low esteem to plastic surgeon and she/(he?) comes back with rubber boobs, but send her to psychotherapist and she comes back with peace in her mind'.

    PS. I Don't want to argue about your point since off topic, but we have also many accepted studies showing that part of knee and hip surgical operations have been either unnecessary or not effective. Or you may search youtube for example topic like 'Si joint manipulation' and wonder why doctors merely orders billions worth of pain killers or someone talks you over to 'consent' on weekly physiotherapist treatment instead of, often one time, SI joint manipulation. Worth wondering. No answer is not mostly that doctors would be in greedy companion with enterprises, but maybe even more saddening. They simply don't know enough. Thank lord AI is coming to make them even better professionals. I would have other even more sad examples, but not topic of this thread.

    Of all the tech out there to secure an energy future? Thorium fluoride salt reactors are the clear winner. $30 bn on r and d in that field would be so much better spent rather than the ITER...which is physically interesting but the smelliest most overweight white elephant one could possibly conceive.

    You said no politics but physicists should vote thorium fluoride salt. Amazing tech and the story of its invention is up there with Rossi when it comes to pulling a sly one to get investment. Its developer conned the military into thinking it would be able to power an aircraft when he knew full well it wouldn't, had em going for years, long enough to produce an excellent near flawless prototype that can even consume and make safer existing nuclear waste from conventional reactors.

    Msr cold war era reactor as energy future


    Actually this is a good reminder that there really are plausible alternatives to Hot fusion and LENR based technologies providing risk free energy easily for thousands of years. Mr Sorenson (Sörensen?) has done excellent job on keeping this alternative in talks (lots of easy to follow videos in his page and youtube) . I have read somewhere that India has programme to study also this alternative.

    Pumping molten salt is challenge already by itself, but i think biggest hurdle is that it is very aggressive stuff wearing pumps and pipes rather quickly. I'm wondering have anyone considered using ceramics coating in pump and pipe interiors and maybe cooling pump parts a bit from inside if needed?

    Again an Again..... history of Rossi proves that he was accused unjustly and in fact he was cleared by all charges and refunded by the Italian State because he was innocent and convicted for about 4 years !

    After some years, people accusing him (even a General) was discovered to be connected with Mafia and arrested.


    Yes I know his history which is longer than problems with Italian boys (for example lab explosion in England, which of course could be pure accident or not, we cannot know), but I was not referring only pre-e-Cat history. I usually evaluate parties also on how the 'talks' and 'actions' differs. After reading endless turns and twists in JONP ( fully automated production line, big industry partners and customers, Sweden 'factory' deals, e-cat, Hot-Cat, Tiger, Quark-X, Six Sigma, battery powered quarks :whistling:, JMP container, Second floor radiator, COP 1.6....20 000 and so on without any proven actions) my stand on Rossi is that before he shows something real his talks are just talks not more before. This principle applies to IH and Dewey also, but I skip that part at this point.


    On the other hand...

    im fascinated by the dedication of the acolytes of the sociopathic conman and their unswerving loyalty to a man so very discredited and obviously deceptive . your not physicists that's for sure yet appear utterly devoted to this ridiculous mans cause. Is it wishful thinking of environmental advantages of such a tech that has you so religiously hooked?

    Or are you hopeful you can get in on his next con? Its fascinating in any case. Don't mind me. You carry on.


    it is so easy to call someone sociopath, narcissist, conman or whatever by just evaluating his postings and sayings out of context, where they could have been put up certain way merely because of business reasons than ones personality. It is known fact that surgeons see in people need for surgical treatment, whereas physiotherapist heal same person easily without knife.


    For example JONP has done damn good job on confusing both competitors and investors. Or have you seen any other LENR-inventor being able to lure big investments by promising 'initial 2 year research program with expected initial COP 1.2', which would have been huge news before Rossis continuous fogging. That has nothing to do with sociopathic goals, but pure business benefit (ethical or not is another question).

    I wouldn't go far on final judging Rossi before Court ruling and before he shows what he possibly has to show since his story is still plausible.

    My general observation is that less people understand big picture and longer perspectives, more convinced they are that they know for sure how things are...


    This has become very active thread with over 750 posts in just 10 days! This makes it hard for any (new) one to form intelligent opinion on topic. Same goes with the docket with over 750 documents.


