JedRothwell Verified User
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Posts by JedRothwell

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    Jed,

    At what time does the 1.3 exponent start to decrease in other countries?

    In China, it started to decline drastically two days after the lockdown began, on January 23. See Chart 7:


    https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo…ple-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca


    This was extraordinarily effective. Much more than experts such as Aylward thought it could be. The Chinese also used the internet and other high tech method to track down nearly every case, and to quarantine anyone who had come in contact with the sick person. The most important thing they did was widespread testing, so they knew who to quarantine, and they knew how far the epidemic had spread, and approximately how many hidden cases there were.


    In Korea and Japan, the authorities paid close attention to events in China. Korea began to experience an exponential increase, mainly from one concentrated group. They quickly implemented mass testing, following up of cases, and quarantines, but not travel restrictions. They stopped the exponential increase by Feb. 29. They have had very few deaths, and most patients have recovered. They are now getting about 100 new cases a day, with 50 patients in intensive care.


    https://www.worldometers.info/…irus/country/south-korea/


    The number in intensive care is not increasing, so they can manage that level indefinitely, without anything like the triage in Italy. Here is what happens with triage:


    ". . . a manager in the Lombardy health care system, among the most advanced and well-funded in Europe, [saw] anesthesiologists weeping in the hospital hallways because of the choices they are going to have to make."


    https://www.bostonglobe.com/20…taly-dont-do-what-we-did/


    In Japan they have traced every single patient, and quarantined everyone they came in contact with. They closed the schools. They made it possible for working people to stay home by paying 70% workers comp. The epidemic never began an exponential growth. There have been ~40 cases per day for the last several weeks, and 35 cases today. There are now 36 people in intensive care. They can easily sustain this level for as long as it takes to develop a vaccine.


    In other words, China, Korea and Japan have brought the pandemic under control, with little loss of life. It is very unlikely the Korean and Japanese hospital systems will be overwhelmed, which means there will be no unnessary loss of life because patients cannot be treated. Patients suffering from other diseases will also be taken care of. This is a triumph of applied public health. In my opinion, it is the most extraordinary event in the history of public health, made possible only by modern communication and computer technology. When the internet was first made, who imagined that a generation later it save millions of lives? This is what make science and technology so wonderful.


    Unfortunately, the lessons learned in Asia were largely ignored in Europe. The only thing they did right was to test large numbers of people. Let us hope that the lockdown in Italy works, because if it does not, there is not much else they can do to avoid about a thousand times more patients over the next several months. This may cause roughly as many deaths per capita as the 1918 influenza pandemic, because modern medicine does you no good when the medicine is not available and the doctors and nurses are busy with other patients, or dead. We are in the same boat as our grandparents were 102 years ago, when we cannot access 21st century medical care.


    The EU did learn something from Asia. I think it is now apparent that in the U.S., officials and leaders such as Trump learned nothing, and did nothing. Only a few thousand test kits have been deployed, and there is no telling when more will be available. As far as I know, there is nothing like the internet-based reporting and monitoring systems that China and Japan use to track patients. Such a system could have been devised in a few weeks, but it was not. There has been no stockpiling of medical supplies. Hi tech masks should have been confiscated from the civilian market and saved for medical professionals, but this was not done. Individual hospitals have made preparations, but the government has done nothing -- as far as I know from Congressional testimony and other authoritative sources. I cannot tell because the Trump administration has classified all discussions and data as "top secret," as if this were a war, instead of a medical problem. That is unprecedented in the history of public health.


    As a result of this negligence, it is likely that millions of Americans will be infected, and hundreds of thousands will die. All unnecessarily. We could have limited the number of deaths to a few thousand. In Japan, 814 have died, and only a few more die every day. There will probably be fewer than 2,000 deaths total by next year when a vaccine should become available.


    When the Chinese stopped the exponential growth in January, the Japanese mass media and government took notice immediately. Since I watch Japanese TV I knew about it. When the Japanese successfully implemented these same strategies (at no cost to democratic freedom) I assumed the worst of this crisis was over. I assumed that the EU and U.S. would follow, and implement similar measures. But they did nothing. I have lived though lot of terrible history, in Vietnam and elsewhere. I was born just after WWII, but friends and relatives of mine fought on both sides, and were victims of the Hiroshima atomic bomb. I have seen much, and read far more. But now, when I see it is likely that hundreds of thousands of Americans will die for no reason, I never been more shocked and appalled in my life. If hundreds of thousands, or perhaps even millions die, it will be the worst thing that has happened in our history. Even worse than the Civil War, because at least that had a purpose, and it freed the slaves.


