Great story Kev, I enjoyed the read. I'm pretty sure once we have some markets up on Augur that we'll have the same problem--that is, nobody to take the other side of our wagers, not at 10,000:1 and probably not even at 1:1.
You're still on, even at 1:1 on your original offer (versus your generous 10:1)---we're waiting, any time, or 10,000:1 that Rossi will have any commercialized plasma fusion device in 5 years (again, of course determined and vetted by sane people, not Rossisays).
The same was said early last century about flight, and yet it was laypersons who "stumbled" onto the solution. Again we see the desire to bet that both sides have, I just don't see how to get it to work.
There is no comparison between a mechanical device readily interpreted and tested using simple observable experimentation, ordinary physics, and phenomenon, versus plasma fusion, atomic and subatomic physics theory and experimentation. That comparison is like saying that the Wright brothers could also have developed the first nuclear bomb.
Rossi has been described to me by not one but two very knowledgable experimental physicists whose names are not connected with any of his pubic work. By one as 'incredibly intuitive' and by the other as 'able to go from A to E while I'm still working on B&C'.
I'll agree that he is apparently incredibly intuitive in some areas (fill in the blank for yourself), but basic physics, plasma-physics, mathematics, engineering, instrumentation, experimental design, thermodynamics, data collection and analysis are NOT some of those areas.
While it's true that some basic inventions can be done without deep skills in specific areas, relying on broad knowledge, feeding off previous inventions and knowledge (and sometimes stealing), etc. Single-highhandedly developing fusion and plasma-physics theories, apparatus and testing with none of the requisite skills is laughable, and while not impossible, as close to zero as possible. I worked early in my career with the person who was the pioneer of magnetic recording (and many semiconductor breakthroughs) -a theoretical physicist and mathematician who would work out his ideas on paper (using high level "mathematical smokescreens" (as the Brethren refer to that extraneous field) magnetics, and device physics) , had a good knowledge of engineering and semiconductor fabrication, and then would get with the engineers to actually build his devices, test, refine. A layperson (rudimentary knowledge of high-level physics, mathematics etc), is not going to "stumble" on plasma fusion breakthroughs, much less by doing crude "experiments" in rusty contaminated pluming fixtures, and I will wager anyone 10000:1 on that.
Display MoreNeither party made any claims about the IP (that I can recall).
The claim and counter-claim are so intermingled (in terms of believing who did what) that it's hard to distinguish. So I'll assume one party wins both parts.
Rossi wins :
Rossi keeps the $11.5M
IH pays Rossi $270M plus Rossi's attorney fees ($5M?)
IH is out of pocket for everything they spent.
Rossi Loses:
Rossi pays IH attorney fees ($5M?)
Rossi pays IH "For compensatory and expectation damages and/or restitution in an amount to be
determined at trial" -- probably everything IH spent, including the $11.5M, the $5M (?) they paid AEG,
all the salaries and expenses etc etc ... say $30M (Doubled? Tripled?)
Ignoring sunk-loses/gains, and awarding triple-damages + fees to the loser, we have in the top lines:
(?? the forum won't let me add another table??)
Lower lines : WITH the sunk costs/old gains. IH lost $30M, of which Rossi got $11.5M direct and $0.5M (est) salary and expenses..
Rossi Wins IH Wins Rossi +275 -95 IH -275 +95 ^^^ upper lines ^^^ vvv lower lines vvv Rossi $11.5M + $0.5M salary + $5M atty + $270M triple = +287 -$5M atty - $90M triple = -95 IH -$30M sunk - $5M atty - $270M triple = $-305 M +$5M atty + $90M triple = +95 I'm not sure what game theory would say ... IH has the bigger downside, but in either case the loser is bankrupt!
