@Ascoli65
The best happy end for the cold fusion "saga" would be President Donald Trump testimonial of the Ecat.
cam
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Posts by cam
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andrea.s
QuoteAscoli why would the DoD benefit from encouraging and backing a scammer?
Hagelstein's Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI) was another scam fostered by DoD. In somebody's opinion it accelerated the fall of the Soviet Union, so it was a successful scam, although rather expensive. With cold fusion the scam is too open, as GANS is disinterested. It is very difficult to diffuse a scam against the scientific establishment. Above all, what for? To induce Chinese towards weird science? Fantasy. -
Ascoli65
QuoteCold Fusion saga
Saga? It is only a meaningless episode in the history of science, involving very few people and without exhibition of an operating cold fusion reactor.
I still remember the real saga concerning maser/laser. In a few years (five?) everything went under control. With the Ecat the progress is locked in Bondeno laboratories where in 2010 heating was produced by an Ecat. After that?
It isn't a saga, it is a comedy. -
Ascoli65
QuoteYou should find a reason why the Ecat got such an impressive number of endorsements from dozens of experts belonging to so many reputable scientific and technological institutions,...
The number of endorsements is not impressive at all; much more impressive is the number of the nuclear scientists who do not even consider cold fusion or Ecat.
Cold fusion and Ecat are only threads for a few blogs; GANS ignores them.
Scientific American can help you understand:
'Cold fusion' resembles the alchemy of the middle ages. The allure of fame and wealth and the natural desire to believe in good news have been corrupting influences on scientific skepticism. So researchers working outside their main areas of professional expertise are even more likely to misinterpret experimental errors as positive results. And it is hard not to be skeptical about a revolutionary new discovery that would so conveniently have such tremendous and immediate economic value. -
Ascoli65
QuoteHave you understood the historical importance of the demo held in Bologna, on January 14, 2011, at the presence of a dozen of members (or ex-members) of the local Department of Physics? They took publicly the responsibility to measure the possible excess heat produced by a presumed revolutionary device and to properly report it to the public opinion.
What are worrying about? It is only a gloomy story of "incompetence and delusion" as always happens with cold fusion. Do you think those "members" were aware that the odd tin-foiled object didn't work? A too baroque hypothesis. Cold fusion is full of proff, beginning from Fleischmann and Pons. -
JedRothwell
QuoteThese people, to start with
Who among them has been able to set up a reactor like E-Cat? Does Nanor really exist? Has somebody among them tested it?
Who among them has got his paper archived in exfor?
You have been bitterly disappointed by Rossi; other disappointments may be just around the corner.
In less than a minute I can offer you the cross section of the Preparata reaction. Can I find the same in your library made by cold fusionists ? -
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You are too much obsessed by Rossi. He is not the key to understand the Ecat affair.
No obsession at all. Martin Fleischmann and Sergio Focardi are dead. Only Rossi is left. Who else? I wish Rossi a long life, but if he disappears so does cold fusion. Rossi's CF is customized, so to say. It is only a patent, it didn't turn into an acknowledged scientific achievement.
Rossi is the only reference left to the believers. -
@Peter Ekstrom
QuoteIt's too much work to write a motivation for rejection
Most theories ne durent que l'espace d'un matin.
Did somebody care of this claim by John C. Fisher?
http://www.iscmns.org/asti06/FisherFission.pdf
There are hundreds of such claims which seem to have been swallowed by a black hole.
Do you remember the "three miracles" by G. Preparata?
Cold fusion doesn't need theories; it badly needs experiments. -
Peter Ekstrom
QuoteAs we can see from LENR-canr.org papers have been published many places, like in American Physical Society meetings. So LENR will be known by many mainstream scientists
Please, the statement above belongs to oytla, not to me.
The episode in San Diego is very enjoyable. The liberty about theory is total; they say that Peter Hagelstein has exposed more than hundred different theories on cold fusion in the meetings he attended. I wrote to Boris Pritychenko, the responsible of the IAEA nuclear databases. He answered "This database includes primary (peer-reviewed journal articles) and secondary publications." Secondary publications are not peer reviewed. The policy is to be liberal with theories. This doesn't mean that all P. Hagelstein's theories can be found in the IAEA database! In fact I have only found this article:G.K.Hubler, K.S.Grabowski, D.L.Knies, R.A.Walker, P.L.Hagelstein
Anomalous Energetic Proton Emission during 170 keV Deuteron Bombardment of TiD2Nothing about cold fusion written by P.Hagelstein. Sorry for him.