    Here are few tips and questions for newcomers and history researchers to consider:
    - Docket has documents for the court so they are generally more reliable than most of the postings here, which are more or less external analysis or biased quesswork. Read both sides of the story and try to form opinion from there as judges do.

    - Latest documents in docket are most relevant, since they are condensed view of the parties. Fastest way to browse through them is to click link above and in docket view click up arrow in top right corner to sort documents from newest to oldest, because name starts with the document number. Click into middle to document miniature to open it directly in browser view.

    - Fastest way to browse to next or previous document is open one to browser view and click highlighted < or > arrow in side of the document (concerns only pdf documents in docket, others you can skip)

    - Also some oldest documents are fruitful for researchers and hobbyists, since they contain also unfiltered facts, like mails that attorneys have succeeded to seal away from court proceedings in later phases.

    - This thread offers great source for many kind of analysis. One could try to identify Goals, Roles, Tactics religious behavior and so on.

    - Of course most of the posters here are just honestly interested on LENR and speculating around it.
    - It would be fruitful ask yourself good untouched questions against docs.


    My favorite list of open questions (and my opinion) is:

    - Is Rossis explanation of second floor radiator trusworthy after he had to admit under the oath that JMP customer was just empty shell company and not a single piece of evidence? Not in my opinion.

    - Is Rossis 3rd party testimony report be trusted after its calculations has been based mostly on Rossi says of pipe lengths and diameters where nobody have photo or video evidence on? No, you cannot base it on Rossi says in my opinion.

    - IH:s real goal on this? Are they honest world savior or hidden agenda to control possible LENR market and technology release schedule? I believe that latter one, remembering they also what did against other researchers. Funding them with few k$ on their research just to keep them under NDA was cheapest way to control LENR to market

    - IH:s ethics by hiring Israeli people to put pressure on Italian scientists? Very ugly busines ethics, no matter did court seal the mails or not. I would keep far away from such partners when so much is on stake.

    - IH partner Mr Weaver sending threatening mail to Swedish professors. Was he lonely rider or planned action. Hard to tell, but IMO based on what he has posted on these forums, I would say lonely rider, but in the other hand looking at so different writing style points strongly on very planned action with the 'boys'.

    - IH:s APCO connections only seen in one Mr Dardens mail recipient list. Is APCO running the posting flood in this thread. Maybe not, but some could find patterns here (lets see does discussion now quickly turn again to endless pipe diameter or rust in glass pipe argumentation thus meaning both parties are hired to do that , sorry IHFB and Jed :/

    - Is Rossi plain fraud with nothing real in his E-Cat technology just trying to steal 90 m$ from honest investors. Could be, considering his history, but LENR has become so big topic that there shouldn't be so much smoke without fire. Does Rossi have it is another question. IMO he might have something, but I believe only after I see it proven by independent researchers using open science principles a'la MFMP.

    - Why is IH not willing to sell IP back to Rossi, or was Rossis offer real, since there is no hard prof in court documents, just Rossi says. That would be easiest proof, public binding offer from Rossi and IH:s public reply. I doubt we will never see it.

    - Is this just fight over issue IH now controlling only partial IP, where Rossis HotCat, Quark-X ... younameit, would offer him escape route form IH:s control and to wide release of LENR for better good for human kind? If this would be true, I would forgive Rossi and IH all bad thing they have committed to but not holding my breath waiting.

    Since time to place our bets is closing anyway. I will place mine just for the record. I think that Rossi is on thin ice especially with lack of evidence on claims about second floor buildup and ruse of JMP shell. Depends bit on does it go to jury or does Judge kick this off before that. With current evidence only in front of jury Rossi would have slight chances.


    But what else. Rossi could draw rabbit from hat in last day by publishing independent test results of E-Cat made by accredited (Swedish, German?) research institute added by Quark-X results. Nobody would care a horses shit what court ruling would be then. This is option only if he has something, and with this little evidence it is hard to have faith anymore,


    At the end of the day, what this all mean to parties? If Rossi loses he will lose everything for good, nobody invests a dime on his endeavors after that. His only chance is either to win in court or show something cooking in his magicians hat.


    What about IH then. Winning this case would save them some money and reputation, and spreading their reputation might help them to get recognized by willing partners. But I also think that their claimed nasty history cannot go without affecting on how potential customers would value them if competing technologies becomes available. Voting with your wallet is greatest of all powers as you can see in recent public cases in airline industry. I have seen too much corporate world to believe on their 'humanity' or any other power against them.


