Ascoli65 Member
  • from Italy
  • Member since May 28th 2016
  • Last Activity:

Posts by Ascoli65

    @ oldguy,


    [...] whereas Patterson actually ran a test at Motorola and left it with them for a while for them to run and measure.


    I don't know the hystory of CETI, but, as far as I read in the article on Wired quoted above, the test you are referring to may have been the one "demonstrated in a Motorola facility, which was not the best environment to do calorimetry". Anyway I was referring to the fundings actually collected, not to the offers.


    Quote

    Notice a claimed 1kW system was demonstrated. The Ceti story is a sad one. Notice also that Milley was able to get transmutation on beads and ran independent verification.


    I am sorry to say, but it seems to me that LENR is closer to mythology than to science.

    @ woodworker,


    And Bernie Madoff scammed billions. Maybe we should ask him his views on LENR if raising money is the criterion on which we are going to rely.


    It doesn't seem to me a proper comparison. Madoff had no previous reliability problems and worked in his sphere of competence.


    The Ecat story rather reminds me a more surreal situation, something like Al Capone in the position of Head of the Security at Fort Knox. You would immediately wonder who put him in that position and for what reasons. Perhaps these reasons were legitimate, and the choice of the person was the best one. Who knows?

    @ oldguy,


    example: CETI (Clean energy Tech) was offered 30 M by Motorola but Patterson wanted to remain in control, F&P were given 30M for their set up in Nice, France.


    As for CETI, I found this story:


    So the funding at stake were 15 M$, but above all it was tied to a properly conducted test. In any case collecting offers is not the same as collecting money.


    The only suitable example is, therefore, the 30 M$ spent by Toyoda for F&P. Let us compare it with the funds raised by the Ecat. The company founded specifically to exploit its IP initially raised at least 11,5 M$, and subsequently obtained 50 M$ from an investing fund (5% of an estemated total value of 1 B$). After subtracting all the costs, there remains more than 30 M$ available for the LENR field. So, from the POV of the LENR community, the Ecat initiative was much more fruitful than the Nice initiative.


    But the economic part doesn't adequately show the exceptionality of the Ecat venture, with respect to the F&P's one. We should better compare the circumstances of the two endeavors.


    Let's start with F&P. In 1989, they were two esteemed academicians, unanimously recognized as true scientists. One of them had been the president of the International Society of Electrochemistry, the discipline concerning the functioning of his cell. They obtained the funding for the Nice lab in 1992, when there was still some credit that cold fusion could have been a real phenomenon, and many believed that the criticisms raised in the first months could have come by strong competitions between physicists and chemists. In addition, the two scientists claimed to have obtained only a few watts of excess heat, a range easily attributable to the instrumental errors, and their task was only to improve that gain and better explain the possible underlying phenomenon.


    On the other side, Rossi had a degree in philosophy and was a complete outsider for nuclear physics or chemistry. When he joined the LENR field, his reputation was not at the highest level. Leaving aside the Italian troubles, the only research activity carried out in the US under a government contract, the TEG project, ended in failure. At the time he entered the LENR field, 20 years later of the Nice initiative, the related research was nearly dead, and its popularity was at the lowest level. The CF/LENR field was ignored by most people, the few others considered it as woodo science. Rossi made a miracle, literally resurrecting the field, and making millions of people believing that the LENR phenomena were real, and that his method was nearly ready for industrial applications. Despite having published on the web a lot of data, including the videos, of many dumb tests, he and the Ecat IP have finally attracted dozens of millions of funding for the development of his devices and for the financing of the entire LENR field.


    In conclusion, there is no competition with the F&P achievements. The Rossi venture has been by large the most incredible and sensational success in the history of all the controversial sciences.

    @ interested observer,


    However, if he is the most successful LENR researcher, then I would encourage the proprietors of this site to close up shop ASAP.


    Can you cite any other LENR researcher whose devices have been capable to collect several dozens millions of funding?


