Posts by jtomas

Quote from Bruce__H

But you were talking about Cassarino's deposition and how that revealed what IH was thinking. I recall Cassarino saying that IH told him that even though Rossi was outside the terms of his contract they would pay Rossi lots of money as long as he could prove the ECat worked. Did you see that in Cassarino's deposition?

Yes. They obviously did not feel safe about Cassarino since he was neutral. I mean they even sort of threatened to bring him into the lawsuit. I guess they thought that if they told Cassarino they were never going to pay Rossi at all regardless of success - he might have told Rossi and the game would have been over even earlier. Somehow Rossi figured out this anyway though. The important part is that IH never told Rossi - They needed Rossi to keep believing - so that he kept on working - so that they could keep using him for the marketing purposes they wanted.

Quote from Bruce__H

I seem to recall from Cassarino's deposition that IH said that even though they thought Rossi was outside the terms of his contract they would make sure that Rossi was well compensated if only he could demonstrate that his technology worked. Did you not see that?

Well, they didn't tell Rossi though. Wonder why? I believe they did offer him something (nowhere close to $89M) to stop the test and just hand over a smaller working device including all the IP... I suppose this was around the same time Rossi understood they simply wanted the IP and was never going to pay according to contract. He then went into Flintstone mode, ie first the money then the full IP...

Quote from sigmoidal

I've read that file multiple times, once recently when Shane D. reposted, and previously at the time of release. There is nothing in that file saying IH "never intended to pay" if it worked. You made that up. Or if you insist that this is true, provide the quote(s).

Nope. It is obvious that they (1) considered the contract to be invalid (missing signatures, time line, six cylinder cats, etc, etc) so that they were not obliged to pay - or that it at least was negotiable, and (2) they wanted Rossi keep working to not disturb investors ("create waves" as Cassarino says), as if was going to get paid. They wanted Rossi to have that illusion. Also it looks as if (3) - they were not able to raise enough money anyways

Quote from JedRothwell

The $89 million would only be paid if it worked. If it had worked, it was worth far more than this. Despite what some people have said here recently, I am sure I.H. would have paid that.

Nope. They never intended to which is obvious when reading the Cassarino file. They just wanted to use the Rossi IP and the Doral plant to raise money from the Brits and the Chinese and them make a nice exit for themselves. Nothing more to it really.

Quote from Shane D.

What is the page # in the Cassarino deposition that shows this? I will go check it out. Thx

I made some remarks. Pages: 132-133, 153, 178, 222 are good starts to get a a feeling for the energy of IH intentions and the way they think. Teaser from 222: "Ah. And ‐‐ and I ‐‐ now ‐‐ it's the last ‐‐ the UK investing team was coming to visit the plant. And I think that was part of the conversation that we had with Industrial Heat; that they told us to be calm, stay calm; that they ‐‐ the investor group was coming; they didn't want any waves to happen; and that they were trying to keep everybody happy for the investor"

Quote from seven_of_twenty

There is nothing I have seen in the record to suggest malice on the part of IH.

Depends what you mean I guess. I do not believe they intended to pay Rossi more than initial $11M for the IP but they sure as hell wanted him to keep working believing he would get paid $89M for thest (but as Cassarino shows that was not in their plan regardless of outcome). BUT, primarily they wanted to raise HUGE amounts of money from the brits and the chinese - that was the real home run they were aiming for. Is this malice? Maybe, but for these IH laywer/money guys it's just business as usual. Although - this time it didn't work.

Quote from oldguy

I don't think they used Doral to attract investments. Yes they had people tour the plan but that was because the investors requested to see what some of the money was spent for. Those investors visited other IH sites as well.

Do you really think that IH should have blocked such visits when investors requested it?

IH incentives are really very simple. They wanted to raise as much money as possible - nothing else. This probably turned out to be a little harder sell than expected though, since LENR is not a very established tech. The Rossi/Doral plant was no doubt their prime marketing tool (it was the only real pilot). I seem to remember Woodford even said that somewhere when the SHTF occured.

Quote from Paradigmnoia

Now all Rossi's potential investors know what to expect.

Good job, Rossi.

Agreed. It does not seem Rossi wants any investors. At least not before the product is securely in the market and then make an IPO. Maybe that is not such a good idea, or maybe it is the only way he can to do it - future will tell.

Quote from Shane D.

I would say IH bent over backword to cater to his mercurial nature. Those same depositions though, show Rossi to be an exceptionally deceitful person. Just no getting around that no matter how loyal you are to the man, or how much you may dislike IH.

I guess they did all they could to achieve their goals. Cassarino (who seems pretty smart) describes the process well. The goal was always to raise money and deceive Rossi of their true intentions (Don't disturb him, etc. ). They needed him to believe he was going to get paid if the test was successful - but they thought all the time they had the upper hand. Of course Rossi needed to act when he found out he was being deceived (but IH started it, Cassarino shows that). He then understood he was not going to get paid so he took the Flintstone approach and sued them after the test. Then IH of course had to engage in the mexican knife fight - and invent an almost nobel class piece of fraud fairy tale.

