Posts by user1815

    Piantelli took the Ni rod out of his experiment after it had produced excess heat for a while and placed the rod in a cloud chamber. There he saw high energy protons being emitted. This is in his published works.

    What published works?

    Holmlid et al is planning to miniaturize his experiment so that it can fit inside a main line science CERN like particle detector by mid summer.


    Zephir_AWT wrote:

    Except that Holmlid has said it himself (and I explained multiple-times, why it is so):

    Yet he proposed that what is commonly called LENR could be a result of ultra-dense hydrogen production and spontaneous nuclear reactions caused by it. This seems strictly a matter of definitions. He does not believe that what happens is "cold fusion".


    [...] then how you break water to recover O2 in 2 steps ?

    This would stray quite a bit from the experiments suggested in the opening post in the patent by A.J. Groszek. but assuming that the Mills-hypothesis of the last few posts is true then one could simply include hydrogen gas with small amounts of water in a small heated chamber and apply electric discharges. As the H2 and H2O start dissociating and recombining, an energy excess would in turn start appearing.

    Groszek also suggests in the patent linked in the opening post that traces amounts of water (0.01 μmol to 100 μmol per gram of metal) appear to increase the energy gain. Would it be plausible if some water molecules get thermally dissociated by the heat of the reaction?

    Alan Smith,

    In this specific case there is also the benefit of published peer reviewed literature which is probably more clearly written than the patent. The last papers written by Groszek et al. are related to the patent you linked in the opening post.

    Abnormally high heat generation by transition metals interacting with hydrogen and oxygen molecules (2012)

    Effect of oxygen on the production of abnormally high heats of interaction with hydrogen chemisorbed on gold (2011)

    Heats of interaction of hydrogen with gold and platinum powders and its effect on the subsequent adsorptions of oxygen and noble gases (2010)

    Oscillatory Rates of Heat Evolution during Sorption of Hydrogen in Palladium (2008)

    Heats of displacement of hydrogen from palladium by noble gases (2005)

    This would also give at least some credence to the various closed cycle overunity water cell/HHO claims of the past decade(s). If the reaction is gainful and reversible it could potentially run only with the electrolysis of water and the recombination of H2-O2 on a suitable catalyst. I think Randell Mills has a patent application and a couple published papers on a similar cell.

    It's possible for this to be replicated Barty, though I have my hands pretty full at the minute. The demands on equipment and temperatures and pressures are not unreasonable.

    Erwin Lalik, a microcalorimetry expert who has written a few papers with AJ Groszek, did similar experiments using lab-grade synthetic air (80% N2, 20% O2) on alumina-supported, hydrogen saturated Pd catalysts.

    It is possible that the experiment could be approximated with your standard "Model T tubes" by injecting standard air on H-saturated metals. The catch is that the H2-O2 recombination has to occur with µmol-amounts of gas in order to yield an (apparent?) excess.

    I think I recall discussing this with you a few months ago here on LENR-Forum.

    I have not read your pdf yet, but looking at the subject and the authors, is it related with this:

    Oscillatory Behavior and Anomalous Heat Evolution in Recombination of H2 and O2 on Pd-based Catalysts
    Erwin Lalik*†, Alicja Drelinkiewicz†, Robert Kosydar†, Tomasz Szumełda†, Elżbieta Bielańska†, Dan Groszek‡, Angelo Iannetelli‡, and Martin Groszek

    And this person:…her/2000695766_AJ_Groszek

    Worth pointing out David that there are hundreds of scientific papers which accept that very high gas pressures inside lattice defects are 'normal'. It is counter-intuitive that this ultra-high pressure environment can be created when the ambient pressure is so low, but it also shows us that at the atomic/molecular scale materials do no always behave as we expect.

    I previously took this for granted, but do you have some exemplary references for the section highlighted in bold in the quote above?

    If we linearly extend that temperature/pressure line up to the SunCell temperature of 7000K, not much pressure will produce the metalized hydrogen.

    I am not sure that the transition line can be extended that way but since it is already known (or at least predicted) that the electronic environment can decrease the pressure required for metallic hydrogen formation [1] if both things could be combined perhaps one would find out that it could have already (inadvertently) been synthesized during totally different experiments where its formation was not planned nor expected (read: for example in many LENR experiments).

    [1] The paper you often referred about where hydrogen in lithium hydride can be metallized at 1/4 (not "decreased by 400%" as you often stated) of the pressure normally required: ("A little bit of lithium does a lot for hydrogen" by Zurek et al.)

    If a production and separation process is developed for metallic hydrogen, the rocket fuel will explode like the SpaceX rocket.

