Don't worry, he's passed the filibustering relay to you and you're doing a flawless job
Roger
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- Member since Dec 16th 2016
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Posts by Roger
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I think the main issue at is that at L-F you have a lot of* people with a strong technical background who have come to the conclusion that Rossi's claims are entirely ridiculous. On the other side there are people who apparently lack any technical training, experience, or knowledge**, who basically just argue that they believe what Rossi tells them.
By "strong technical background", do you mean software analysts and electronic circuits teachers writing 2k+ posts about thermocouples? and by people "lacking any technical training, experience, or knowledge", industry-savvy engineers having worked with steam or complicated machinery for decades (Engineer48, Peter Gluck, Rionrlty and others) ?
There definitely is desperation in the air -
"We don't have written proof of what we say about our communication with Rossi because it was all oral, we don't understand what he means when writing in all caps, so we figured it was best not to create solid evidence of disagreement in what we were feeling was a volatile situation"
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What are we looking at here?
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This is fascinating. As one of the premier OCD sufferers here (though on tech matters more than glass) I appreciate the thoroughness with which windows, reflections and steam have been considered.
Perhaps because I suffer this interest in details I've learnt over years that it is important also to keep track of the big picture.
True. And since we can barely say anything about flowrate, pumps or heat exchanger because we don't have all the info necessary, we can just say that so far, quite a bit of FUDding has been debunked (which lends credence to Rossi's claims, and sheds doubt on the impartiality of people pushing said FUD), and wonder why some find necessary to write Lomax-level paragraphs about stuff we can't really say much about, lacking the necessary info.
What we can say is: either Rossi is a hypnotist mastermind having successfully fooled elements of the military, industrial sector, scientific crowd, and quite a few big investors (through IH/Cherokee) over the course of 10+ years and several continents, or he's having some kind of commercial divorce with IH/Cherokee, quite possibly IP-related.
Just trying to keep track of the big picture and to see what does seem factually more likely. -
If you want to take on extraordinary, ad-hoc conspiracy theories go to ECW where everyone who disagrees with Rossi is a liar, or part of some conspiracy.
Where Engineer48 is the resident expert and anyone who wants to take part in a technical discussion with him, such as Paradigmnoia or THH gets banned
I'm sure neutral observers can read both Engineer48 at ECW and our resident experts here, then make up their own mind about what seem more rational/plausible
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There is absolutely no doubt that Rossi fooled various people in the military, in some private companies, and some investors. That is not such a noteworthy accomplishment. Military organizations are large and you can always find a few people in them you can fool. There were many others in the U.S. military he did not fool. I have been in touch with them. They never believed a word he said.
His e-mails show that he fooled people about various things, such as the existence of his independent company, and the existence of the heat exchanger in the mezzanine. Evidently he fooled Dr. Wong about the heat exchanger. He has fooled dozens of people here and elsewhere on the internet about various things.
It is not difficult to fool some scientists, for a while anyway.
It isn't as if he fooled millions of people. He is a con man. Fooling people is what he does for a living. He is pretty good at it. This is not a particularly unusual or noteworthy accomplishment. He is not a world-class con man such as Bernie Madoff. Surely you are aware that con men are common, and many investors, military organizations and others are often swindled. You can read about such things in the newspaper any day of the week.
Defkalion also swindled investors. There have been many others in the so-called "over unity energy" field. Many of the lasted longer than 10 years. There have not been many in cold fusion until now, because cold fusion never attracted any funding, so it has not been a lucrative target for swindlers.
I believe you've been in touch with some military who told you things, just like IH/Cherokee told you things. We're now seeing how those hearsays are unraveling.
JMP seems like a ghetto-rigged backup plan put in place after Johnson Matthey didn't go forward with whatever agreement they had, and maybe IH/Cherokee took liberties with the IP, which might have pushed Rossi to not really care about complete transparency.
