- Member since Apr 3rd 2018
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Posts by seven_of_twenty
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https://www.usatoday.com/story…t-coronavirus/5189137002/
Quote'OPEN IMMEDIATELY!': Wisconsinites head out to bars after state stay-at-home orders lifted
Because drinking alcohol in a bar is so essential and critical to life as we know it.
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https://www.foxbusiness.com/po…p-fauci-school-reopenings
"Trump 'totally' disagrees with Fauci on school reopenings"
And, Trump should know because he got his medical degree from Trump University! (... with thanks to Jimmy Kimmel who understands irony)
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If you're into the technology of "RSI" (rapid sequence induction) of anesthesia and paralysis as is used on ventilator patients, this will tell you more than you would want to know. Being placed on a ventilator is something anyone sane would want to avoid at all costs. Most of those folks advocating for rapid and uncontrolled "opening" of the society are advocating a lot more of this:
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If you do get COVID-19, the story below may happen to you and it can happen even to relatively young and productive people, if that matters to you. This is from a health care provider - ETA, correction: from David Norton, M.D. a pulmonologist in SoCal USA via Facebook.
"So, there will be four of us in the room. Three of us will be wearing protective gear and you won’t be able to hear us all that well. You’ll be lying there and I’ll be just above your head. As they draw up the etomidate, rocuronium and fentanyl, we’ll share a moment. It’ll seem like your whole world has just become you and I. And, in some ways, it has. I’ll say something attempting to be comforting, but it probably will not bring you peace. The phrase “If you can’t breathe, nothing else matters” may drift through your mind right about then.
Anyway, in that moment, just let me know if the trip to the crowded social event last week was worth it. Let me know your opinion now about social distancing and wearing masks and staying away from public beaches. Anything you want me to pass along to the others you’ve infected since?
You’re about to go to sleep for the next several weeks and we’ll just have to see how things go. I’m about to have a conversation with your family, one of many, where I will use phrases like “hopeful”, “supportive care”, “best available data suggests that...”. I will not use phrases like “cure” or “clinically proven therapy”.
There is no vaccine we can use to prevent this.
There are no therapies that have been rigorously studied and proven to be significantly effective yet.
The virus is easily transmissible and it is all around you and everybody you care about.
As you venture out, take this shit seriously. Wear a mask all the time when you are close to others - it really doesn’t protect you well but it will help keep you from causing harm to others. Stay away from clusters of people.
This virus is not behind us, not even close. Until there is an effective vaccine or at least herd immunity, you should assume that every single human you come in contact with is infectious or can be infected by you.
If your town or state is opening up, it’s not because things are getting better. It’s because there are ICU beds available to house you for the next 3-5 weeks so someone like me can share a moment or two with you and your family. Unfortunately, I can make no promises about how this will all turn out. Young and healthy? The virus doesn’t care. It’s not personal."
We haven’t solved anything yet. Nothing. Take this as seriously today as you did two months ago. This is not politics and this doesn’t have squat to do with what you want. This is a faceless, ubiquitous enemy against whom the only effective weapon is avoidance. Save your live free or die speeches. You’re just as good a host for the virus as anybody.
Stay safe. Keep others safe."
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I will remind you that a civilization does not write off it's older members. And while some, like your unfortunate uncle, acquire dementia, others do not. One interesting example of a "useful" elder is Dr. Anthony Fauci who is 79. Biden, Trump, Pence and many other prominent politicians are not exactly "young people." Shall we simply write them off as useless and expendable? I don't know where you live, Mark U, but that is not USA tradition and practice. All lives are valuable here.
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They must be so afraid, they are even afraid to tell any reporters.
Nonsense. There are tons of reports about doctors using HCQ with and without AZI and zinc off label to treat COVID. And, there are published studies! Some reluctance to come forward when you publish a study with up to 20 (in one case) physician authors! Siwwie wabbit.
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Right now, HCQ + Zn + Azithromycin seems to be the front runner by FAR when looking at the entire package above.
Nothing wrong with having an EKG in anticipation but to be safe, you will need another one when the drug is taken and thereafter for reasons I noted above. But no, these drugs are not front runners. All the studies, pro and con, of which there are about the same number, are of extremely poor quality. In other words, they do not speak correctly as to effectiveness and risk. So basically, the value of those drugs is as yet unknown. Completely unknown!
If you get a severe case, you do not want to foreclose the possibility that you might be helped by a variety of antivirals including remdesivir (also lacking adequate studies as of yet). You will also want to consider anti-cytokine monoclonal antibodies and finally, there is a great deal of promise for convalescent serum.
