THHuxleynew Verified User
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Posts by THHuxleynew

    I find this thread fascinating. I measure everything against what I know about Papp's engine. It was the perfect black box, putting power out with nothing going in. It would fail all attempts at calorimetry. A great discussion about nothing. Wunderbar!

    On the contrary - such a perfect box would be very easy to test - black box - in a calorimeter. You would need to extract enough energy out total for this to be more that could reasonably be got from chemical reactions inside the box (think oxyacetylene cylinders, although there are many other options, delivering more energy for given volume.


    PS - reminded by Daniel_G below that Papps Engine had torque out.


    That would need to be measured for mech power out. The problem there is that you can get a lot of mechanical power from a small cylinder of LNG and O2 from the air. Or even O2 from another cylinder. So testing it - you would need a lot of effort to rule out the possibility that in fact it was some engine based on normal chemical reactions. Mechanical power out for a very long time with nothing in would do it.


    The Papp demos had power going in?


    THH

    There is a long list of experiments that LENR advocates would say show positive results, in some cases replicated.


    Skeptics would disagree and say that the results are either irreproducible (one-off never seen again) or inconclusive - not enough characterisation to eliminate unexpected experimental errors.


    It might be useful to have a list of the replicated results.

    The data we have that shows the exponential relationship of xsh to temperature is real and from Mizuno’s experiments. The data I published at iccf24 also showed an increase according to temperature but not an exponential function. This is related to the small surface area vs. the type of calorimeter used we believe. We also don’t have control of all the variable in an outside replication experiment. The reactors under construction now have a much higher surface area and the new calorimeters we are building also will incorporate several improvements meant to get more resolution and faster results allowing us to do more data points in a shorter time span.

    Just make sure you are measuring for long enough to rule out Arrhenius like behaviour from chemical reactions: obviously with larger samples you need to measure for longer.


    THH


    Re the Vit D paper, note that the before/after high dose Vit D supplementation:

    (1) shows much higher Vit D levels

    (2) does not show any statistically significant effect on the many other things measured.


    There may be an association between Vit D and arterial stiffness, but based on this study not one that supplementation changes.


    THH


    the fundamental concepts of some embodiments of the present invention, namely, locally hot - globally cold fuel, process initiation and control by hot neutrons created in this particular case by photodistintegration of deuterons by gamma radiation, high density cold fuel, and highly screened fuel nuclei created from a combination of shell and conduction electrons and plasma channels from gamma irradiation.


    And this is an example of where things get slippery.


    All of the above is uncontentious. It is backed by peer-reviewed literature.

    photodisintegration of deuterium (1942)

    Screening (Pines, NASA, 2020)


    But it is not theory that supports LENR, because without very high energies (which cost you more than what you get out) in the published work shows reaction rates much too low to be useful. By a very large amount. There is quite a lot of interest in finding laser targets which could release more energy than goes in and potentially be a source of energy. This is mainstream fusion research (I suspect a lot related to weapons rather than civil fusion). The part of the google guys research that is easily picked up is where they look at how nuclear reaction rates could be increased by screening in metal hydrides etc. I like it - and hope for something surprising and good to come of it. I am not however that hopeful - what everyone says that that very high screening ratios happen at low energies: which sort of does not help because the non-screened reaction rates are then astronomically low! The rates found are just nowhere near what could be useful.


    Anyone can jump on that and claim that their poor calorimetry that shows anomalous excess heat is doing it for that reason. You would need characterisation that made a more direct link to believe it. Patents tend to make these claims because the bar is not high to get a patent passed, if you can attach your claim to some vaguely plausible bit of theory people let it through knowing that real challenge comes from Courts and only if it ever works.


    The experiments described herein were guided by the theoretical analysis. The experiments described below further illustrate the fundamental concepts of some embodiments of the present invention, namely, locally hot - globally cold fuel, process initiation and control by hot neutrons created in this particular case by photodistintegration of deuterons by gamma radiation, high density cold fuel, and highly screened fuel nuclei created from a combination of shell and conduction electrons and plasma channels from gamma irradiation.


    -end quote

    GBG - that is not credible science. That is somone saying something in a patent.


    I would be happy if somone presented this credible science (as detailed papers) so that it can be reviewed by other scientists and found of merit (or otherwise).