    There is not much new facts anymore to dig from court documents. Re-circling around pipe diameter (it was first claimed to be 5" , remember), pressure and window frame paints and reflections, marks on the floor etc. is waste of time at this point. There is no clear evidence did Rossis container produce extra heat or not no matter how much we dig photo details and stains on floor.

    What instead has been shown plain clear in documents is that:
    -Ross become suspicious on IH:s agenda, and is now proven, for a good reason.

    -IH was trying to rule LENR markets by trying to capture all relevant LENR IPR. IH business plan is so revealing and clear on this.

    -Funding rest of the researchers they tried to control how LENR comes to market - if ever. (any research community members want to speak up?)

    -It become as big surprise to IH that Mr Rossi choose rather to fall with IH in court than let them steal and control the LENR market. For example mr Weaver learnd about problems just late February just before IH published their press release. Until that he was going full ahead on expanding IH:s smelly reach.

    -Hiring israeli partners to do the dirty work to invalidate test report by seemingly unethical means - no matter was court sealing the doc or not. The proof is there in black on white,
    - Mr Weaver sending very nasty mail to Swedish professors should be glowing warning sign for any current and future business partners to stay far away from any IH-initiatives. I'm very delighted to see that Swedish companies are much more far sighting.

    -Not signing amendment paper is just lawyer juggling and spells out loud and clear real IH skin.
    -Big resources of Planet IH here is repeatedly and consistently redirecting discussion to some irrelevant details every time some one tries to touch some relevant subject. That is so clear pattern that this thread is very fruitful source for lots of manipulation studies to come. (see what happens quickly after this posting)

    - Have you ever wondered that IH was not willing to arrange test customers.

    -Have you ever wondered why IH is not willing to give back the license if they think that Rossis conainer is expensive water boiler with COP of 1.


    Disclaimer: No I don't believe Rossi had anything produced in 'customer' container nor that ERV would be reliable, but I'm thankful for him to reveal true colors of IH:s LENR job. Someone will it as viable technology and LENR now escapes from IH:s hands - for the better of us all.


    PS. Just wish me356 has taken a good read on this case and keep cool and stay far away of such business partners.

    Thanks @Dan21 for your evaluation of the video (Actually it's not mine, but from very famous Hydraulic Press Channel that I like to watch when I'm tired).


    Your comment made me think about other test where they crushed ceramic ball. It required much bigger force to crush, and caused bigger 'explosion', but did not release visible heat, instead very fast moving debreee and impact wave that caused acryllic shielding to jump from its holder.


    Very different outcome. See between around 0:50 and 3:00 marks


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    Edit: There is one more video that came to my mind. See how small lithium battery of pacemaker explodes (starts around 2:30). Few similar sparks as in first video (steel bearing ball).
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7E5Z2MTrNk

    I'm not sure what I see here, but looks like lots of energy is released (around 00:50 mark) by using lots of force.

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    Is this just big binding energy energy released fast or is there something else also going on?

    Etiam has been pretty quiet after shares issue program didn't succeed. Now there is short article about them in Finnish technology magazine "Tekniikka & Talous"


    In short it looks like they are three researchers doing experimenting in their spare time after day job. Patent application was mentioned and Shares issue.


    They openly tells about their theory and latest findings. They are barely above COP 1. They have next tests planned, but they are sort on funding at the moment which slows them down.


    This is pretty big change on magazines policy since previous article about LENR is from September 2014. Reporter seems to be pretty septic still about companies claiming big COP. Mentions Defkalion, Brillouin and Rossi of course, but only comment about him is his colorful claims and hazy past.


    These are from top of my head, I can add more details about Etiam theory if someone interested (reading article needs paid account in their service).

    There are three common conspiracies:
    1: IH/ Cherokee is stealing Rossi's IP to hinder the technology or to maximize profit by cutting Rossi out.
    2: Rossi together with other chemists, engineers and physicists are defrauding IH/Cherokee of money
    3: Both parties above are dishonest and know the technology does not work but try to capitalise on it


    @LFH Sam No you are not the only one :)


    What caught my attention is this new discussion about Black Water / Darden / Dewey connection. What I get from there it is that it is of course something that that parties would not be happy to to admit, but would it be big issue?


    What would that connection mean?


    Can someone explain what that hypothetical connection would mean.

    Interesting interview. Thank you Peter and David!