(Sorry for the formatting)
Yes, you have pointed out in your laborious figuring, the simple fact that IH was incredibly negligent in due-diligence, and dealing with Rossi, and paying him $10M upfront to begin with (I've never heard of any technology development contract written like that, never), then (as sane people would) underestimating his gall to turn around and sue them (with the money they gave him, for nothing) after already fleecing $10M, thereby IH losing another couple million more on attorneys. However, with regard to Rossi getting away with his Ultimate Fleece (suing the people that he already fleeced for $10M for another $90M min, or for the Brethren here, his principled, just, deserved, compensation, retribution and protection of the noble small inventor and little people) he LOST, caved, chickened-out, folded like a cheap umbrella in a hurricane, skulked off with his tail between his legs, when his Ultimate Fleece bluff was called--so much for noble principled Rossi protecting the universe and giving "The Man" his comeuppance . He will have to wait to go down in the annals with the likes of Bernie Madoff (although a fleece of $10M with no legal ramifications, I must admit is pretty darn impressive) IH cut their losses, the $10M was blown, and counter-sued to up the ante on Rossi, who chikened out when his bluff was called. The "IP" is worthless and a moot point.
Indeed someone has taken the trouble to make sure Florida authorities are clued in, in detail, about Rossi. However, Florida has a lot of fraud and abuse and tons of other crimes. Rossi is a piss-ant trivia compared to some and his priority is probably low. Investigations take lots of time and effort. Penalties for white collar fraud tend to be low. It just may not be worth the effort but it sure would be gratifying to see the man imprisoned again.
Someone should make a call to the Florida Dept. of Revenue, and IRS, (they have anonymous tip lines, and are worse to deal with than the court-system) just to make sure that Rossi, Leonardo, JM Products, et.al. are paying their fair share of that $11M in taxes to the fine state of Florida and citizens of the US, since everyone knows that Rossi is scrupulous business person, and would never try to evade taxes, he has nothing to be concerned with.
laughable, Rossi attacks IH by bringing a suit and then proposes an agreement to walk away from his attack. I do not see him winning a battle but backing away from his attack when he found that he could not prove his case against IH to get $89 to 200M and recover his IP. There would be no "bankrupt trick" unless Rossi lost the case. Rossi knew full well before he brought suit that IH would likely be able to bring more money than he could to the table. He gave up and ran away.
Rossi folded like a cheap umbrella, and ran away with his tail between his legs, when his irrational bluff was called, and he could not prove HIS case ( the one the HE brought) without perjuring himself and his lawyers. IH simply cut their losses (certainly to more legal fees), and small risk of losing. They'd already written off the $10M that they foolishly lost, the counter-suit was to up-the-ante on Rossi, and it worked.
Display More@Adrian Ashfield
Complete nonsense. How in the world would you know that? Because Mills says so? It's a huge arc welder power supply melting some helpless piece of metal (or whatever) placed in the way. Razzle dazzle nonsense. Same old crap, same old hype, same old you falling for it.
None of the above. Rossi has been clearly shown to be a third rate, low grade, con man crook. Or perhaps you neglected to browse the exhibits in the pretrial depositions and submissions?
I find it utterly fascinating that Rossi and others can become experts on plasma physics literally overnight (even more astounding since Rossi seems to have a pretty hard time with simple math, much less vector calculus and such (don't think I've ever seen an integral in any of his ciphering, much less one of those funky upside-down triangle thingies), and (literally overnight), experts on devising and assembling apparatus for their new plasma physics "theories" AND perform successful plasma fusion experiments within rusty contaminated plumbing scraps, tape, and toggle clamps. When, for decades, those ignorant ole hoards of physicists, mathematicians, varied engineering and trades fields have been toiling away in universities, companies, government labs, millions of man-hours, and billions (if not trillions) of dollars on all that silly education, science, complicated experimental apparatus, analytical equipment/instrumentation, and software--and they ALL missed the fact all they needed was some rusty plumbing scraps, surplus meters, pumps and power-supplies, pixie-dust and a purchased PhD. Amazing.
Display MoreI didn't think you were accusing me of being a con man. Rather, I'm simply pointing out that equating my experience of receiving slander is not at all parallel to Rossi, who boasts about his deceptive 'masterpieces'.