This will all get straightened out and more strategies will be developed but this will take a ton of work, money and time. Meanwhile, you should pay a lot of attention to prevention with masks, social distancing and washing of hands, surfaces, and anything brought into the house after other people handled it. And people you come into frequent contact with should be tested, both for virus and for antibodies.
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Quote
, I first would take Ivermectin & Heparin as these two are side effect free, but these are not that easy to get in most western countries
Yes, sure, heparin is side effect free as long as you do not consider a stroke or bleeding to death as side effects. Definitely side effect free in that case. And, actually, I live in a very Western part of a very Western country and my down the street pharmacy stocks Heparin, at least the low molecular weight form (Lovenox) while the hospital pharmacy stocks the other type. All any licensed provider has to do is write a prescription or an order for it. Yup. Hard to get!
Ivermectin in human doses for humans is in fact, relatively safe but not completely so.
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SOT -
Perhaps you could clear up a bit of confusion I have with your statement above. (I am not a medical doctor and do not pretend to be an expert. ) You state that HCQ should only be taken with daily EKG, frequent organ testing and as I understand it "only in a hospital if possible".
Good question. I am not absolutely sure of the difference between testing requirements when HCQ is given for malaria, or for lupus, or for COVID-19. It probably works something like this.
For malaria prophylaxis and also for treatment, the total dose is smaller than for COVID-19 and the length of treatment or frequency of treatment are much less. See: https://reference.medscape.com…hloroquine-sulfate-343205
Also, azithromycin, which also alters the heart's conduction system, is not used against malaria.
In the case of lupus, again, azithromycin is not used. I have read that internists treating lupus with hydroxychloquine rarely if ever see cardiac complications but when they start treatment, I am sure they do an initial EKG and several after before they increase the interval between EKG's to months.
Finally, in the case of COVID-19, not only is the hydroxychloroquine used often with azithromycin (and in very sick patients, all sorts of other drugs), but the heart can be also damaged by the virus increasing the risk of ventricular fibrillation and cardiac arrest. There is also the VA study showing cardiac issues though it is pretty awful study. It just seems prudent to monitor EKG until the use of the drugs is better understood. I would feel pretty terrible if I prescribed this drug without monitoring and the patient suffered a heart attack (MI) or died from cardiac causes. Liver function and renal function have been known rarely to be adversely affected by the drugs and I would think a COVID patient might be more vulnerable so I'd check those. It's easy.
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Maybe I was not clear, but I meant to say that doctors were afraid to publicly admit they were administering HCQ, because of the hoopla created by the media. No, I do not think any doctor would let their political beliefs interfere with their choice of drugs. And clearly many doctors of all persuasions have been using it. Plenty of articles, and that world wide poll of doctors, showed that. They are just very quiet about it.
Do you have any evidence that doctors are afraid to discuss their use of HCQ and many other approaches? I read a health professional forum entitled sermo.com and never saw anyone reluctant to discuss what they use and what results they think they are getting.
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So, is there something wrong with this? She is a talk show host, had some guests who recovered, and is a little (too?) excited over what looked at the time to be a game changer, Not something I would fault anyone on.
Yes there is. Sarcastically putting down the only way to prove the issue, a double blind study, is pure idiocy. We may be entitled to talk show hosts who have at least a minimum of education in the subjects they discuss or if they don't, who can find some expert who does.
“But they want a double-blind controlled study on whether the sky is blue.”
The above statement is the purely moronic. It is arrogant, ignorant and stupid.
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It always annoys me when people treat Chinese Medicine as guaranteed safe because it is natural.
Yeah. Cyanide occurs in natural too. So do thousands of unpleasant toxic substances. When you consider traditional medicine from any culture, remember that it was mostly developed when scientific method was unknown, the germ theory of infections did not exist, most diseases were poorly or uncharacterized and ill described and defined, and treatments that actually did anything were virtually absent. People could literally die from an ingrown toenail or a minor traumatic injury. Diabetes, endocarditis, tetanus, smallpox, etc. etc. etc. were untreatable death sentences. It is a bit of a stretch to say the least, to assume that chemists and doctors who lived centuries ago knew things that we currently don't in our age of technology and information.
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I have a moderate amount of Cloroquine Sulphate 500mg tablets, an over-the-counter purchase in France some weeks ago. I don't see much mention of this variant - do you know anything about it?
