Frank Gordon Verified User
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Posts by Frank Gordon

    As we’ve come to expect, James Stevenson’s experimental approach and the results are impressive. We have wanted to conduct similar tests on the LEC but no longer have access to an IR camera with the right wavelength.

    Shortly before I retired, I gave a presentation at the University of Missouri in 2009 which is a little over an hour long. It summarizes the experimental results from 20 years’ worth of research at the SPAWAR Navy Research and Development Center as well as some results from Mel Miles and Mitchell Swartz. I’ve attached a link to that presentation. Note that these experiments were ‘conventional’ LENR experiments conducted with a liquid electrolyte. You can watch the whole presentation, or you can skip to about 9 minutes, 30 seconds into the presentation where I show a short video of hot spots that we recorded using a borrowed IR camera. Following the hot spot video, there are a few slides showing pressure and temperature spikes that were obtained by codepositing Pd onto a ferroelectric transducer which will record both pressure and transient temperature.

    Twenty-Year History of Lattice-Enabled Nuclear Reactions (LENR) - Hiding in Plain Sight
    UPDATE April 23, 2018: NASA: “For Development and Testing of a High Power Space Generator”The first link is an “Umbrella Agreement”:

    I have a video of hot spots that is longer than the one in the presentation but it is 18 MB and I’m not sure that I can attach it to a LENR Forum post. If there’s interest, I’ll try to transfer it to a web link that can be posted.

    I’ve also attached two files related to a presentation and paper on Hot Spots and Mini Explosions.

    Thank you to everyone for your interest in the LEC. This post addresses several questions and comments that have been posted and also some that came up during discussions at ICCF 24.

    With regard to thermionic emissions, we have considered this possibility and we don’t believe that the effect is produced by electrons that are ejected. However, another possibility we are considering involves thermal energy in the lattice ejecting hydrogen ions from a vacancy at the surface. Most lattice vibration models show linear chains of atoms vibrating in a string. This may accurately describe the situation in the bulk but is it accurate at the surface? In sonar, the water surface is a pressure release surface. Is there a similar effect at the surface of a metal hydride lattice? Why would the atoms, particularly a hydrogen atom that is much lower mass than a Pd atom, vibrate in a linear string at the surface? Would the energy in the lattice favor the hydrogen atoms to vibrate out of the plane of the surface of the lattice? Is there enough energy that the hydrogen atom could be ejected from a vacancy with enough energy to ionize the gas? Could the hydrogen atoms that are vibrating perpendicular to the surface produce electromagnetic energy sufficient to ionize the gas? Many of these questions could be resolved if we can determine the source and type of energy that is ionizing the gas.

    Alternatively, keV electromagnetic energy radiated by the working electrode could emit energetic photoelectrons from the counter electrode which would have sufficient energy to ionize multiple gas molecules. As a matter of interest, in the experiments by Thomson and others, care was taken to be sure that the Roentgen rays did not impinge on the electrodes because they didn’t want photoelectrons to be produced and corrupt their results. In the case of the LEC, the photoelectric effect could be a primary source of ionization.

    LEC experimental results appear to be consistent with the description by KK Darrow. He describes a diffusion driven device where differences in ion mobilities and ion density gradients lead to the production of a voltage and current. In this regard, gas mixtures could be important. It is known that electronegative gases such as oxygen, have a greater affinity for electron attachment than hydrogen and thus in combination with the positive hydrogen ions would produce a gas mixture with a greater difference in ion mobility and diffusivity than that which hydrogen gas alone would produce. Similarly, a Penning gas like mixture involving inert gases (argon, etc.) might also produce differences in positive and negative ion mobilities which would be helpful.

    Our experimental results also indicate that the LEC behaves as if it is a current source under load and a voltage when open circuited. This complicates approaches to scaling up the usable voltage through an external load, of LEC circuits. The LEC appears to operate as a temperature dependent, diffusion driven current source, shunted by a voltage dependent conductance.

    Several people have suggested that LEC output is the result of dissimilar metals that are insulated from each other in the presence of water vapor which as Darrow describes which contains ions of different mobilities and diffusivities. This is a real effect that we have observed. An open circuit voltage in the presence of a small current, proportional to the number of ions present per unit volume, will deliver power to a load. However, the density of ions in a LEC is several orders of magnitude greater than that which can be attributed to water vapor at a similar temperature. E.g. A LEC operating at -55 °C conducts current even in the absence of any water vapor molecules. Two Carlon papers are attached for reference.

