Posts by Frank Gordon

I agree with Shane that this thread is very interesting and I think will be very productive.

Metallurgy is definitely involved. Here's another interesting article that models lattice vibrations including the impact of vacancies.

A Model and simulation of lattice vibrations in a superabundant vacancy phase of palladium-deuterium

https://iopscience.iop.org/art…1088/1361-651X/ab9994/pdf

So far, I'm not aware of any articles or models that describe what happens at the surface of a Pd-H or Pd-D lattice that include vacancies and I would appreciate knowing if those are available. Another consideration is the nonlinear wave-wave mixing which can produce localized areas of significantly higher energy. This may be more important in order to find enough energy for a nuclear reaction but it could also increase the localized amplitude to the point where the hydrogen atoms are ejected from the surface with enough energy to ionize the gas. Ultimately, we need to understand how the lattice dynamics lead to the production of ionizing radiation.

I agree with by James’ suggestion to the group to think about how the gas is being ionized. I encourage everyone to start by reading the papers by Rout, et. al. from BARC that were published in the early 1990’s. They are available in the LENR-CANR library. (Thanks Jed!) Search for Rout as first author or click on this link:

https://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?page_id=3018

The last publication dated 1996 is particularly interesting. The bottom line is that they were unable to identify the type of ionization that was fogging the film.

Harper Whitehouse and I have been discussing various concepts for how the ionization is being produced for well over a year. At this point, one hypothesis that we’re considering is that electromagnetic radiation is produced by the working electrode that impinges on the counter electrode producing energetic electrons via the photoelectric effect and the energetic electrons ionize the gas. Our calculations also indicate that the greatest density of ions occurs at or very near the counter electrode. We don’t know how the electromagnetic radiation might be produced but there is indication that vacancies, cracks, or other defects at the surface are involved. Fukai reported that codeposition will produce vacancies and super abundant vacancies and both James and Jean-Paul had experiments that didn’t produce any results until after they had codeposited Pd, by Jean-Paul, or Fe by James. Also, we know that the number of vacancies increases with temperature at approximately the same rate that LEC maximum current increases with temperature. As I posted in #238, based on the current that the LEC produces as a function of temperature, our preliminary calculations are that the gas needs to contain a steady state of 10^10 to 10^12 ions per cubic centimeter and in order to produce that steady state condition could require the production of 10^12 to 10^14 ion pairs per cubic centimeter per second. Lattice vibrations are in the THz range so the combination of vacancies and frequency might be able to produce the number of ions that are required to support the measured conduction. During a private conversation that I had with Martin Fleischmann while attending the 11th ICCF meeting in Marseille France, he mentioned that he thought that quantum electrodynamics (QED) might be involved. I look forward to your ideas.

I want to again thank James for his contributions. His replications plus the tests that he conducted to eliminate other potential causes are outstanding. Up to now, I am not aware of any serious scientist who has failed to replicate the LEC results. I am also very encouraged by the response on LENR Forum. The LEC may, or may not involve nuclear reactions. In our presentations, we report the experimental results without mentioning nuclear reactions but that doesn't mean that they aren't contributing. My co-worker and I are working on a paper for the JCMNS. The reviewer provided positive comments and said that it should be published but also requested more information in a couple areas. While the LEC is proving to be relatively easy to replicate, it is very complicated to analyze so it's taking longer to respond than we had hoped. We can explain the surprising characteristics of the LEC if the gas is being ionized but we don't know how the gas is being ionized. Based on the current that the LEC produces as a function of temperature, our preliminary calculations are that the gas needs to contain a steady state of 10^10 to 10^12 ions per cubic centimeter and in order to produce that steady state condition could require the production of 10^12 to 10^14 ion pairs per cubic centimeter per second. These are preliminary calculations but even if they are off by one or two orders of magnitude, it's a lot. I would not be surprised if the answer involves new or unconventional physics and I would also not be surprised if the discussions by open minded members of the LENR Forum contribute to answering that question.