    As Ashish Jha, director of the Harvard Global Health Institute put it: "This is an unmitigated disaster that the administration has brought upon the population, and I don’t say this lightly. We have had a much worse response than Iran, than Italy, than China."

    The trend in the U.S. continues. The exponent is 1.3, unchanged since March 2.


    DateTotal casesExponentNew CasesPredicted
    1216971.30396
    1322471.32550
    1429431.316962921


    At this rate, by March 31 it will be:


    312545821.3058750


    That is, ~255,000 cases, ~59,000 new cases per day.

    About the test being painful: sure, if someone who has no idea about the anatomy of the nose just rams the probe up your nose!

    I posted a video of an American reporter undergoing the test in Korean drive through testing station. He squirms around and then says something like: "that hurt, but it was over quickly." The nurse seemed to know what she was doing. She had been doing it all day long.


    I got a flu test with swab like that. Maybe they don't have to go as deep, but it didn't bother me at all.

    Will my new found respect for this 19th in the coronavirus series, turn out to be justified, or will it turn out that I have been spooked into submission by the sensationalism...again?

    Italy, France and Spain are in lockdown. Only food stores and pharmacies are open. Obviously, this is not sensationalism. That train left the station weeks ago.


    Guess when this is all over with (and it will be over fairly soon I predict),

    Let us hope it is not over "fairly soon." The faster it goes, the more people will die. If it is only 3 months, millions of people may die. It it lasts 6 to 8 months, hundreds of thousands will die.

    How did they do that? Where are you getting that?

    Where recovered patients directly re exposed?

    I think they test for antibodies. I know the Chinese monitor the heck of the whole population of Wuhan. Step out of your house more than once a week, and your cell phone lights up with a policeman asking "what are you doing outside?" If anyone is reinfected, they will know.


    It is the largest medical research experiment in history. They are going to learn a lot about public health in general, not just this virus. It reminds me a little of the search for Malaysia Airlines Flight 370. They never found the airplane. They spent hundreds of millions of dollars. You might think that money was wasted. But, it turns out, they collected a terrific amount of images and data on the ocean floor, and learned more about it than all previous research. It will ultimately be a great benefit. All scientific research is valuable. Always. Just doing it is valuable, even if you don't discover anything, especially for young researchers.

    It makes what the Chinese have done with reducing the cases as dramatically as they have look like an amazing accomplishment, almost miraculous.

    It is remarkable. But it seems less miraculous and more attainable when you see that Korean and Japanese officials learned important lessens from China and accomplished the same thing. This shows that democratic societies can also use these methods. The restrictions imposed in Japan do not seem onerous to me. They will hurt the economy of course. They will bankrupt many small businesses. But the government is doing all it can to help workers and families stay afloat, with things like 70% worker's comp.


    1. Why is the death rate higher in Italy than other countries?

    Good question! Lots of people are asking. I have no idea. The hypothesis I have seen most often is because the Italian population is old. Maybe . . . but the Japanese population is even older, and they have one of the lowest mortality rates.


    2. Can the U.S. and Europe do testing on a level near South Korea?

    Sure! Why not? You just shove a stick up people's noses. It takes only a second. It hurts, they say. In Korea they are doing it at drive-through clinics. Here is a video of an American reporter going through the test, and getting a stick shoved up his nose by a sympathetic Korean nurse:


    https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/02…korea-hnk-intl/index.html


    (Okay, we can't do it in the U.S. because we don't have enough test kits. Only 8,000 were deployed as of a few days ago. Mr. Trump was asked about this and he said it isn't his fault. It's Obama's fault. It is good to know that Obama is still in charge in some sense. Imagine how much worse things would be if Trump had made any decisions or was in charge of anything these last 3 years. Trump also said he had nothing to do with closing the pandemic office at the White House. He didn't know about it. So he's off the hook.)


    3. As China opens back up and people go back into society will the virus come back or will it stay below 50 cases per day? To me this is the biggest question.

    I think they have a handle on that. The W.H.O. report described their plans. They are doing it in stages, being careful at every step. Before a factory re-opens, they disinfect it, then they test everyone who will go back to work. They will continue to test people. If someone gets sick, and they will immediately track down everyone he has been in contact with, and isolate and test everyone. No doubt this will cost a lot, and it will go on until a vaccine becomes available, but they can't stay locked down for a whole year.


    Japan is doing similar things.