    You are I think influenced by NASA, military etc interest. I am profoundly skeptical of both. That is - NASA have the resources and people to do good experiments and validations, they have their share of way out ideas and are not known for new theoretical developments. The military do even better with way out ideas, and I would not trust their interest as an indication that something was real.


    So what influences me? Good scientific papers, critiqued by other scientists. Companies who actually have working stuff. Pre-production - that has useful characteristics - is fine - a demo that it is claimed demonstrates some non-standard theory that (it is claimed) would enable future technology to be developed is not fine. For that i want the scientific papers and experiments backing them up. For LENR a black box reactor clearly testable as delivering useful amts of power for long enough periods to make chemical sources impossible would be fine, if independently tested by serious parties (not tame academics liked by the inventor).


    Anyway delving into teh patent literature you can find everything under the sun - not working. Looking at expressions of low cost interest, or especially things done behind closed doors, from any governmental organisation you also find everything under the sun. If I claimed I had a spay that could make people grow a second head, and might therefore help decapitated soldiers to fight on, I bet it would be snapped up by the US military and classified on scanty evidence.


    THH

    there are certain types of people who are far more likely to stick to the status quo or mainstream view point even if a mountain of contrary data points exist. The mainstream view is safer and more comfortable in their minds, not to mention less likely to earn them the scorn of their peers. Then again, there are people at the other end of the spectrum that form opinions based on too little evidence, too few data points, and a lack of understanding. Even if what they sometimes say has a nugget of truth, they say things that are so sloppy and over reaching it makes everything they say seem off. For example, I've met people who have, in my opinion, several valid points about COVID but they'll blurt out that the virus doesn't even exist or that the vaccine is going to mutate people's DNA (instead of specifying that it may change the epigenetic expression). It makes me cringe, because I realize that they're making everyone who has reasonable (yet non-mainstream) view points about COVID look bad.

    To take the COVID vaccine example - which is on topic this thread.


    In medicine almost anything is possible. But very little is actually likely.


    It is known that both COVID infection and COVID vaccines and here alter epigenetic markers - and not surprising. It is not known how permanent these alterations are nor whether they have any biological significance.


    The judgements about what is signiifcant are not simple ones, and not ones you are or can make with any level of confidence without a 6 months review of the literature and to back that up a lot of background in biology. (Also we need to put aside our hypochondria to do so - everyone is there own worst physician).


    So, unless we are arrogant, we need to take other people's judgement. There we are choosing people, not evaluating scientific research.


    There are five ways can do this:

    (1) I can identify when someone is behaving unprofessionally, or is just so obviously clueless even I can detect they are not expert.

    (2) I can note when they do the Rossi thing. An individual comes up with an isolated ground breaking invention - possible. Somone who invents - in completely different areas, many different new technologies far ahead of what now exists, they are deceiving you, and possibly also themselves. For antivaxxers this is when a non-biologist publishes striking new evidence of multiple quite distinct discoveries about vaccines, in unrelated fields, that no-one else credits, and that make it obvious all other scientists are wrong.

    (3) I can protect myself from people having biasses by going for the peer-reviewed scientific consensus. It is not immune to bias, but it is the best we have, because anyone can contribute, different ideas get rigorously tested against each other, everyone has a motivation to back something novel (if it has a decent chance of being correct). Alas it is low because (high quality) peer review in good journals takes time: and time again for the authors to respond to criticism and tighten their arguments, remove speculation presented as fact, etc.

    (4) I can look at detail from bloggers who meet (1), (2) and (3).


    One problem here is that I will not pick up outliers with zany ideas no-one much credits. Those outliers are occasionally right, and usually wrong. If I choose the ones that appeal to me I am simply amplifying my own biasses, conscious or unconscious. And on average it is a very poor strategy.


    I can do more than read the pre-digested and politically correct opinions. Reading 3 or 4 different serious scientists who have credible backgrounds, engage with the literature seriously, and are mainstream gives me a variety of different views - the mainstream has a lot of variation when it comes to something new like COVID, and srious differences of opinion as you would expect. Just not cast in the lurid populist and unscientific style used by the antivaxxers.


    THH

    Sorry ascoli - you are right: I did a conversion to minutes and then forgot I had done it! Apologies.


    So we have 20 min to boil this cell from 50% level down to 0 at 50W - but, as you say - the actual time in the final "runaway" part can be much less because by then a lot of the water has boiled off.