We don't know yet about the heat exchanger, whether it's real or not (but given what we know about the rest of the set-up and surroundings, there's no reason it couldn't have been where Rossy says, check ECW)
Do you realize how much ad hoc theories you have to create in order to come to the conclusion that it's not a banal business/IP dispute about an extraordinary invention, but an epic story of lies and deceit woven by a super crafty indomitable hypnotist playing tricks on the minds of way more than average people from scientific, military and private business (financial and industrial) backgrounds, over the course of 10+ years, and several continents?
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It works both ways. When people want to believe something, and they suffer from wishful thinking, they conjure up ad hoc hypothesis to make it seem the thing is real. Such as invisible pipes
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According to facts, what does seem more likely: that Rossi and his partners (whose internal communication shows the invention works) have an IP fight, or that Rossi runs a 10+ year long scam in which he successfully fooled militaries, big private companies (who all seem interested once a reliable design is reached), scientists from different countries and investors?
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When people don't want something to be real, they will conjure up all sorts of ad hoc hypothesis
I'll leave to the sagacity of readers to judge which side of the debate uses the most of those mental modelizations
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Maybe he hired contractors/actors when he went out to buy his toupee, to stage a fake "professional training"? this seems the most likely hypothesis, I mean, one which can be accepted by our Internet Experts
Waiting on those aforementioned Experts to debunk the equations, I'm certain they can prove that they're off by a factor of at least 22k
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How the hell would I know the exact month? They told me that a long time before it ended. I don't recall when. Some of the lawsuit documents show they knew that long before it ended. You will have to look through them yourself.
Any knowledgeable person who saw Penon's data could see it was fake. I don't know when he first gave them data, but as you see from Murray's letter to Penon (Exhibit 5) it didn't fool them.
This document clearly shows they thought there was no heat before the lawsuit:
http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?p=1741
My guess is that it took them a while to be sure, but I know they had doubts before Rossi moved the gadget to Florida.
So what you're saying is that there is no historical trace for IH/Cherokee concluding that there was no excess heat in 2015 or 2016, that we should consider this whole affair upon their present depositions, and that the pre-emptive declaration of IH/Cherokee in March 2016, knowing full well that Rossi was going to sue them in some way or anothersince they had seeded his IP, should be considered as proof the E-Cat doesn't work?
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I think it's fairly safe to say nobody knows for sure whether the IP agreement really covers the Quark-X, what can the outcome of the lawsuit can be, regarding this IP (how does a breach of contract affect it, on one side or another?), and whether there will or won't be further lawsuits concerning this IP .
Also, there's the issue of GPT/time limits. Even if Rossi demonstrates (once again) something for all to see, the contract legalese might make it that he is not entitled to the millions
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Perhaps you have not read the uploaded documents. They decided this long before Rossi sued them. Anyone can confirm that. Your statement is flat-out wrong. You are making of fool of yourself. Why? What is the point of saying things that anyone can see are factually wrong?
I'm interested to check out those documents. Are you saying they date back to before the lawsuit, and unequivocally state that IH/Cherokee had come to the conclusion -before lawsuit- that the gadget produced no excess heat? Please give me the references, I'll be happy to read them.
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Engineer48 actually seems to work in a field related to large quantities of steam production and manipulation. Paradigmania and Huxley, nobody knows, but boy do they like writing on the Internet.
Rossi sets up some kind of system to use heat from the plant and transform whatever in a big black box, after falling out of a deal with Johnson Matthey: according to you this falling out of a deal means that Rossi had nothing going on, for Leonardo's own puprposes, in that big black box, even though there is a court doc picture of the inside, with pipes - not the same ones as the supposed heat exchanger on the floor above -
There are 89 million reasons for IH not to pay for a perhaps already commercially obsolete IP, and more than that for Rossi to sue them, and get full control back over his IP, which he evolved the Quark-X out of.
IH said they had results, then 2+ years later, after having worked on the tech with no recorded issues, after having got investors on board (who probably checked out the tech themselves), they decide there never was any excess heat... but only after Rossi sued them.