This is an interesting article and thank you for bringing it to our attention but without more information, we don't know how to compare it to a LEC. In one LEC replication, a leak allowed some alcohol vapor to get inside. The voltage increased but we don't know if this was a temporary increase or what the reaction might have been that caused the increase. Perhaps an electrochemist in the community could explain the energy balance required for the reaction.

Thanks James. Regarding the question about treatment to apply to the working electrode after plating with Fe? I just tap it on a paper towel to knock some of the water off or lightly touch it with a paper towel and at most, let it dry for a couple minutes before inserting it into a larger pipe. I didn't want to wait too long because of oxidation on the iron. The codeposition protocol seems to be flexible. I used 0.1 M FeCl2 4H20 in distilled H2O. I would start with a current of approximately 50 µA/cm² for 30 minutes. Then increase it to approximately 100 µA/cm² for an additional approximately 30 minutes. The current was then increased to approximately 2 mA/cm² for times ranging from 4 hours to one day or more. One of the electrodes actually worked after 4 hours but I codeposited some more iron just in case.

With regard to control experiments, we conducted experiments similar to what you did but not to the precision that you used. Another experiment that we did was to apply a potential between the electrodes while the gas contained water vapor at high relative humidity’s. Carlon published a couple documents while working for a U.S. Army laboratory entitled “Electrical properties of atmospheric moist air, A systematic, experimental study” 1988; and “Electrical conductivity and infrared radiometry of steam” 1980. We were particularly interested in this possibility when we were conducting experiments where we applied several hundred volts between the electrodes. Based on the results published by Carlon and the experiments that we conducted at high voltages up to 1000 volts, we concluded that any contribution due to relative humidity and temperature was 2 or more orders of magnitude below what our cells were producing. For the voltages produced by LEC cells, we concluded that the impact of humidity can be neglected.

I want to express my thanks an appreciation for the rigor that James Stevenson has used. Just as important as replicating our LEC results is proving experimentally that the LEC results can not be produced by bare electrodes or other means.

Also, a LEC presentation scheduled for next Wednesday morning at the ICCF-23 conference in Xiamen, China. In the San Diego time zone, the presentation is 7:20 pm on Tuesday. This morning, the conference organizers posted the 15 minute LEC presentation on the conference web site so people could watch it at a convenient time in their time zone. Harper Whitehouse and I will be online live during the 5 minute Q&A after the presentation. The conference web site is"

http://ikkem.com/iccf-23.php

and the web link to the LEC presentation on the page listing speakers and is:

http://ikkem.com/iccf23/PPT/In…0ICCF%2023%20LEC%20T5.MP4

We are also responding to a few comments by the reviewer for a paper that will be published in the JCMNS.

Thanks again to James and to all who are interested.

I want to express my support and appreciation to James Stevenson for his approach and the experiments that he is conducting. By eliminating effects such as galvanism, we will be in a better position to defend our LEC experimental results. When new scientific results are presented, there is safety in the number of replications and in the number of quality experimenters and types of experiments that have been conducted.

As an update, at the virtual ICCF-23 meeting in China on 9-11 June, we will report new results including that we have measured a voltage and current in LEC experiments where we codeposited iron from a 0.1 M aqueous solution of FeCl₂ 4H₂O onto a 1/8 inch black iron pipe nipple and placed it in a 3.8 inch brass counter electrode. The cost of these materials is significantly less that palladium and deuterium. We will also present additional information on our analysis of LEC data. A paper is currently in review for publication in JCMNS.

I've used several methods to clean the surface before codeposition including lightly sanding if the surface has residue from a price sticker or something. Also placing the electrode in a solution of vinegar and salt water for a few minutes to remove oxidation. Rinse in distilled or deionized water.