    And, Alan and Ascolfi - yes again apologies I realised after writing that it was the support that melted, not the electrode. I did not change it because it does not much alter the argument...


    It does make melting it rather easier however: 400C as opposed to 1400C!


    THH

    Ok - there is some misunderstanding here.


    (1) You argued: 17.5W (40W) is too low to boil this cell

    (2) You argued: a high resistivity film would decrease power dissipated


    Which of those arguments do you now maintain, and what is your answer to:

    (1R)

    CC => higher resistance gives high power in

    Fig 6B shows drive must have been CC

    F&P say drive is CC


    (2R)

    40W will boil half of the electrolyte in 20 min



    You could maintain your (1) and (2) either by refuting (1R) and (2R), or by showing that they do not themselves contradict your (1) and (2).


    Most people I think would agree:

    • Arguments about electrical power in come from V=IR and the observed voltage trace and agreed physics (a high resistivity film forms).
    • The fact of a resistive layer must heat up the electrode
    • 40W is clearly enough to boil this cell given it makes half the water go away in 20min.


    THH


    PS EDITED based on corrections from ascoli, Alan below.

    You say biases, I say closed minds. The problem is that scientist's are supposed to have open minds. They don't. They're like Richard Fynman

    Well, I wish we now had more scientists like Feynman!


    No-one has an open mind. We all have biasses, prejudices.


    Good scientists recognise their failings and do their best to counteract them while agreeing they will never succeed. Which is why independent replication of novel phenomena is so important.


    T. H. Huxley (my internet namesake)

    reply to Charles Kingsley (1860)

    "Science seems to me to teach in the highest and strongest manner the great truth which is embodied in the Christian conception of entire surrender to the will of God. Sit down before fact as a little child, be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abysses nature leads, or you shall learn nothing."



    Source: https://quotepark.com/quotes/1…-a-little-child-and-be-p/

    But I'm confident new models, evolving from previous ones, will appear that can be used to build and design all sorts of systems.

    Let me put it this way. When we have these approx engineering-ready models, all skeptics will agree that LENR is real (though maybe not whether it is nuclear or some more woo-woo mechanism).

    The Department of Energy Solid State CMNS Energy technology patents lead inventor being the interim Director of LLNL, "prove it to me" arguments would just bounce off him. I'm sure he can adequately defend these patents. The PineScie current NASA patent AND clear theoretical underpinning.

    I'd just say that no-one needs to be able to defend such a patent when publishing it. They would only be challenged some time in the future, when the technology clearly waords. At that point it is reasonable to assume more science, and useful working devices (to do the defence) would exist.


    However you say there is clear theoretical underpinning here. Are you sure? Did ICCF24 agree with this theory?


    If you mean the NAE, coherent pseudoparticle with v high Q and therefore high energy I'd agree that is a promising idea that might eventually pan out, but not that it was clear theoretical underpinning. Too many gaps, for example the mechanism for zero high energy products. For that you need the whole reaction to be coherent at quark wave function level. No work there yet that I know, though I am sure Hagelstein would like to do that (not sure that QCD is really his field).

    Conclusion, for those who want to look at the information contained in the documents provided by F&P and interpret them correctly, there is ample room to conventionally explain the melting of the electrode support and the evaporation of all the electrolyte in the "1992 boil-off experiment", without invoking any magic LENR

    Ascoli is 100%, irrefutably, correct in this statement. I do not agree that all of his hypotheses are known correct - this one, as the details above show, is.


    The fact that many people would assume this not true - until they did the calculations - just shows that we need to be careful drawing conclusions from experiments that apparently show excess heat.

    Again on page 16 of the "Simplicity Paper", F&P estimated that a total energy of 102,500 J was required to transform all the electrolyte into vapor

    at 2200J/cc that is 50cc. Assuming 50% evaporation before the final phase we need to boil 25cc which at 50W would take about 20min. Very rough calcs obviously, but it shows you 50W is enough to boil this system! (OK - replace that with ascoli's 40W - it makes no difference).


    In fact 17.5W is enough to boil the last half of the water in less than 30 min. Not a lot of boiling?


    PS - EDITED to change misnamed units (sorry)

    So, towards the end of this experiment all the water in the cell had evaporated, in which case the cell resistance would be almost infinite and there would be no current flow and no joule heating.