    "scores of retired NHS doctors and nurses have told the Guardian that they are against returning to work to help tackle coronavirus,

    with many saying it would threaten their physical and mental health. "

    I think the way to do this in an urban area is: assign some hospitals to deal with coronavirus patients, while others should not accept them. I think they did that in China. Then, you put the retired doctors and nurses back to work in the latter, dealing only with ordinary illnesses. Ordinary illnesses do not stop during a pandemic! That puts the older doctors less at risk. Plus, they know how to deal with ordinary illness, whereas the coronavirus may need doctors who can learn new techniques quickly.


    I guess you cannot do this in a rural area with only one hospital.


    In a New York City hospital, the staff met and decided that young doctors and nurses should handle the coronavirus patients as much as possible, because the doctors are likely to get the disease, and young ones are more likely to survive.


    Latest survey shows marked change of attitude in the UK...

    That's good.

    Here is an article by epidemiologists explaining what I have been trying to say:

    The Exponential Power of Now

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/0…itigation-distancing.html


    “We were listening to people, such as President Trump, saying, ‘What’s the fuss, it’s just like the flu,’ and ‘There are only 15 cases, and only one death in the U.S., much fewer than everywhere else, we’re doing great,’” Dr. Nick Jewell said. “But every epidemiologist knew what was coming inexorably toward us.” . . .


    . . . we first need to convince people to take this outbreak seriously, which is no small task. It’s as if humans can only think linearly. But for epidemic modelers, exponential growth is the very nature of the beast.”


    . . . Using the current case counts from the U.S. as of Friday morning, she calculated what the epidemic would look like if cases grew by 30 percent every day for a month — they have been growing by 30 to 40 percent every day for a week — then looked at what would happen if just one of those infections were prevented tomorrow instead of a week from now.. . .


    The magnitude of the outbreak creeps up on you; it doesn’t look like things are growing very much, and then suddenly they are. Today, the U.S. is up to at least 1,714 known cases and we’re only a couple of days on from when it was 1,004. It’s going to be 4,000 by Monday, and then it’s going to be 8,000 by next Wednesday, and then it’s…. Exponential growth is staggering when it takes over.


    A lot of people seem to be asking: Is it really likely to get as bad in the United States and Canada as it is in Italy?


    NJ Yes. Tell me one reason it shouldn’t. I see no reason. The United States are maybe two weeks behind Italy. I think everyone got a shock this week, and there was the sense of a shift, with the N.B.A. canceling and the president speaking from the Oval Office with the travel ban . . .


    I think next week we are going to get an even bigger shock. Because we are going to have, as I said, 5,000 to 10,000 cases. People are going to realize it is everywhere. I can’t go to the store, I can’t take public transportation, I’m surrounded by infected people. We’re not far away from that. Unless we do something — and the sooner we do it the better.



    See also:


    https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo…ple-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca


    Here is an article about efficacy of quarantine and social distancing in the 1918 epidemic, when these efforts began after the epidemic took hold. They still worked. See the part beginning:


    "Dr. Mecher and other researchers studied deaths during that pandemic a century ago, comparing the experiences of various cities, including what were then America’s third- and fourth-largest, Philadelphia and St Louis."


    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/0…irus-deaths-estimate.html

    Well the UK is still not going into lock-down despite WHO recommendations for quarantine so we're going to have the same situation as in Italy in fourteen days time.

    At which time you will lock down. Willy-nilly. If the government does not order it, people will do it for themselves. Nobody wants to end up in a hospital where they are triaging patients. Especially if you are old and they might count you out without treatment.


    Don't you think the Chinese started using chloroquine antiviral therapy as soon as the results were released on 2 February?

    I have no idea. They are pragmatic, so if it works, I suppose they are using it.


    The UK NHS pays for chiropractic services because they have been statistically shown to work in many patients. The theory is crackpot, but the therapy works. That's the pragmatic approach.


    if you want to survive every possible avenue in fighting the coronavirus will be used whether approved by government and medical professionals or not.

    I do not think governments will object to chloroquine. They will have their hands full.


    In China, the government even promotes the use of traditional Chinese medicine to treat coronavirus. That seems misguided to me. Allowing it is fine, but I wouldn't promote it. I doubt that any traditional medicine from any part of the world does much good. It wouldn't be "traditional" it it worked. It would be incorporated into modern medicine, like aspirin. It may help a little. If it helped a lot, everyone would know and we wouldn't call it "traditional."

    On the BBC TV news they have just interviewed a Microbiology Professor who is part of a group of 200 scientists who are very critical of the 'laissez faire' approach of the UK government.