Stevenson is asking a good question with regard to the separation distance and the short answer is "no" we have not verified the effect. However, it is a question that we would like to answer because it could provide information to help identify the nature of the ionizing radiation being produced. We have mostly used two separation distances of approximately 6 mm, the difference between the id of a 3/4 inch pipe and the od of a 1/4 inch Cu tube (View graph 11 in the presentation), and approximately 1 to 2 mm which is the difference between the od of a 1/8 inch brass nipple and the id of a 3/8 inch brass nipple (view graph 5 in the presentation.) We have also conducted a few experiments using a larger separation distance as shown in vg 37 which was an attempt to locate the electrodes with different work functions at the separation distance where most of the ions would be produced based on the Bragg curves if the ionizing radiation is particulate. Most of our early experiments were conducted with the 6 mm spacing where we applied an external voltage to produce an electric field between the electrodes. Based on the voltages/electric field we applied, we calculated that the ions being produced would be swept out in less than 1 mS so at the sample rate of 512 samples per second, we were measuring the flux of ions being produced. When we remove the external voltage/electric field, the ion velocity is greatly reduced. Since the electric field is basically the result of the difference in work functions, our calculations indicated that it could take several seconds for the gaseous ions to transit the separation distance and during this time, the ions would be recombining at a rate of approximately 10^-6 cubic centimeters per second. With the limited amount of data and the number of variables involved, our results are not conclusive at this point.

We are currently preparing a paper to submit to the JCMNS by 31 March which documents the presentation that was given at the workshop in honor of Dr. Srinivasan. In this paper, we hope to add an appendix based on our experimental measurements that includes an analysis of LEC performance and draws some conclusions.

I don't have any objection and would be happy to review the draft.

I haven't checked this link for a couple days so I apologize for the delay in my response.

With regard to the possibility that the LEC is a battery: A LEC has many similarities to a battery and we debated calling it a Hydrogen Ion Battery but a LEC is much more. A battery is basically two electrodes of different work function where metal ions are transported by well known chemical reactions through a liquid electrolyte in between the electrodes. The LEC does not have a liquid electrolyte and a LEC produces and transports gas ions. A battery is also a voltage source and a LEC acts like a current source. The output of a battery does not increase with temperature. A LEC has similarities with a nuclear or atomic battery without the hazardous radiation and they don't increase output with temperature. We settled on calling it a LEC,

I'm working on a more detailed description but that will take some time. I reviewed the description that Pam Boss wrote for the Galileo project that Steve Krivit organize several years ago. It contained a lot more detail that a high school student with minimal knowledge of electronics or chemistry would need. The only guidance that I provided to Jean-Paul Biberian was to send the cell diagram. As I included in the presentation, he tried a rod of Pd-Ag alloy an it didn't work. I suggested that he needed to codeposit some Pd onto the rod to make sure it had vacancies that codeposition is know to produce. He did that and it worked. Jean-Paul is very experienced and knowledgable. In the case of Andrew Erickson, he was new to the field but had some technical knowledge. I sent him the drawing an description that is in the presentation and talked to him a couple times and he produced a successful active working electrode. I presume that most of the people in this forum are somewhere between Jean-Paul and Andrew in experience and knowledge so hopefully the information that I supplied on codeposition will be enough. If anyone is having trouble based on that description or has specific questions, please let me know. I would also like to know when people try to replicate and if they were successful or not. Based on the issues/problems in replicating the results, I can be sure to address those i the detailed description.