    Well, there would be moist gunk at the bottom, probably. I am very reluctant to speculate about the exact characteristics except that it would conduct at least a bit, and the power pushed into it would depend on the applied voltage (how good is F&P's constant current source).


    You can detect the "power in reduces" endpoint from F&P's graphs. As long as the voltage is going up we can suppose the cell is still being driven constant current and therefore the power will be increasing. When the voltage reaches a plateau it is likely that total resistance will go on increasing, and at that point power in will start decreasing.


    F&P's graphs do not go beyond the CC point (we never see a plateau in voltage).


    THH


    PS - if the electrode melts fully, making an air gap between the top of the electrode and the last bits of electrolyte, that would mark the end of the experiment at which point no more input power!

    PPS - if the melted electrode touched (via adjacent high resistance layers) the other electrode then the h50W or so of power input would continue until it melted further.

    So- a whole 17.5 watts. Couldn't do a lot of boiling with that.


    In the "1992 boil-off experiment", the voltage increased up to 100 V, about ten times the base voltage, as you can see from Fig.6 in the "Simplicity Paper" (2). This is the "rail voltage" for this kind of F&P experiments, as explicitly confirmed in the "Heat After Death" paper (3): "We have then adopted the procedure of allowing the cells to boil to dryness. For these conditions the galvanostats are driven to the rail voltage (100 V) …

    I defer here to Ascoli's better research. I was giving a cautious estimate - the graph shows an asymptote that goes way above 35V. Ascoli has found info from F&P that validates his claim of 100V.


    For 100V we have about 50W.


    Whether 50W or 17.5W boiling will occur if the electrode is > 100C - which we have (ascoli and I. independently) shown will happen.


    It is always difficult to estimate how much water is boiled off based on how things look: what we see is not the water vapour, but the condensed droplets. Again, in boiling electrolyte, what we see is the roiling (sic) which depends on many different things separate from power. We have 2200kJ/kc => 2200J/cc (approx) => 1.5cc boiled off per minute to maintain thermal equilibrium.


    At the end, as ascoli says, the low level of the electrolyte makes that level of boil-off impossible and temperature rises till the electrode melts.


    All we are pointing out is that this apparently very impressive demonstration of high excess heat generated, like all magician's tricks, has a perfectly good physical explanation. I am not here likening F&P to magicians. That real magician is the laws of physics in the real world which continually surprise us.

    The is an overall mosaic of evidence that nuclear reactions are taking place in cold fusion experiments. This collection of evidence is continuing to grow at an accelerating pace that cannot be denied.

    I don't actually know what are the metrics over time for money and people working on LENR. But I'm quite happy to believe that there is now a revival in interest. Rossi's debacle remains helpful with investors because of the "no smoke without fire" mentality. And the need for over unity devices (OK - LENR is not technically over unity - but as good as in terms of applications) has never been greater.


    the most credible "mainstream" organizations in existence are not only recognizing this fundamental truth but forming teams and conducting experiments themselves. We're surging forward towards the point that the so-called skeptical view about CF/LENR is about to be widely considered irrational: the old paradigm is almost over.

    As one of these about to be widely considered irrational skeptics - I hope you are right, and that we will shortly have strong evidence for LENR. That would also unlock scientific understanding because strong evidence would come with better characterisation and then the possibility of formulating predictive and disprovable theories. In fact technological progress relies on the existence of predictive (and therefore disprovable) theories. LENR at the moment is not disprovable - although one of the most promising theories, W-L - has more detail and therefore can be (pretty well) disproved.


    I'm putting the skeptic side of the argument here (I am normally more tactful on this site) because of the thread title. To make an FAQ for skeptics you need to understand their views and the reasons for them. It is lazy to assume that because somone disagrees with you they are necessarily close minded.

    I agree. There is too much forward momentum now. When you have major corporations, government agencies, and other parties all admitting that the CF/LENR phenomenon is real -- in addition to posting their own data -- the time for tiresome debate of thirty year old experiments is over. There are too many viable routes forward. A couple are plasma based systems like SAFIRE or what might be the answer to high powered bulk systems, Ed Storms new method of implanting inert particles into the lattice.

    Love the optimism and hope you are right. I'd just caution you against thinking that because a commercial company can fund raise and publish PR (I'm thinking of BLP) therefore it has more than hope and vapourware.


    Stick to the scientists are the companies with transparency towards testing and demo systems that can be tested.