You didn't ask me but if I were you, I'd avoid it. Hydroxychloroquine is substantially less cardiotoxic (and has fewer other toxicities and a wider therapeutic margin) than does chloroquine. Current best evidence is also that either of those drugs, if someone decides to use them, should only be used a) with azithromycin and substantial doses of zinc, b) under daily EKG monitoring and frequent liver and renal function testing. This means, ideally, in a hospital setting. And remember, the safety and efficacy is as yet completely unproven though the lack thereof is equally unproven.
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Pence, who was exposed to the virus via his tested-positive assistant, refused to wear a mask and made participating CEO's remove theirs: https://slate.com/news-and-pol…ove-masks-mike-pence.html
He also refuses to self-quarantine:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/10…te-coronavirus/index.html
WTF!
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Heartbreaking: https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/07…s-missing-intl/index.html
"When Flavio Ramos was wheeled into the hospital room, he was gasping for air and slipping in and out of consciousness. So it was his son, Arturo, who first noticed the bodies.
Two corpses laid unattended on the tile floor. By the next morning, the body count in the room rose to three. Flavio Ramos was dead.
More than a month later, his family still hasn't buried Flavio Ramos. They couldn't if they tried. Because soon after his death, Arturo Ramos says hospital authorities lost the body."
... much more in the article. Ecuador is in serious trouble it can not cope with. And yet more: https://www.theguardian.com/wo…/ecuador-guayaquil-mayor-
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Shane D. wrote:
QuoteSo the VA says here that " we know HCQ has been working on middle aged and younger veterans". That is something not reported until today as far as I know
Tell me again how they *"know"* it works? Which correctly designed study was that? I must have missed it.
And yes, Schumer's statement was moronic. Lots of politicians often behave like ayholes.
Talking about ayholes, anyone see the first segment of "60 Minutes" tonight? The segment discusses how funding for the principal scientist working under NIH sponsorship with the internationally well-reputed Wuhan Virus Lab - his funding was stopped. Why? Because he said that the scientific evidence shows a) the virus could not possibly be synthetic and b) it did not come from an accidental release but rather from an animal source, most probably pengelins. So guess who the ayhole is who always seems to cut science funding from the most critical and essential places usually because he is too stupid and lazy to understand it.
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You keep saying you understand that the cure can't be worse than the disease, but then go on to dwell only on the fatality numbers associated with the disease. Personally I think you only give lip service to those who have been, and will be devastated by the shut downs. All you really care about is dramatizing the death toll on one side of the equation. That sounds like politics to me. The same kind of politics being played out on a national level with the media.
If you really cared about all of those suffering through this, you would be a little more balanced in your arguments. Same goes for the media. Very apparent at this point, that with 30 million lost jobs in 2 months, and >100 million people in undeveloped countries slipping into poverty (which to many will be a death sentence), and so little being written about them, this is more about political agendas, than compassion.I don't know the death rate from suicide or the depth of the damage to the society. In the US and places like Brazil and the UK, part of the problem is the monumental incompetence and horrible example set by the current administrations with the exception of the scientists. And they are ending up in quarantine due to the negligence and incompetence of their leaders.
But my main point should be: your issue doesn't matter and here is why. If you let loose the society, cases and deaths and disability from the disease will rise exponentially again. Intelligent people will withdraw into their own quarantine and stay home. The rest will play a Darwinian roulette game that they won't win. Pandemics are inexorable. They don't respond to wishfullness. They only respond to vaccines, effective medications, social distancing, mask wearing and voluminous testing with case tracing. Attempts to short circuit the process will get millions of people maimed and injured. And the young who are less affected, will bring the disease home to maim or kill their parents or anyone in the house who has an underlying impairment, including one they may not even be aware of. The experiment is being done, unfortunately. The results are not going to be pretty.
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Dr. Zelenko seems to know better. That more doctors are not following his lead (which is also a more traditional, personal approach) reveals that the practise of medicine has become an institutionalized, top down, do-by-rote, one size fits all affair. Not a fan.
Complete bullshit. If Zelenko had bothered to provide a worthwhile, well done study on the appropriate group of patients, he would not have been criticized. His report is a hallmark example of junk science and says nothing, either way, about the efficacy of HCQ.
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Old Dr. Zelenko took a beating from his colleagues, and some town members for his public advocacy of HCQ. Those brave enough to follow his lead after what he went through, probably decided to do so quietly.
Zelenko screwed the pooch. He gave HCQ to people who were most likely going to improve anyway. He used no randomization, no matching, and most egregiously, no placebo controls or multiarmed studies. His report is worth essentially nothing and maybe worse than that because it can mislead those who don't really understand how easily such studies can be entirely wrong in their conclusions because the methodology sucks.