    No doubt that his venture deserves the attention of this site, and even of many MSMs.

    @ interested observer,


    ... when it is obvious to everyone who reads your posts that you are utterly convinced that Rossi has the goods and has leapfrogged the efforts of hundreds of researchers who have sought a miracle energy device for decades.


    The second achievement is certain. In a few years he became by large the most famous and most successful CF/LENR researcher.

    @ JedRothwell,


    It is not a revelation. It is a confused rumor. Celani is nice fellow but he gets confused at times, and makes mistakes. There is no chance Ahern worked with Rossi.


    I don't know how he got these rumors. Ask him, please.


    Quote

    Plus, as I said, even if they did work together, they published nothing, so nothing came of the collaboration.


    This is not the point. Anyway, it shows that such a collaboration cannot be excluded even for you.


    Quote

    So if it happened it is a trivial matter.


    I disagree. If it happened that Rossi worked on LENR in a US government lab before coming to Italy to look for Focardi, it would be a very big issue.


    Quote

    It is none of your concern, and frankly, none of your business. I do not understand why you are so keen to poke into people's private lives searching for "proof" of your conspiracy theories.


    Hey, are you kidding? I didn't poke into anybody's private live! I was responding to a comment by Shane D. who first mentioned Ahern, and in preparing my answer I stumbled upon the public Celani's revelations about this old collaboration with Rossi in a government context. I didn't care of Ahern up to now.


    At this point, I wonder why this fact irritates you so much.

    Eric Walker,


    The straightforward account is something like this: (1) When Jed Rothwell was advocating for Rossi a few years ago, it was a sincere advocacy that was due to his being aware of test results that were promising and due to his being in contact with people he trusted who were closer to Rossi's activities and who were also enthusiastic. That (2) Rossi was not an agent of the DoD or a similar agency, but rather an independent actor who had gained attention in various quarters with his claims. And that (3) any activity vaguely traceable back to the DoD and other government agencies was presumably due to genuine interest and not, e.g., their masterminding a revival of interest in LENR for underhanded purposes unrelated to LENR.


    Thanks for the esplicitation.


    Quote

    Hopefully this reading will seem like the straightforward one to you as well? In departing from it, your questions, with vague hints of a nefarious plot, take things in the direction of a conspiracy theory.


    Sorry, this reading doesn't help me much to understand the development of the Ecat story.


    It raises and leaves unanswered a lot of questions. I wonder, for example, which quarters could have been interested in an actor with such a controversial past. Which of his claims could have gained any attention after the failure of his TEG project. Which test results have been so promising. On what bases the people who were closer to Rossi could have been so enthusiastic about his activities.


    I hope these questions are not too nefarious.

    @ Shane D.,


    So what will you do if he does, and it is not to your liking? In his shoes, I would be very hesitant to speak up also, after seeing what you are subjecting JR to for answering your questions.


    This is a harsh criticism about my behavior here on L-F. I always appreciated your way of discussing, even when you were a strong Ecat believer. I'm glad you're now a moderator here on L-F. So, I'd like to consider your advices, and see if I can improve my way of participating to the discussion. Could you please specify where I've been unfair or unkind to JR?


    BTW, as for the Celani's revelation on an old Ahern-Rossi collaboration, I would like to clarify that I run into it while I was responding to your comment in which you pointed out that Ahern was the only one not fooled by Rossi (1). Until then I have never paid too much attention to this US researcher.


    Looking for more info about the relationship between the two men. I also found an interview with Ahern broadcasted in June 2011 by Radio24 (2), a rather important radio in Italy. This radio belongs to the Confindustria (the Italian Industrialist Association) and is regularly followed by many entrepreneurs. If you pay attention to what he says about the results obtained by Rossi, you will face one of these two possibilities: either Ahern was fooled by Rossi, or he was trying to fool some Italian investor.