A codeposition protocol that I've successfully used starts with a 1/8 inch brass pipe nipple 4 inches long. Make sure it's clean and doesn't have an glue for a price sticker. Clean in a solution of vinegar and salt water for a minute or so. Rinse with distilled water and apply a flash plating of Ni using a commercial Ni plating solution such as KROHN Bright Nickel plating solution and using a nickel wire for the anode. This can be plated at a fairly high current level and only takes a minute or two to produce a thin layer of Ni. Rinse the nipple with distilled water. I use a plating bath of 0.15M LiCl in distilled H2O and Pt wire vertically spaced evenly around the for the anodes. Four or five vertical wires should be enough. Center the pipe nipple in the solution and add 3 to 4 ml of 0.03M PdCl2, 0.3M LiCl in distilled H2O. ( I typically mix 100ml of the PdCl2, LiCl solution in advance so its available to add it to the plating bath in doses of 3 to 4 ml at a time. The LiCl will help the PdCl to disolve but you may need to heat the mix and stur or shake it if it's in a bottle with a cap. When it's thoroughly mixed, The solution should be brown or amber.) For the initial plating, I start with a few uA /square cm of surface area on the nipple. For example, 50 microamps for an hour or so to establish an initial layer of Pd. After that, I increase the current to a few mA for several hours. At this point, you should be able to see the Pd deposit on the nipple. If the solution has cleared, add another 3 to 4 ml of the PdCl2, LiCl mix and increase the current to 10 mA. After several hours, the solution should clear although there will still be a light amber color to the plating bath. This might be a good opportunity to remove the cathode from the plating solution and let it dry and rest for several hours. Place it back in the solution and add 3-4 ml of the PdCl2, LiCl solution and increase the current to 20-30 mA. After a few hours, this might be a good time to remove the cathode, let it dry, and then heat it up to 250-300C. The exact temperature isn't critical. I use my gas bar-b-que grill for this step which takes about 30 minutes to reach temperature and leave it for another 10-15 minutes before removing the cathode and letting it cool. Repeat the process of adding 3-4 ml of the plating solution with the current at 50-60 mA, removing the electrode and letting it rest, and maybe heating it up. Also, you can insert the 1/8 inch plated nipple in a pipe to see if you can measure a voltage between the pipe and the nipple. None of these steps are precise and there seems to be a wide range that will produce an active electrode. Typically the plating process should be done in 3 to 4 days including rest times. Good luck.

I'm new to this but if a new thread would help focus the discussion and questions, that sounds like a good option.

I want to thank everyone for their interest and comments. Anyone who has been working on "cold fusion" for more than 30 years has to have both a sense of humor and a thick skin so it's hard to imagine that any of your comments could be worse. With regard to our experimental results, we have learned some things and in the process, have learned that there are a lot more things that we don't understand. That said, we know that something is ionizing the gas. We don't know exactly how the gas is being ionized or the nature of the ionization that is produced.

I am aware that some of you would like to conduct similar experiments so I will list some of the things that have worked for us so that those of you who are "skilled in the art" can conduct experiments to replicate our results as well as trying your own "improvements:" These are not detailed directions that would be required by a novice. We ask that you let us know what you achieved and what "improvements" you made.

The cutaway drawing of the LEC cell shown in our presentation (vg # 5) lists the parts that we used. The epoxy that we used to seal one end of the cell (#6) is J-B Weld Original Formula Steel reinforced that is advertised to work at temperatures between 250 - 300C. I have found that a thin layer of this epoxy also works in lieu of the O-rings that were #7 on the drawing. The 5/16 - 24 thread was selected because that closely matched the id of the 1/8 inch nipple.

We have used codeposition of the Pd-H for the preparation of the working electrodes. The plating protocol doesn't seem to be too sensitive to the details as long as a reasonable plating is produced. We have observed that plating a layer of Pd-H and then removing the electrode from the plating bath and letting it dry before codepositing another layer of Pd-H helps. Also, after it has dried we have found that heating the electrode to 250 to 300 C between plating layers also helps. When you think that the electrode is ready, remove it from the plating bath, let it dry for a few minutes and slide it in a pipe. Connect a voltmeter to see if any voltage is being produced. If not, plate another layer. If yes, assemble the cell, pull a vacuum, and refill with hydrogen gas. As shown in our presentation, heating the cell greatly increases the output.

Please let us know your results and any techniques that you have used. These will be helpful in documenting the processes so that this could become the lab rat for people who are less skilled.