    A common comment that we have heard is that LEC voltage and current is the result of hydrogen outgassing from the lattice. We have observed LEC output decaying over time in cells exposed to air where insufficient hydrogen is diffusing into the lattice to make up for the outgassing. However, it should be pointed out that the conventional description of outgassing of hydrogen is that the hydrogen atoms sit on the surface until they join with another hydrogen atom to become H2. It appears that the conventional description of outgassing is incomplete when vacancies are present. Also, if this were the only process, the LEC would behave as a diode which we don't observe so there must also be a complimentary gas ionization process occurring simultaneously in order that the conduction be bi-directional as we and others have observed. These results suggest that flux could be important and this may provide an opportunity to scale up the output.

    The ISCMNS workshop was held from 29 August through 1 September in Assisi, Italy. The program is posted in this link:

    Copyright ISCMNS 2021

    Video of all of the sessions are available at:

    iwahlm14 2021 08 30 08 33 45 000
    01:55 Claudio Pace Welcome 03:15 W. Collis Opening Address 17:07 N. Targosz-Sleczka 'Enhanced reaction rates for proton induced reactions on natural Li isot...

    Jean-Paul Biberian’s presentation starts at about 34 minutes into session 2 followed by Fabrice David’s presentation that starts at about 54 minutes in this session 2 link

    iwahlm14 2021 08 30 10 45 12 000
    00:04 M. Kaczmarski 'Latest accelerator-driven experiments on deuteron fusion reactions in Zr at low energies' 35:30 J. Biberian 'Direct electrical power ge...

    Alan Smith and Matt Lilly’s presentation starts at about the 1 hour, 8 minute mark in session 3 link

    - YouTube

    If more than trace amounts of water or impurities are present, currents ranging 10-1000 µA are easily achievable.

    What you suggest is possible. We conducted several tests using both nylon and PTFE bushings and spacers. We found that the resistance of the nylon changed with temperature so we stopped using nylon. We have also conducted tests where we did not need spacers since the electrodes were separated by about 6 mm. We have not tested cells with spacers that are less than about 1 mm and would not be surprised if the very thin mica spacers might collect enough water to provide a conduction path. PTFE is hydrophobic so that might be a better material than mica. The approach that we plan to take is to remove as much water vapor from the gas and cell as possible which will not only help reduce the possibility of this conduction path but we hope that will also eliminate the voltage polarity change that we attribute to water vapor clusters attaching to the ions at temperatures above 100 C.

    Isn't there a risk in a closed cell with concentric construction that water (either adsorbed in the porous deposition layer and liberated with heating, or synthesized by Fe oxide reduction with hydrogen) will form a conventional conduction pathway between the anode and cathode ?

    Yes. We evaluated this possibility using both analysis and testing several years ago and the contribution to conduction from the water vapor is at least 3-4 orders of magnitude below what we measure when we were applying a high voltage of 800 volts between the anode and cathode that were separated by 5 to 6 mm. Since the voltages produced in the LEC are typically less than one volt, we believe that any conduction due to this effect can be ignored. For reference, see H. R. Carlon, " Electrical Conductivity and Infrared Radiometry of Steam," US Army Armament Research and Development Command, ARCSL-SP-80006, Apr 1980.


    The actual voltage effect apparently started going to 0 mV from about 200 °C

    I have plotted both the temperature in C and the voltage on the same plot for your convenience. As shown, the voltage started to decay about the time that the temperature as recorded by a thermocouple in the kiln was approximately 100 C. Based on earlier experiments, we estimate that there is a 10-15 degree C lag in the temperature inside the LEC. Note that we also changed the load resistance which caused some of the abrupt changes. As previously reported in post #543, our current working hypothesis is that this voltage change is due to increased water vapor attaching to the ions in the gas

    Regarding the reports of a small voltage detected when two plates that have been close together are separated, we have also observed this phenomena. For lack of a better explanation, we assumed that it was related to the triboelectric effect which will not support a DC current. There may be other explanations.

    Another thing that we have observed is small fluctuations in the voltage when we move our hand near the meter when the cell is instrumented at high impedance. We believe is due to a change in the electric field in the surrounding environment. Both of these effects can be mitigated is by operating the cell at 1 M Ω or lower. Ultimately, measuring the voltage at various loads down to a few Ohms is important to characterize the LEC.

    We are encouraged and very impressed by the accelerated pace of testing, enthusiasm and expertise by multiple members of the LENR Forum. We would like to add some observations and comments based on experiments that we have conducted.

    WRT having wet electrodes and close spacing. If there is a liquid electrolyte path between the electrodes, metal ions can be transported and oxidation/reduction reactions must be taken into account at the electrodes, i.e. battery analysis. In experiments that we conducted some years ago, we produced the hydrogen/deuterium gas in situ by placing about 130 mg of Li that we extracted from a rechargeable battery in the bottom of the cell followed by pulling a vacuum and adding about 1 cc of H2O or D2O. The water reacted with the Li to produce hydrogen or deuterium gas and also LiOH. In some tests, the LiOH expanded to make contact between the WE (Pd) and the CE (Brass) resulting in a battery effect with low internal impedance. We chased this effect for several months before we determined what was happening. Whereas metal ions can transit the electrolyte, they cannot transit the gas. To eliminate this possibility, we now prepare our hydrogen in a separate cell and transfer the gas to the LEC cell.