I actually do own my own company, but currently it's just a shell waiting for some pieces to fall into place before it makes any sense to 'become funcitonal'. For what it's worth, some of what you assume about me is true. But I certainly don't take Lewan's sometimes romantic account, which in many places was substantially derived from Rossisays, as entirely accurate regarding Rossi. But in any case, I certainly have not walked in Rossi's shoes. And neither has anyone else. Obviously, we each walk in our own shoes. But where and how each of us walks has consequences.
"it takes all types to make the world go 'round ..and a particular type to save it."
There are types that exploit others for personal gain. And there are types that work sacrificially to improve society and discover new things.
Obviously we have different 'typing' conclusions regarding Rossi.
Given Rossi's new 'unfettered' status, one would think that it should not take too long to determine if Rossi has anything.
But then, Rossi.
(As you succinctly stated and observed elsewhere)
It's rather sad when people admire, deceptive, fraudulent business practices, even if one believes in the "end cause"--that's what's wrong with so much of business, politics, etc. is the crowd that believes "the ends always justifies the means" (notwithstanding the veracity of any of Rossi's "inventions"). I've also worked for fortune 10 companies, for 15 years, and had my own business for 15 years, spent my own money on patents and R&D, own money on litigating patent/proprietary information, licensed technology to other companies, and I can guarantee that we have NEVER conducted any such "liberties with the truth" to defraud customers, obtain contracts, funds, etc. The other classic criminal's logic seen is that "it's their fault, they shouldn't have LET HIM rob that bank". There is a major difference between honest hard-nosed legal business competition and negotiation, and dishonest shady operators--it may take quite some time, but their actions, and karma, catches up with them eventually. People with opinions/ethics like this are however indeed why now in business, one definitely , unfortunately, has to start out with the assumption that everyone is out to take advantage of people that play by the rulebook, and take precautions accordingly.
I suggest you two block on another (seriously); it would be especially welcome if Adrian would block anyone he doesn't approve of. That will keep the air clean for the rest of us.
Thank you Eric, I will do so.
PS, I do believe that Rossi is containing a self-sustaining energy-generating plasma with fusion inside his plumbing scraps...yessirreee--something that scientists have been trying to do for decades with all that superfluous high-tech apparatus such as ultra-clean high-vacuum/high pressure, chambers (when two toggle clamps, an old pipe fitting, and tape would suffice, those dumb scientists) complicated magnetic fields, lasers, etc etc. Rossi is indeed a (yet to be fully proved) genius!!!
Didn't take you long to revert to your old habits. Perhaps you don't know what is happening and missed the bit about the SunCel plasma running self sustained.
Re your reply to my previous post, I think what I wrote there still apples.
I haven't replied to any more of your ignorant, deprecating posts (which you are well-known for), and also everyone knows you have a very high opinion of your opinions. (Oh, and I couldn't care less what you think..still applies). Get a hobby, become a moderator, or don't worry about my posts since you think they are useless.
So you are saying a plasma across a 1.5cm gap is created at less than a volt?? If so, its pointless discussing further.
That is indeed true, they apparently have never seen an arc-lamp power supply, replete with a high-voltage "starting" circuit (with leads that must have special silicone insulation to keep them from breaking down), and big DC power supply and controls to power the (mostly unstable/changing) conductive plasma "arc", or similar supplies used for RF excited arc ("plasma") lamps. Rossi now seems to be playing with arc-lamps (guess he figured some illumination might be more eye-catching to a new mark than rusty old static scrap pipe) . Hope he's wearing his safety-glasses, and using one hand to poke his "demos". It is a predictable ploy for Rossi, to now dabble in something that starts out with so many variables to create smokescreens (even he doesn't understand).