    This may not be totally off-topic as metallic hydrogen is predicted to be a novel room temperature quantum fluid (a superconducting superfluid- which may also turn out useful for EM-Drive -type applications, but in the Arxiv paper referred in the news linked by Alan Smith ( I found this interesting diagram. It seems that temperature decreases the pressure requirement for metallic hydrogen formation:

    This was observed by the same authors in a paper written in 2015:

    From the .cn link in my previous post:


    The implosive collapse of the bubble generates local hot spots due to the adiabatic compression or shock wave in the gas phase of the collapsing bubble. These hot spots have a transient temperature of above 5000 K, pressure of above 1800 atm, and cooling rates in excess of 10^8 K/s.

    If cavitation bubbles occur and if these bubbles implode, the conditions achieved could be sufficient to break down hexane, small amounts at least.

    Alan Smith,

    I forgot that while a low carbon coverage may be beneficial for catalytic activity, after long term exposure the carbon deposits formed during sonication in hexane may start becoming excessive and clog the surface of the particles preventing hydrogen adsorption or in other words deactivating them. This phenomenon is also known as coking in the petrochemical industry. So it is not clear if this would be a good way for potentially observing excess heat as I have previously written.

    It may turn out to be necessary to use other liquids (e.g. water) after an initial treatment, as suggested in the Ahern patent application that I linked in another post, which would "complicate things up" in the sense that it would add other unwanted variables which are not within the scope of the experiments you planned.

    Anyway, it seems that the morphological changes caused by ultrasonic treatment of Ni-based catalysts may also increase their coking resistance.

    Therefore, given the very dynamic and locally extreme conditions achieved during the sonication process I think that potentially there is not much preventing excess heat from slowly emerging over time during prolonged treating of these Ni particles in hexane. A further reason to closely monitor the temperature (and flowrate) of the coolant, and to start thinking of a suitable inert load.

    Again on these experiments by Alan Smith: if hexane is being decomposed as a result the ultrasonic treatment (as shown by the deposition of small amounts of carbon on the surface of the Ni particles in that other study) and if the particles have catalytic properties, could not further catalytic decomposition of the compounds formed also include hydrogen? Then the treated particles may also get hydrogen-loaded over time to some extent.

    That was a mistake on my part .... I meant hydrogenated.

    The aim is observing if the pressure waves and the cavitation alone induced by the ultrasonic transducer in the n-hexane may be able to induce some effects (translating in practice in excess heat and perhaps other anomalies) in the lattice of the previously treated and hydrogen-loaded nickel particles.

    Ideally there would be a suspension of nickel nanoparticles, the dielectric medium would be water and there would be electrodes inducing electric discharges into said medium... but this would require complicating things up. The basis for this is this patent, which as far as I know is the only one Rossi ever recommended on the JONP:

    But there also are reports of nuclear emissions (neutrons) from cavitation of metal salt solutions in water, like for example:…07%2F978-3-319-21611-9_22

    I suspect that in addition to nanoparticles the surface highly porous, hydrogen-loaded metal microparticles may also be a suitable environment for this type of experiment.

    Alan Smith,

    Do you have the capability of monitoring the temperature of the hexane slurry or of the cooling medium while the transducer is active?

    This will probably turn out to be a null experiment but I am wondering if there is any difference if instead of ordinary nickel powder hydrated hydrogenated nickel powder is used in the same process.

    The hydrated hydrogenated powder may be powder that was previously treated with ultrasounds in hexane in the same setup.

    This test should not require complicating things up as MrSelfSustain complained previously.

    It may be that the inclusion of transition metals within a zeolite framework can do this - not so much a coating process, as one dependent on the percolation of metal particles into voids in the Zeolite.

    I recall that some (Ahern, Swartz, and I think some Japanese LENR reseachers) have used a material formed of PdNi alloy nanoislands in a ZrO2 oxide matrix with apparently positive results. However the process was rather complicated and required expensive equipment. Anyway, perhaps something along the lines of what I previously described also happened there upon hydrogen loading?

    If pores are needed there are ways to obtain them. I would suggest to also try looking on the so-called "pore forming agents" which are often used in heterogeneous catalyst production. Alkali metal carbonates are also used for this, for example.

    However if hydrogen loading alone is able to form new pores and voids in a certain material then the same material may not be able to hold structural integrity for very long or even at all. This is one of the problems that plagued reproducibility in Pd-D LENR as far as I know. For example, Palladium expands significantly under loading (~10% volume) and eventually cracks, pulverizes, relieving pressure that may have formed inside the pores and crevices formed under loading. This is why pure Pd rarely worked and why only that from certain producers, which contained specific impurities, did.

    With this in mind, it is also worth noting that high loading as Edmund Storms also observes - at least for Pd - is only needed initially to permanently alter the material. Once the proper cavities are formed a high loading is not necessary anymore. So this could be hinting at the possibility of being able to form a properly working material before hydrogen is even added.