What you call "new information" is probably "legal-ready rewriting of history to keep hold of a valuable IP", but what do I know, I only look at a timeline of facts and statements.
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There are a lot of known and technically feasible things that the (civil) world doesn't have, for a number of reasons
Once again I admire your logic: "if X works, then X will be built and commercialized, because there are no other factors weighing in on the commercialization of X apart from its feasibility"
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Did MFMP test the reactors that IH built themselves, and the protocol they used to witness "significant excess heat", in their own words? Also, it seems that the Lugano team answered your questions about emissivity. But I'll hold my judgment, I really have no idea who I should trust, between a group of multinational scientists working in their field of knowledge, and an Internet Emissivity Expert!
I do like your logic though: "Because it's possible to make an error about X, you therefore have made this very error, even though I haven't been near X whatsoever and only worked on a vague model to come to this conclusion"
There are a a lot of good reasons to explain why IH did not pay Rossi, the most probable one having to do with the Quark-X, which may or may not have been covered by the IP agreement between Rossi and IH. But in doubt, it was only sensible for them not to pay.
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Maybe you believe that IH are liars (on oath) and fools as well as greedy capitalists?
If they had excess heat (other than experimental error) ie something like what was claimed from Lugano we have the following logical sequence:
(1) IH hold (from the Rossi contract) IP and license to something of extraordinary value
(2) IH would want to commercialise this is fast as possible because the IP protection is flaky and first mover advantage matters
(3) IH would have large investments from Woodward funds etc easily available
Now, you I think believe that all these things hold, but for some reason IH choose to do nothing for 18 months stuck in a law suit with Rossi. Why?
Because they're stuck in an IP-related lawsuit and cannot put this IP to use, as they're stuck in a lawsuit related to this IP, which they cannot reasonably put to use before the end of the lawsuit?
Are you claiming MFMP have tested IH's reactors, or Rossi's?
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Bit evasive, neither a yes or a no.
You do know that Rossi has admitted there was no customer, it was a fake setup.
So with no customer do you still think there was some production going on with platinum sponges?
If so then convince me, what information do you base your belief on?
Reality is evasive to intellect, mind and senses. Achilles bridges half the distance between him and the turtle, but there is always half the distance left to cover, then another half, then another half... Achilles never actually outpaces the turtle.
Rossi gives the know-how to build reactors to IH/Cherokee/etc, they build Ni-H based reactors, test them and witness significant excess heat (back in 2013) but there's always the Internet Emissivity Experts to convince... there never was any excess heat.
Rossi sets up some kind of system to use heat from the plant and transform whatever in a big black box, after falling out of a deal with Johnson Matthey... there never was any heat nor transformation of none product in that big black box which was really either 1) a small fan or 2) a radiator
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We have been around this so many times now.
So just to be absolutely clear.
You think it is possible that Rossi was providing energy for some kind of production (possibly platinum sponges) for JM Products.
Is that actually what you are stating?
I've said it before, I'll say it again: just like Lord Kelvin, I know that heavier-than-air flying is physically impossible (and that X-rays will prove to be a hoax)
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Seems like we laid that one to rest some time ago. Have you read Rossi's depositions yet; 194-03/07/08? If not, go do so and then report back about any product you read of. If that does not convince you, maybe another look at the black box just might. Nothing going on in there, that is for sure.
Just took a look at those depositions. Rossi talks about platinum sponges, graphite and graphene, and repurposing the two Multifan fans for some kind of production linked to JM Products.
I guess it would be hard to report back about any product by reading those docs, or even read about any product, since Rossi doesn't want to openly disclose what he's been using the heat for. Which is not a crime, because trade secrets.
So now, according to you, we have a scammer sueing his investors and depositing before the Law absolute lies, as, according to you, nothing ever happened in that big black box.
That big black box that has been identified by Jed Rothwell as a radiator, even though the serpentine radiator Rossi talks about, was supposedly on the upper floor, to which pipes coming out of this BBB lead to
This is quickly turning into Baghdad Bob's Alternate Facts vs. Common Sense
