Found this report from car sales in the Netherlands:
In 2020 20,5% of new sold cars are Battery Electric Vehicle and 4,3% plug in hybrids (page 4).
Prediction 2025 50% zero emission and 2030 100%, so that is going fast already.
r.hellenbrand
Member
- Member since Feb 13th 2018
- Last Activity:
Posts by r.hellenbrand
-
-
Here is the latest 2020 chart.
https://flowcharts.llnl.gov/content/assets/images/charts/Energy/Energy_2020_United-States.png
Now only 0.02 quads is electric transport and in 2014 it was 0.0265.
I also see the CNG and LNG (bio and natural gas) part of transport is quite big in the US.
Is CNG and LNG common used?
Do see US is switched from coal to neutral gas compared with 2014.
You say it takes decades to switch to electric cars, here in Europe the last petrol car will be sold in 2030, don’t know how they want to upgrade the grid in just 9 years,...
-
See primary side of these transformers are 7200V, explains a lot why they can deliver more power.
Here we supply with one transformer 10kV to 230V several streets.
Cables (230V) are quite long from this transformer to the streets.
-
Maybe the biggest difference is the amount of transformers!
Here we have one transformer for several streets.
-
100A is huge!
In the Netherlands a 1x35A or 3x25A is standard.
You can upgrade to 1x40A or 3x80A
-
Fascinated to provide almost free energy during the night, just to not power down their power plants.
Sorry but promoting using more and more energy this way, has nothing to do with CO2 reduction.
Just to get an indication about how much amps cables are rated, look at this table:
http://www.kei-ind.com/images/pdf/lt-cables/4core-aluminium-pvc-armoured.pdf
In many streets we only have 50mm2 cables rated for 110A
In the past they often installed 95mm2 rated for 165A
Mine street has only a 10mm2 cable, and in February the heat pump of mine neighbour managed to drop the voltage under the net limit.
After complains we now get a 150mm2, but still the power rating is 210A.
So charging @200A would be the limit for the complete street (150mm2 cable)!
-
Clever system to spread the energy demand!
Wondering if this is still possible if all cars are electric like planed.
-
This is in Dutch, but explains why heat pumps and electric cars are a problem for the grid.
Phase to Phase – Netten voor distributie van elektriciteit, hoofdstuk 3
Look at:
3.6.1 Warmtepompen
3.6.2 Elektrische auto
-
I only know about the situation in the Netherlands, and it is very bad!
Here a capacity map of the grid:
Capaciteitskaart invoeding elektriciteitsnetcapaciteitskaart.netbeheernederland.nlIn the red area’s companies have to wait months for a grid connection, and solar and wind parks are also out of the question.
-
Total energy for traffic is 374,6Pj = 104TWh / year in the Netherlands.
Has nothing to do with the number of cars used.
Electric cars not used can be used as electric battery and can stabilize the grid.
-
Good heat pumps are expensive, and the relative cheap one (air heat pumps) have a huge disadvantage.
The COP of the pump is low if you need the most energy (winter).
You should store your energy produced in the summer in heat batteries and use it if needed.
-
Hi Rob,
Storing hydrogen is difficult, you can only store in a compressed state, the liquid state is near impossible.
So I don’t understand why the Netherlands wants to use hydrogen.
Pumping hydrogen though the now available neutral gas pipes isn’t a smart idea.
Hydrogen leaks through the walls of pipes and what about the gas fittings in your home.
M3 hydrogen has only 1/3 of the energy of methane at the same pressure, so you have to increase the pressure of make to gas pipes bigger to transport the same energy.
Ammonia would be an option for storage, but why not methane, we have an excellent network for it.
-
Hi Rob,
France has a better power grid than the Netherlands.
They go from 400kV to 225kV to 63/90kV to 20kV to 230V
In the Netherlands we go from 380kV to 150kV to 10kV to 230V
So France has a double capacity in the last step (20kv->230V) compared to the Netherlands.
Losses on the HV net is 5.6% middle and low voltage net losses are unknown, think they will be 10-15%.
In the Netherlands the low voltage net has very thin diameter cables and they simply lose power by heat radiation.
Assume the total loss of the power grid is 15%
A natural gas turbine has an efficiency of 63% max, so if you don’t use green energy for electric cars and you have to use fossil the patrol car is not so bad.
So only is we have enough green energy electric cars make sense!
Biggest problem of the electrification is the transport of it, the power grids can’t handle it.
Upgrading this grid will take time, between 10-20 years.
Almost all street cables have to be changed by bigger ones.
Only a hybrid way of heating can solve the problem.
Idea to not use natural gas for heating is wrong!
If you replace the natural gas you need in the winter by biogas, or better synthetic methane form CO2 and H2 out of solar and wind energy, the CO2 emission is also reduced.
Advance of methane is that you can store it in a liquid form (LNG).
All solar energy produced in the summer can this way be stored for use in the winter (power to gas).
For transport I see also methane as the solution, cars can drive on compressed methane (CNG), and trucks can use the liquid form (LNG).
This are all known techniques.
-
Some calculations:
According CBS does the Netherlands uses:
Buildings 380,3Pj = 105,6TWh / year
Traffic 374,6Pj = 104TWh / year
Efficiency of an electric drive is around 95%
Efficiency patrol cars is around 40%
So the complete traffic needs 0.42*104TWh = 43,68TWh
Total electric energy that need to be transported if none fossil is used for home heating is 104+43,68= 149,28TWh
In the Netherlands we have 263679 streets, so amps though every street cable will be:
149,28TWh /365 days /263679 streets / 24h/ 3phase / 2 street cables /230V = 46,8A
This is a 24/7 average current to coverage the needed power.
Peek currents during winter will be a factor 4-5 bigger?
And on top we have the quick chargers for cars,…
You need real big cable diameters to handle this power, think not possible.
And in the calculation we still miss the industry (just buildings and traffic), assume they will get their own power grid.
This is why I think the electrification will not be possible!
-
See you do understand mine point, the current on the grid is simply not available.
So where is the "breakthrough for electric cars""
-
The new lithium batteries that will be the "breakthrough" for electric cars can charge @20C.
So they are full in 1/20th hour.
Current needed to charge them are total unrealistic.
-
A model S has a capacity of 75kWh
At 1C the amps needed are 75000W/230V= 326A
At a 3 phase system this would be 108.6A
Charging @ 20C would be 2172A / phase.
Total unrealistic that any power grid can handle these charging currents!
-
Are patents and not sharing knowledge, a huge problem?
Should finding a new sustainable source of energy be more important than fame and money?
Can someone please look at the VO2 nano tubes, think condition for D-D fusion (if possible in lattices) are ideal inside of them.
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1409/1409.4661.pdf
-in 5 minutes the tubes are full loaded with hydrogen (near 100% saturation but not tested with deuterium).
-Hydrogen atoms are aligned in a sine inside the tubes.
-And loaded tubes are high temp super conductive.
Superparamagnetic VO 2 Nanowires :: ChemViews Magazine :: ChemistryViews
All the things are seen in lenr reactions.
I don’t have the equipment or knowledge to do tests with them!
-
This may be off topic, but has anyone looked at these nanotubes?
They can be loaded by atomic hydrogen/deuterium in a very high load.
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1409/1409.4661.pdf
They also seem to be high temp super conductive.
Superparamagnetic VO 2 Nanowires :: ChemViews Magazine :: ChemistryViews
-
The user-ready prototype of the battery should be ready and they will be tested in houses in Netherlands France and Poland.