    (1) Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

    (2) https://22passi.blogspot.it/20…lowatt-e-brian-ahern.html

    @ Eric Walker,


    a year or three ago I went to the effort of verifying with you, yourself, on this site, what the outlines of your suggestion were. Shall I dig up the thread? You are good at this kind of thing; perhaps you will be kind enough to do the honors.


    You're probably referring to this: https://www.lenr-forum.com/for…D/?postID=30357#post30357


    Quote

    Or perhaps your position has not changed since that exchange, and you can point out what in the description above I got wrong in comparison to the previous attempt?


    My position has not changed since then. What you got mostly wrong in your description above is turning "A hypothesis" into "THE premise". This last wording implies a fixed starting point. On the contrary, a hypothesis is only one possibility among others.


    In 2016, I wrote you that the hypotheses expressed in YOUR summary of a possible MY position "ha[d] to be carefully verified, and hopefully confirmed by the proper level, in the proper site." At that time, I was thinking about the pending House of Representative's request for a DoD briefing on the latest developments in the LENR field. Meanwhile, the response from DoD has inexplicably ignored the Ecat issue, and the subsequent trial in Miami ended with a settlement. So there will be no official explanation of the Ecat affair. I can't fill this gap, of course.


    From my POV, I can only say that the Rossi's scam hypothesis doesn't conform with many specific facts or rumors, such as those raised by Krivit on his 2010 mails to Vortex cited at the end of my 2016 comment.


    Quote

    In your sleuthing, you are studiously ignoring the most obvious and straightforward alternative hypothesis. Namely that things are what they seem.


    May I ask you to explicit this hypothesis?

    @ Eric Walker,


    once you start from the premise that the DoD and related agencies may have launched a scheme that involves both Rossi and Jed Rothwell (and Melich and now, apparently, Ahern) and that uses LENR only as a cover in order to achieve other goals, you are unavoidably within the realm of (highly implausible) conspiracy theories.


    But that's not MY premise. My premises are that no LENR exists and that a Rossi's scam is impossible, for the high level of elaboration that the Ecat operation has required (as properly described by Shane D. just in the comment below yours). It follows that almost every other hypothesis appears to be more plausible.


    However, I'm not able to propose any specific theory. The many information available on internet are still largely insufficient to draw a comprehensive scenario (*). Probably the last chance to know the truth about this affair was the US House of Representative's request for a briefing on the LENR, but the answer deliberately ignored the Ecat issue (1).


    (1) Rossi vs. Darden aftermath discussions

    (*) Edit: It's obvious that such a scenario should also explain the role played by Melich, Rothwell, and, if Celani was right, by Ahern too.

    @ JedRothwell,


    In that case, it is impossible to establish the facts of the matter. So why bother about it? Whether Ahern did or did not work with Rossi is a trivial matter.


    The vice president of ISCMNS wrote in some of his presentations from 2011 to 2017 that Rossi and Ahern did collaborate for a while at the beginning of the Ecat story. This is a fact.


    We don't know to what extent these rumors are true, anyway Celani is a member on L-F and has the possibility to confirm, modify, or withdraw them.


    In any case, IF these rumors are true, they are not at all trivial, just like any other information related to the first contacts of Rossi with the LENR world, … or vice versa

    @ Bob,


    After reading your links, truthfully I am not sure I understand your position. It seems you feel there is some government coverup? Or some theory that LENR is simply a "wag the dog" to gain research funds?


    The debate on the Ecat is polarized around two scenarios: either Rossi has the good, or he is the only responsible for a scam. The first one is excluded by the physics, but the second one also seems quite incredible due to the complexity of this venture. So there should necessarily be other explanations, and the two reasons you mentioned could be included among the possible candidates.


    Quote

    I do not follow conspiracy theories as such.


    No conspiracy. I'm not proposing any of such theories, but a better knowledge of what happened at the real beginning of this story, for example what Celani revealed about a possible early collaboration between Rossi and Ahern, could help in figuring out a more realistic scenario.