    David also hints that there has been more going on than publicly shared. Summing up me356, @David Fojt, engineer48 etc. on top of Rossis claims makes me think 'No smoke without fire' might apply also on this LENR story.


    If what David says about IH dealing with Brillouin to successfully replicate Rossi effect is true. It makes me read many old comments here and Mats blog in totally different light.


    On the other hand, in all its ugliness it is better option, since it would mean that Rossis claims are true!


    Edit: pls read further comments by David in Peters blogs comments section.

    'Rossi would not have spent a year inside of a shipping container if he did not have to. His onsite presence is required to get the COP up to high levels. Developing a control system to replace his constant adjustments is not a simple thing to develop, especially if Rossi want to keep his IP secret.'


    Last part I agree. It's hard if needed measurements and controls and their interrelationships are kept secret. But when they are known, control algorithms are relatively easy to implement with todays microcontrollers and high level programming languages. Things like ABS, DSTC systems in cars were written with previous generation tools and they work pretty well - and I dare to doubt that human would be better to do same control manually (especially DSTC, Dynamic Stability Control System)


    Edit: Not to mention what ECU (engine control unit) in modern diesel engines does in varying driving conditions to keep emission, noise performance etc. -levels optimal.

    @Dan21 thank you for summarizing the problems with the report. Yes I have said from the beginning that there is no such thing like real trueRMS meter. When you have nonsymmetric or spiky signal, some meters gets closer to than others.


    Also this IR measurements with translucent alumina is questionable and discussed to death by TC and ranombit0 already. Thing they even missed was that you in my guess get more sources of error if reaction itself emits some energy as IR-light trough alumina (but then Rossi effect would be real, wouldn't it).


    As response to Jed, I tend to agree that measurements were at least not very carefully performed, maybe being hastly set up knowing Rossis difficult temper.


    Second question is what is maximum error for meters used with this waveform? I think I read few months back in Cobra forum about one simulation, which could prove remarkable error maybe factor of two even to be conservative (if we consider misplaced ammeter wires also).


    What I learned from IR-measurements during debate mentioned translucency makes measurements more difficult and there is room for error if you use book values of emissivity instead of values from calibration run. I also saw concrete problems by following MFMP clowstick video stream. But all in all IR-measurements in this setup, could be broblematic and requires good care and calibration to get them more accurate. Still the error margins are limited as long as you look carefully where you point the IR-meter. I can't recall the exact figures from the debate mentioned.


    So yes I still conclude (just my layman conclusions from top of my memory):
    - Some reports can not guarantee COP>1, while at least one report cannot be explained by errors in measurements (Even all errors included COP would be >1)
    - Early tests were not made following best practices and authors should not be proud to sign them. As I have said many times I don't give too much emphasis on what was demonstrated/tested/said by Rossi in earlier phases since he had rather big urgency to scare competition away and keep them unfunded to play more time for his own E-cat development. Remember low temp e-cats, poor controllability and slow activation etc. Does this test show Penon to be 'certified idiot' as Jed says? To me no, the nature of the tests was so different compared to 1 year test.
    - If ERV is to be trusted and it shows COP ~50 you can forget about max TrueRMS errors, flowmeter installation positions etc, unless IH can prove that something fraudent was done by purpose (tampered or swapped flowmeters or Clearly fabricated numbers etc.)


    I hope this clarfies why I still keep 'open mind leaning on LENR is real' on this, and as you see I didn't even mention recent leaked fuel analysis since anyone knowledgeable enough can invent those so that they seem to reflect real reactions.

    Jed, Thank you for the link. Sorry but I have no time just now to go through the whole doc.
    Maybe tomorrow, but it would help if you could repeat once again most important pages (I know you have done that million times already, but I have lost track on which doc is which). Or maybe you could point link to some old post where you have explained flaws on this doc.


    Anyway I'm probably not very qualified to judge correctness of the this calorimetry, so my judgment on it doesn't weight much. I'm more looking Penon thing in more non technical level as discussed with Eric Walker above.

    Eric, questions you raised I agree. We don't know exctly and that can mean evrything between something like he has very little (experience on calorimetry, collaboration with Veritas etc) in practise or he might have done a lot, since he is no more young guy (AFICR).


    So lets keep our minds open and jump in strong conclusions when we have more information. Engineer48 have promised few more leaks in E-catworld. The first one had meaningful numbers, but they are just numbers so far, that can have come where ever.