Display MoreRossi recycles the same rewarmed scam again and again. Compare the piece of junk he foisted on investors in 2011 with the garbage he is pushing now. The only difference is that instead of rusty pipe salvaged from a toilet plumbing store, he went to Home Depot and bought a $2 piece of PVC pipe. The ends don't even line up properly! Look at the part covered with plastic tape -- Rossi didn't even bother to make it straight for the photos.
The old and the new scams will work equally well, that is to say not at all, when properly tested, which probably will be a long time in happening. Whether there really are still investors dumb enough to give Rossi money for the new silly kludges remains to be seen but I would not doubt it.
ROSSIFICTION DEVICES -- 2017 AND 2011
Good grief, that stuff makes any respectable plumber, not to mention machinist or engineer, cringe in embarrassment.
I don't think Darden wanted the IP anymore: Rossi was particularly interested in recovering it (as he said in his interview with Mats Lewan and how he then proved accepting settlement conditions) so if Darden had returned the IP to Rossi in the pretrial phase they would never have come to the trial. Darden did not do it because he felt the IP had a great value. Moreover this was not at all a defeat for Rossi, who got the IP, the 1MW and 11.5M still in his pocket.
Well, most normal folks would definitely agree with your last sentence, in that Rossi got $10M (minus lawyer-fees and various expenses) and produced nothing (albeit his Hotdog Cooker Patent, and IP are worthless, so he can have that back, who cares), so he won in that sense. But I believe it was you, and others here, that said that Rossi would not stop until he got his $89M, because he was righteous and could absolutely prove his case, and that was why he filed it (I see you have changed your tune on this, again); so in that case, he LOST, he could not prove his case apparently, and folded like a house of cards when his kamikaze (and probably perjures ) bluff was called.
Rots of Ruck, to Rossi on getting any new suckers...err investors, with ANY "demos" or "experiments" designed, instrumented, and executed and analyzed by Rossi or his "representatives". He had best put himself on a budget with what's left of the $10M after lawyer fees and Rube-Goldberg plumbing and shipping container expenses, and hope the Florida real-estate market doesn't tank again.
PS, Perhaps his "demo" will make for some good entertainment, The Wizard of Italy/Miami Take X, "QuackX Edition", Hopefully he will have some more professional and eyecatching bobbles and trinkets (he should spend a bit of the money and get some of the Disney Imagineers to spruce up his demos) than his insulation-entombed plumbing scrap "demos", say something with pretty flashing lights, glowing QuackX modules, dancing oscilloscope screens.
I agree, Rossi runs it. Do you know the background story though? Do you remember watching the video of Focardi when he explained it? Perhaps if you had watched that, you might not have the opinion you have (or maybe you would still hold tight to it, not sure).
Focardi and Rossi prepared a paper describing their early results, and surprise surprise, the fraidy-cat journals wouldn't touch it. Too controversial. They wouldn't want to risk their careers now would they. Any kind of controversial science ought to be sidelined and shunned. Anyhow, they had this paper, and wanted to publish it somehow. So Rossi told Focardi that he'll just make his own journal so that they could publish their paper. Now, someone like you sig, will say "ah ha!, that is part of this great world-wide scam being foisted upon us all!" I call it being resourceful.
Yes indeed, absolutely groundbreaking, people posting all sorts of pseudo-science, non-peer-reviewed, unsubstantiated drivel on the internet, that is indeed revolutionary, new and resourceful (by the standards of the Brethren, as it were).
He is back fishing again, that (demo) is the bait, and he is hoping a big fat investor takes the hook. From his ECW interview today, Rossisays he has had a few nibbles, but so far no takers.
Ok, I think I've figured out the error that gives the high claimed COP of the quarkx. They claim 0.1V over a 1ohm resistor. This means there is 0.1 amp flowing through the rest of the circuit regardless of the unknown resistance in the rest of the circuit. If the ecat has a resistance of 0ohm (unlikely) it has 0 power through it. If it has resistance of 1000ohm, it has 1000 times more power going through it than they claim by Power=current *current*R. By stating the current through the ecat, not stating the resistance of the ecat which is trivial to measure, and implying the ecat has near 0 resistance, might be misleading. The ecat has to have a resistance or there is no way for it to absorb power. They are measuring the power over an un-involved resistor and claiming that is the input power which does not make sense. Their measurement technique for input power does not seem valid whether the actual power is higher or lower.