Quote from Shane D.

he one thing they did have trouble explaining was why they continued using Doral to attract investments, when they clearly had doubts.

They never had any doubts. That's the thing. They were ecstatic since they believed they would raise a lot of money and get the IP for peanuts, and as Cassarino shows they never intended to pay Rossi because they thought the contract was on their side (time line, six cylinder, etc and they expected to renegotiate (maybe if still considered useful) with Rossi after they raised money and had the IP). Cassarino show they were deliberately extremely vague about the significance of the Doral test for the reasons I stated. Although their HUGE mistake was to underestimate Rossi. They did not expect him to sue them and make everything public. That's where they failed big.

Quote from zorud

This doesn't change Rossi's story of his deceptive "test" with removed windows, invisible heat exchangers, no goods coming in and no products out ("Platinum Sponge production!"), being his own customer (under oath) and writing bills to him self, etc.... you can't see the forest for the trees, as all other gullible believers (of course: Rossi said so, and it must be true).

Well, most of it are only speculations from people who wasn't even close to the story. Everything in the court docs are under oath. And I consider it to be much more likely that IH to by by far less trustworthy than Rossi in this matter. I mean they are just simple money people in business to raise money, any means needed. For them Rossi was just another money raising event - who they seriously underestimated. The Cassarino file shows this beyond every doubt.

Quote from Shane D.

The more we talk about it, the more we forget how ridiculous the whole demo was. Periodically we need someone to slap us in the face and say "hey man, it was absolute rubbish". Thanks.

After reading through this: http://coldfusioncommunity.net…ep-complete-Cassarino.pdf I would actually consider IH to be the prime scumbags of this story. It is obvious they did never intend to pay Rossi regardless of outcome but had no problem at all using Doral and the test as a marketing tool to raise money from at least Woodford and the probably the Chinese. I proves that IH sole interest was to raise money - never the E-Cat as a product. Luckily Rossi found out and went into "Fred Flintstone" mode.

Quote from THHuxleynew

Beleifs are important and should be respected.

But we were alluding to the much repeated public evidence to back up the comments about Rossi's tech flakiness and deceit. Those support this "belief". Perhaps you just have not bothered to read it?

You were asked similarly to support your belief. And you reply with this? Sure: "I believe because I believe". May be enough for you, but don't expect it to have much weight.

What are you talking about? You're not making any sense. From what I can see parsing through an endless amount of comments it looks like you believe that repeating your opinion enough times in writing, somehow turns it into a fact. Sorry to bring you the bad news - It doesn't...

Quote from Roseland67

the fact that Andrea Rossi is a fraud and a conman,

You, see. I certainly don't believe this to be a "fact" and since I also do believe it to be a fact that you don't know this for sure (but do not hesitate to state it anyway) the labels you use are more suited for yourself.

Quote from Mark H

Not quite sure how to parse that. You attack and criticize people for criticizing Rossi. However, their criticisms of him are based on his proven (by himself) lying and obviously deceitful practices. Your staunch support of him is based on *what* evidence? Don't bother answering. There is none. He has never had any independent replication or verification and never allowed any measurements but his own (flawed) ones.

Ok. How is that Rossi behaviour can be considered obvious, and at the same time, behaviours just as obvious of the people here cannot?

Quote from zorud

jtomas style brings back memories ...unfortunately (Torkel was always using kind of that ranting against Rossi sceptics back in the days...)

What???

Quote from Mark H

Perhaps you could educate yourself more by reading the court documents and Rossi's own contradictory comments rather than the baseless assertions and veiled insults?

Oh, how does my speculation differ from other speculations using patterns to evaluate the state of things in this saga?

Quote from THHuxleynew

I try quite hard to comment on actions rather than personality - so "bashing" if you consider that as what I have done - would apply to criticism of his modus operandi as evidenced over the 7 years I've been following this fascinating story? If you look at my posts here I point out factually indisputable egregious technical issues, repeated so many times as to constitute a pattern. That is fact not speculation. What about you: you seem from your one-liners to be critiquing those who critique the RossiSays line?

Rossi's personality is fascinating and one of the compelling aspects of this psychodrama, why many of us hang around this story. But that is less important than the technical stuff.

I guess you know better than I the reasons for your actions (I can only speculate). I can see that you try hard to paint your speculation as "technical issues" and "facts" even though you obviously have no idea about them since you are still sitting in the armchair far far away... You are probably becoming delusional; deceiving yourself into believing that the patterns you see are facts.

Quote from THHuxleynew

Perhaps jtomas is correctly noting that Rossi's reputation and future income rests more on his blog presence than any engineering reality, so that internet criticism here is actually relevant? We know for sure he thinks it worth answering points made here, whereas the engineering output is both unprofessional and stunningly unconvincing.

Of course. It's obvious You believe that to be the case. Otherwise you would never spend all that time around here bashing him.

Quote from seven_of_twenty

It isn't terribly likely to happen but I'd be happy if Rossi were back in prison again, where he belongs. Your point was?

I find it kind of unsymphatetic (to put it mildly) to wish someone spending time in prison who is obviously not proven guilty of any criminal activity.