On the subject, why "anomalous proton emission"? Proton are emitted in that reaction. Where they too energetics? What do you mean? -
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It took me years to change my mind because I stopped paying attention to Rossi long ago. I ignored him.
I have been interested in Rossi's "character" till Prof. S. Focardi has been his scientific tutor. Now I sincerely admire his dexterity to get money from an American patent (or a patent application, it doesn't matter). He is a philosopher and knows Card. Carlo Carafa's saying: vulgus decipi vult, ergo decipiatur. I wish Rossi to earn a lot of American dollars for his grandsons. I can't help considering Rossi a shrewd Italian who has got success in the USA. Well done. Forza Rossi. -
Lomax
QuoteBut that's not science, it's psychology and this is studied in the sociology of science
In Baltimore some 1800 people were present. It was the turning point of cold fusion. Nobody but a 200 people in the world have trusted on cold fusion since those exciting days. Cold fusion was rejected by the scientific community and still it is.QuoteI pointed out two well-known cold fusion researchers who are Fellows, Yeong Kim and Robert Duncan.
Are you saying that only Yeong Kim and Robert Duncan are Fellows of APS? -
Alan
QuoteIt was not offered as an inducement to invest in anything, or to buy shares, and was not a sworn document.
It was offered to convince JR that the E-Cat is an interesting invention. It took 5 years to change his mind.
Ascribing all the responsibility to Rossi sounds unconvincing to me, even if the Lugano report is not sworn.
As you can see, Italian Ordini Professionali are very useful. A stamp on a document is binding. -
If an Italian chemist warrants with the stamp bestowed by Ordine dei Chimici that some water is drinkable, he can be sued if the water is poisonous.
If Levi testifies that the energy balance of E-Cats is positive, can he be sued by someone who has bought an E-cat? In other words is Rossi in the USA the sole legal responsible for his claims? -
@oytla
QuoteAnd since you are so LAZY, I will give you the last one I know of
So good for S.Olafsson, but L. Holmlid is an "Atmospheric Science" expert, Department of Chemistry and Molecular Biology, Goteborg. A very odd couple. What do they have in common?
I'll read the paper, thank you very much. -
Many years ago I was indirectly asked by a Senate Commission to do some work. I could have been sued by the counterpart, as the document I produced was formal.
I have a doubt: Levi, Bianchini, Villa, who signed some documents on Rossi's behalf, could be sued or, being physicists, are they legally irresponsible? Neither of them is a public official, as in Italy there is no Ordine dei Fisici.
What is the legal weight of a Third Party Report? -
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For example, in my understanding, at least historically, in France a "Notaire" is much more like an attorney in the US, it is a highly selective profession with honorific connotations.
The same in Italy.
In Italy chemists who can sign formal documents must be enrolled in the Ordine dei Chimici. It is not a choice, it is law. When I was sent to Kosovo to do some special work for the Army I had to exhibit my enrollment in the Ordine dei Chimici. Quite strangely Italian physicists have not their own Ordine. Ingegneri do have. No ingegnere could work without enrollment in his Order. Roman law, Napoleonic Code? Perhaps, I don't know.
In Italy any degree has a legal value, but this doesn't mean that you are automatically enrolled in your Ordine. -
@Lomax
QuoteIt would cost me $149 to join the APS
The point is not if physicists have the money to be enrolled in APS.
oystla is quite clear:
As we can see from LENR-canr.org papers have been published many places, like in American Physical Society meetings. So LENR will be known by many mainstream scientists.
I would like to know: are there APS proceedings where cold fusion is discussed? Julian Schwinger resigned from the American Physical Society after their refusal to publish his papers. On 1-4 May in Baltimore the APS members rejected cold fusion sharply. Has their attitude changed since then?
By the way, enrollment in SCI (Società Chimica Italiana) is not so straightforward as the enrollment in APS. Only those who can sign public documents, for example those which can be used in a court, can be enrolled. It is not a matter of money at all. -
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You mean you are critisizing LENR and LENR-canr without doing any investigation of the matter ?
Don't be so lazy. Dosome research, and you will find many LENR papers published at APS meetings.
Do you maintain that some APS members are recognized and accepted cold-fusionists? This would be a real scoop. Let us know. -
@Lomax
QuoteFor LENR, there is no specific known and identified and demonstrated reaction.
I agree with you. This is the state of the art after 27 years from F&P' outing. We only have matter for JR's library. -
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Does your databases include only the work of Italian science, or is it include science from everybody? In your science,
I was only joking. The serious answer is: perhaps Holmlid's works have some faults.