    @ JedRothwell,


    You "believe" what Celani said about what Brian Ahern supposedly did? That's ridiculous. That is a game of telephone (whispering from one person to another).


    I said "I am more inclined to believe". It's different.


    In any case, it's not a matter of whispers. Celani wrote those things in some of his presentations spanning from 2011 to 2017, and there is a good chance he was also the informant of Passerini. For his position, Celani was in contact with many people in the LENR field. Surely he had the opportunity to meet the two protagonists of this alleged collaboration.


    I think that what he revealed worth to be taken in due consideration. If true, it sheds a completely different light on the whole Ecat affair. Otherwise it remains in any case the needing to understand first of all how a controversial man like Rossi, with all his well-known failures, has been allowed to enter the top and most secret circles of the LENR field.


    Quote

    If you want to know what Brian did, ASK BRIAN.


    He would deny it. Of course.

    @ Bob,


    Here is what you and AA should do.


    If you associate me with Adrian Ashfield, probably you don't know my position. I never believed that the Ecat produced any excess heat, and its story convinced me more than ever that there has never been any anomalous excess heat in the whole CF/LENR history, and never will be. (This is only my opinion, of course. I don't want to hurt the many here that think differently.)


    As for your questions, I don't know if you have read my previous comments on the Ahern issue. Otherwise, I'd invite you to read at least a couple of them (1-2). Only later, please, let me know which questions you confirm, and I will answer you. Just to avoid wasting time for some misunderstandings.


    (1) Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion  

    (2) Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

    @ JedRothwell,


    I told you that I will not reveal who did the early independent test of the Rossi gadget.


    I didn't ask you to reveal their names (1).


    Quote

    There is no confusion here. I have no inside information on the E-cat results. That is, the results after it was called an "E-cat" and Lewan began publishing.


    It seems instead that you are very confused indeed (2).


    Quote

    The only thing I know about the high temperature devices is in the Levi reports.


    The Levi report on the high temperature device appeared only in 2013 (3), two years after the January 2011 demo, when the name Ecat was revealed. You are really very confused, unless you are trying to mislead the readers here on L-F.


    Quote

    If you have a secret, I don't want to hear it.


    I don’t want to hear yours too. You started this last exchange with me a week ago (4). Since then I have not asked you anything, just wondered (asked myself) about some missing information. The only question I asked you was if you still agree with what you wrote in 2011, when you said that if Rossi was a liar, then all the others who claimed or supported the results of the Ecat, or even of any other Ni cell, are liars too (5). You didn't answer, and I didn't insist.


    Quote

    Most of the inside technical information Ascoli65 has been needling me for is available at LENR-CANR.org.


    Thanks, I have already used and appreciated your library. Anyway, you should not feel needled by me. You have the right to keep your secrets, as well as any other information you have. But if you reply to me saying something that doesn't correspond with what you wrote in the past, I let you know the incongruity.


    (1) Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

    (2) https://www.mail-archive.com/v…@eskimo.com/msg41484.html

    (3) http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1305/1305.3913.pdf

    (4) https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/thread/4645-rossi-blog-comment-discussion/?postID=82342#post82342

    (5) Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

    @ JedRothwell,


    Because I know nothing about it. Why don't you ask Ahern? Knowing him, I think there is no chance he worked with Rossi.


    Thank you for your opinion, but in this specific case I am more inclined to believe what has been revealed by Celani ("to the best of [his] knowledge") and by Passerini's informant:

    "... , before going back to Italy and looking for Focardi, Andrea Rossi had worked for a certain period together with Brian Ahern in the same laboratory in the USA, adding (but this is only my guess) to suspect that it could be a military / government laboratory. "


    Anyone curious about the Ecat affair should reflect upon this possibility.

    @ Shane D.,


    So you believe Rossi might have something just like Jed believes.