    On a loosely related note I wonder if by coating a metal that expands a lot when absorbing hydrogen with a very hard one (perhaps a non-metal, like a proton conducting ceramic) that does not expand at all an even higher pressure at the interface between both materials could be achieved.

    Regarding: "The likely reason for so many replications failing is the lack of HYDROGEN ABSORPTION and not the isotopic ratio of lithium."

    The cause of LENR failure is the use by experimenters of impure and contaminated chemicals in their reactor experiments.

    I do not think this matters as much as you state, but if isotopic purity is paramount why not use alternative elements that are more likely or cheaper to be found in a pure form?

    For example cesium instead of lithium, or cobalt or manganese instead of nickel. Just consult any table of nuclides and see which elements have the least number of stable isotopes.

    What Piantelli is describing to me seems more something akin to an effect initiated by electric field emission from the isolated (small) transition metal nanoclusters. In other words it may have more to do with plasma physics than condensed matter physics. Small particles or nanoclusters in particular in the form of sharp elements can act as local electric field concentrators. The following paper may be quite relevant.

    "Controlled growth of nickel nanocrystal arrays and their field electron emission performance enhancement via removing adsorbed gas molecules"…e/c2ce26456k#!divAbstract

    In practice these small antennas given a suitable input would excite and ionize the hydrogen atoms adsorbed on the surface and located just above the surface.

    Besides, in a different patent from Piantelli it is also suggested that for producing a larger amount of H- ions in addition to those created at the surface of the transition metal clusters it is advantageous to use various methods of ionization (see the abstract here: ). I think would be a quicker and easier way to obtain the same effect than relying on precisely crafted delicate nanostructures.

    I think what Piantelli is saying here is that absorption is a competing process for the reaction and should be avoided whenever possible. As far as I know the transition metal clusters he uses are currently in the form of thin films, so there is not much potential for absorption there in the first place. To prevent chemisorption and favor adsorption he also provides hydrogen by external means at a low speed and low incident angle relative to the clusters (which is again the complete opposite of what Rossi has suggested in the past, as far as I remember). This is also mentioned in the previously indicated document.

    I do not think that the H- ion formation theory may necessarily be correct, but I do think that many people have misunderstood what Piantelli actually does. With this document his theory of operation should be clearer.

    Not everybody may be aware of this, but according to Piantelli et al. chemisorption (absorption) is a deleterious effect for the LENR effect and must be avoided. The LENR effect for all intents and purposes occurs on the surface of the metal, where atoms are adsorbed. This is the exact opposite of what other proponents - Rossi in particular - have suggested so far.

    A detailed explanation of the Piantelli theory was provided on a patent opposition appeal for the European patent application EP09806118 on 2016-03-14 ("Statement of grounds of appeal") here:

    Here is a gallery of screenshots from the document: (24 pages)

    Some selected excerpts below. I would suggest to read the entire document.

    MrSelfSustain wrote:

    The number one requirement for nickel powder to absorb hydrogen is that it is free from oxides.

    Nickel does not absorb significant quantities of hydrogen under normal conditions, no matter how clean the surface is. Surface cleanliness should only affect the rate of absorption, not the amount of hydrogen absorbed.

    If large differences in absorption are observed they have to be treated as an anomaly to be further investigated, not dismissed as ordinary behavior. It is not the ordinary behavior of bulk nickel to absorb large quantities of hydrogen.

    On the other hand, adsorption inside newly formed pores and cavities, segregated pores, or inside cavities that are not large enough to trap other gases may be mistaken for absorption. But if it is porous materials that one is looking for then there are more efficient ways to do that, and other materials may be used too.


    you can perform baking under vacuum to produce the micro-cavities (which Rossi describes) and other surface and interior defects

    No such thing will be produced just by baking under vacuum.

    On the other hand, by suddenly introducing hydrogen at very high temperatures the nickel oxides will be completely and quickly reduced, leaving a porous structure at the nanometric scale even inside the bulk of the material. So an idea could be directly starting from NiO instead of clean Ni. This paper has already been posted a few times in the past, but it looks like people are not interested in simple and effective ideas:

    If ordinary gaseous hydrogen transitions to Rydberg matter or ultra-dense hydrogen, pressure should decrease. The latter two are not gases.

    Rydberg matter (H(1)) has been calculated to have a density of about 0.6 Kg/dm3 (8-9 times the density of liquid hydrogen).
    Ultra-dense hydrogen (H(0)) is supposed to have a calculated density of about 140 Kg/dm3 and to usually form thin films on metal and metal oxide surfaces.

    The conversion to ultra-dense hydrogen alone should be strongly exothermic, releasing a few hundred eV per atom. This however is still well below the realm of nuclear energy.

    Once H(1) is formed the transition to H(0) should be spontaneous.