Rots of Ruck, to Rossi on getting any new suckers...err investors, with ANY "demos" or "experiments" designed, instrumented, and executed and analyzed by Rossi or his "representatives". He had best put himself on a budget with what's left of the $10M after lawyer fees and Rube-Goldberg plumbing and shipping container expenses, and hope the Florida real-estate market doesn't tank again.
Display More
You must be right. Rossi looks down and out. Luckily he can forget about his grievance and monetary worries by planning E-Cat QX presentations, publishing papers and informing the interested about his progress.
It wouldn't surprise me if Dewey Weaver posts a picture of Thomas Darden on this beautiful forum, slamming tequila's on a sandy white beach somewhere. Celebrating his great victory.
/sarc
Cheers,
JB
But, but, but, WHEN are we going to see the QuackX being sold by wholesalers or retailers, as promised for many years, and as promised is to be soon forthcoming? Why is Rossi even giving "demos" of the QuackX, the Believers have already stated that NOTHING other than mass commercial sales will convince the non-believers, and you do not need convincing--so why is Rossi wasting his time??
We need a company like PredictIt.org to open up a contract. When Intrade was in business, they opened up a cold fusion contract that I collected on. It could be done on Betmoose with bitcoins, but no one was interested when I opened up a couple contracts there.
I've never read a single post here, where any of the Brethren have invested a dime in Rossi or LENR, much less would take a wager--other than IH; they must not have as much blind faith as they proclaim (and are not as naive as they appear in not giving any money to Rossi).
AR's probable LOGIC: Why should I work with critics, naysayer, skeptics, etc. when my technology is proven working, its a waste of time since no matter how you tell them how good the shit is, they wont believe it because they are non-believers.
There is no money in it. I'd rather work with investors directly, it where the money is. More more more business and money.
the 10.5m dollars this money was surely used for R&D.
His "technology" is only "proven" to himself and a handful of followers. But OK, we will wait (and wait and wait) to see evidence of his creations being commercially sold--personally, I will not hold my breath, and the wager offer still stands. Additionally, it takes very large funds to commercialize (even a simple) product, so if Rossi has something, he will need to PROVE to investors to get funds to commercialize his invention (or conversely if his proclamations of (apparently secretly-funded) clandestine robotic mass-production facilities for the past years is true, you should be seeing something very soon....Good Luck!
Display MoreSince this is an 'aftermath discussion'. Rossi in a way is teaching people lessons in how to use or misuse equipment such as pumps, VOMs and scopes and how that can fool educated people, and also at the same time actually inventing a new form of math. On the plus side If researchers duplicate any of his results, we will now know what to look for. He is kinda like the 'Penn and Teller' of LENR. I am also learning here what to check. It in a way is educational. I am not being disingenuous here.
As I look at the current state here in 'a bit of disbelief'. I am not sure why any replicator is still working on the dogbone, when Rossi himself has clearly moved on.
E-catscrapped thendogbonescrapped but now new device that has the same unbelievable metrics. If you use his system of checking measurements you are good to go.
If may ask those that still believe in him one question. It would be what would it take at this point to doubt him?
It also shows that many "credentialed" academics and self-prescribed "experts" are not experts on that much (and often "don't know what they don't know", which is most dangerous), and often have very little practical knowledge of anything outside of their narrow field of expertise--even if related (sort of like when I was sitting around with 5-6 high-level degreed electrical and software engineers and the subject got around to home electrical wiring, and the question came up to draw a schematic of a three-way light switch; well, only one of these engineers was able to do that (in around the 15 or so minutes)). Although Rossi's unbelievably crude, amateurish, mishmash of junk-plumbing , insulation, and cheap meters would immediately have made me extremely skeptical.