    Absolutely not. I didn’t change my opinion with this respect. But I should be more specific.


    CF/LENR is a complex phenomenon that has at least three aspects: physical, economic, and sociological. It's my opinion that the first one does not exist at all, apart from the muonic fusion with its extremely negative energy balance. On the contrary, the other two aspects do exist in real terms. The economic aspect has materialized in hundreds, sometimes thousands, of people simultaneously involved in this research and in the huge flow of money that has fueled such activity for almost 30 years. The sociological aspect is also real and it concerns millions of people all over the world who have believed for a while or for a long time that there could exist a clean, safe, cheap and inexhaustible source of energy able to replace the current ones.


    There is no doubt that the Ecat has had an extraordinary success for the last two aspects of the CF/LENR phenomenon. If these two aspects were the only objectives of this initiative from the beginning, it has been a full success, not a fiasco.


    Quote

    This is the translation: …


    Thanks for your more human translation.


    Quote

    I have read 22Passi/Passerini for years. Not that I speak Italian, but it Google translates well. I love Daniel. Very passionate man, but he has been wrong about Rossi many a time. Yes, he was supposedly a confidant of Rossi, but like all Rossi's "friends", he was used. This one passage of his came from that period. I would not trust it at all.


    I consider Passerini a reliable source. Of course he is wrong when he reports incorrect data and results that others tell him. Anyway, he is reliable in reporting this information. Most of the inconsistencies in the Ecat tests carried out in 2011 were detected thanks to his photos and the other information he spontaneously published on his blog. So, if he says that one of his informants told him that Rossi worked with Ahern before meeting Focardi, we can be sure that he got this information. At this point the uncertainty could remain in his source. I guess it was Celani, because they were in close contact. In such case, I have no doubt that Celani could have had first hand information with this respect. He was (is?) the vice-president of the ISCMNS, and was present in every meeting of the LENR community.


    Celani talked about a collaboration between Rossi and Ahern since December 2011, in an Italian meeting called Coherence 2011. Someone on Vortex asked JR about this collaboration (1), but got no response. I wonder why.


    (1) https://www.mail-archive.com/v…@eskimo.com/msg59580.html

    @ Shane D.,


    Are you saying you hold out the chance that Rossi "may have been the brightest success in the entire CF/LENR story", or are you implying he was successful in fooling a lot of people?


    I'm just saying that we cannot rule out that they are both true, … in the only way they can be both true.


    Quote

    Nonetheless, this is the first I heard of Ahern/Rossi worked together. That must have been very interesting to say the least...fire and fire.


    Isn't it strange? I mean, the fact that nobody talked openly about this collaboration. What was the reason to keep it secret?


    Quote

    Yours is also the first speculation I read that Rossi *may* have first worked with the DOD, and then gone on to introduce himself to Focardi.


    It came from Passerini years ago. You couldn't have read it because it was in Italian. It appears at the end of a post published on 22passi in December 2014 (1). He wrote (please use a translator): "Secondo il mio informatore, prima di tornare in Italia e cercare Focardi, Andrea Rossi aveva lavorato per un certo periodo proprio insieme a Brian Ahern nel medesimo laboratorio USA. Aggiungo (ma questa è solo una mia supposizione) di sospettare che potesse trattarsi di un laboratorio militare/governativo."


    Then Passerini added: "Per correttezza vi informo che a suo tempo chiesi a Rossi se fosse vero che negli USA avesse lavorato fianco a fianco con Brian Aher nella ricerca sulla fusione fredda: beh, me lo smentì categoricamente definendola una sciocchezza. Ma chissà...


    Arriverà a questo punto una analoga smentita da parte di Brian Ahern?"


    Quote

    I just wish you could tell us where you hope to go with it


    Don't the people here (or at least part of us) wish to have a better understanding of the facts?

    How can we, if we ignore the true beginning of the story?


    (1) https://22passi.blogspot.it/20…an-ahern-da-colleghi.html