    Our current working hypothesis of the LEC is that the ions are of several different species and that the driving mechanism of the LEC is the concentration gradient that results from the ionization, i.e diffusion. Assuming that the positive ions constitute hydrogen H3+ and H3+ · (H2O)x clusters, (H. R. Carlon, 1980), there is a significant difference in the mobility of these two species. Assuming that the negative ions consist of H2and free electrons, there is also a large difference in mobility for the negative ion species and their mobility relative to the positive ions. Following KK Darrow’s analysis (1932) that indicates that the LEC voltage derives from the electric field necessary to slow the negative ions and accelerate the positive ions, LEC performance will depend upon the composition of the gas. With regards to the spacing, the solution of the differential equation for the spatial distribution of the ions within the gas indicate that it is composed of two components. A slowly varying component that depends on the electric field distribution within the gas and a rapidly changing exponential distribution near the counter electrode that depends upon the concentration gradient. One way to test this hypothesis is to conduct experiments with different separation distances. The majority of our cylindrical LEC cells have had spacing ranging from about 1 mm to 6 mm. We have also conducted tests using much larger separation distances.

    We have also observed pronounced changes in the output of multiple LEC cells, including voltage sign reversal, that occurs as the temperature nears and rises above 100 °C. Recognizing that our current method of preparing the hydrogen still allows for some water vapor in the gas, one possibility for these results could be caused by changes in the relative humidity of the gas which results in more H2O attaching to the positive ions, forming clusters that reduces their mobility and slow down their velocity. (For references, see post #330.) We plan to conduct tests in the near future where we will try to dry the hydrogen gas by freezing out the water vapor before transferring it into the LEC cell.

    As reported by Stevenson, "So it seems that the co-deposition process is a necessary step: apparently the "magic" happen inside the co-deposited layer."

    JP Biberian had a similar result in his first LEC replication test where he used a Pd-Ag rod that he had available. It didn't produce any voltage. I suggested that he codeposit some Pd onto the rod which he did and this time, it was successful. We suspect that the "magic" is due to vacancies that may include super abundant vacancies on the surface of the working electrode. Fukai reports that codeposition will produce such vacancies. There may be other deposition techniques that will also work.

    I don't know how to load pictures and other graphs in text on this Forum so I've attached separate files. The .pdf file is the PRELIMINARY analysis of a test that we just completed. More analysis remains to be done but I've posted this preliminary report and welcome your questions and comments. I've also posted 3 pictures of the iron working electrode that were taken after the test. The initial appearance of the WE was uneven, lumpy black deposits of iron onto an iron pipe nipple. Following the test, there were interesting features that were not present before the test.

    As shown in the attached plot, the hydrogen diffusivity of iron is approximately two orders of magnitude greater than that of palladium at room temperature and is approximately equal to the hydrogen diffusivity of palladium at its melting point. The much lower cost and worldwide availability of iron could be important factors in the future economic feasibility of LEC devices. For these reasons, LEC cells were prepared using working electrodes of iron to evaluate iron-hydrogen performance. There is much to learn from the experiments and other metals or alloys may work better.

    Plot of iron and pd diffusivity.pdf

    I have been aware of the patent by Keene, Entenmann, et. al for some time and I called Charlie Entenmann last year to talk to him. We had a good conversation. They have written a report but beyond that, I am not aware if they are conducting any additional experiments. Charlie has been a long time supporter of LENR including providing support for some of the ICCF conferences.

    Robert, Regarding attempts so see if a LEC would fog film, we have not checked for fogging of film. We had made arrangements with a dentist who gave us some reusable dental xray chips that we were going to place near the LEC cells which the dentist would then use his equipment to readout. Unfortunately COVID hit which stopped that attempt. One of our replicators designed a cell with a plastic covered window and plans to look for radiation but I don’t have an update.

    The attached "Lattice Energy Converter" (LEC) paper has been reviewed and approved for publication in an upcoming edition of the JCMNS. after some format changes to fit the journal. The paper documents the presentation at the LENR Workshop held in January, 2021 in honor of Dr. Srinivasan. An additional paper is being prepared to submit for publication in the JCMNS edition that covers ICCF-23.

    JCMNS LEC preprint.pdf

    You're correct that the LEC experimental results may not require a LENR reaction but we don't rule them out. However whatever is producing the experimental results is sufficient to produce those results. The open question is what/how is the radiation being produced.