    The British public does not seem to mind. They seem to be saying "keep calm and carry on." Only 24% are "very scared" or "somewhat scared." So, for once, they are even more stupid than the U.S. public.


    https://www.statista.com/stati…ear-by-country-worldwide/


    More proof that the British public wins the dumb-ass award in this contest. On March 1, 54% had done nothing to avoid the disease.


    https://www.statista.com/stati…res-worldwide-by-country/

    it makes me wonder if it is worth the risk to rely on immunity and herd immunity for this coronavirus when we just don't know.

    I think the Chinese and Japanese researchers have confirmed that most patients who recover have acquired immunity. Some Chinese researchers think it might wear off years from now. I think by that time a vaccine will drive the species into extinction. I sure hope so.


    Incidentally, the coronavirus mortality rate in China outside of Hubei province is 0.6%.


    https://www.statista.com/stati…-19-fatality-rate-region/

    That is not exactly true. With COVID-19, even without a well functioning health system, 80% survive, probably 95%. So we are not in whole population wipeout territory.

    I did not say that is possible. I said that an epidemic in nature ends when:


    1. Some number of members recover and have natural immunity.

    2. The season changes (but not with COVID-19).

    3. OR when the local population dies out.


    Obviously, #1 is the only natural outcome possible with COVID-19, since so many people survive. The same was true in most parts of the world with the 1918 Spanish flu. It never threatened to be as bad as the Black Plague, which did depopulate some districts. Although in 1918 there were a few isolated areas where people had such low immunity to influenza that the entire population was wiped out.


    Black plague in 14th century Europe: 30 to 60% of the population killed. 80% in some locations.


    1918 Spanish flu: ~2.5% (https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/12/1/05-0979_article).

    But as you have been saying, its too late now for effective quarantine measures to work.

    I have not said that. As far as I know, that is not true at all. The epidemic was out of control in Wuhan and Hubei province. It was brought under control mainly by quarantine measures, implemented with modern big data and internet techniques. That's why they were more effective than they were before this century.


    The whole city was quarantined. Doctors and equipment were rushed in from other provinces. A hospital was built in one week for critically ill patients. Less critically ill people, and people exposed to the disease were ordered into makeshift facilities such as converted stadiums. Healthy people were ordered to stay in their apartments. Food and medicine was distributed to the locked-in population. This brought the epidemic under control. Most of the makeshift facilities are now closed.


    This is documented in the W.H.O. report and elsewhere.


    The total number of deaths was 3,189. There are still 10 or 20 new cases per day, and several deaths. The new cases may rise as people go back to work, but they will be rigorously traced to the source, and people will be treated. No doubt there will be a substantial number of additional deaths before a vaccine can be distributed. On the other hand, the hospitals are not likely to be overwhelmed again. There will not be hundreds of thousands of deaths in China. Or Korea, or Japan.


    If the trend continues in Italy, the U.S. and elsewhere, we will either take similar steps, OR instead of ~3,000 deaths, we will have hundreds of thousands of deaths. Italy has already had 1,400 deaths.


    The per capita infection rate in Italy is 350 people per million. It is 56 per million in China. It could rise to ~400,000 per million in Italy, or the U.S., or any country that does not take drastic steps. In other words, it could get 1,100 times worse. All the medical science, all the doctors and hospitals in the world could not help Italy if that happens, and they sure as hell could not help the U.S., which has a much larger population. If that happens, we will be no better off than people were in 1918. The death rate will be about the same; 3.5%, with 40% of the population infected. (In Germany, experts say it may be 70% this time.)


    The point is, you will be no better off than a person was in 1918 if the hospitals are swamped. Modern medicine and medical equipment such as masks, drugs, and ventilators do no good if there are not enough to go around. When there are not enough doctors, and the doctors and nurses are sick. You will be put in a tent with hundreds of other sick and dying people. Like this:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…on,_Kansas_-_NCP_1603.jpg


    This is not some kind of dystopian fantasy, or exaggeration. This is what is happening now, in Italy, despite their best efforts. This is what the numbers point to in the U.S., inexorably increasing by 1.3 times per day. Do the arithmetic! This is the natural history of all uncontrolled epidemics in all species. This is not what might happen. It is what must happen in nature, until enough of the animals acquire immunity, or the season changes (with some illnesses, but not this one), or the whole local population is wiped out. Only humans can reduce this trend, or flatten the curve. We have been doing that since ancient times, with quarantines, travel permits during epidemics, and so on. We are not doing that now in the U.S. They were late doing it in Italy.

    Oh shit. Yikes. The new cases per day in Italy has shot up to the highest levels yet. New cases for the last 3 days:


    March 12 2,651

    March 13 2,547

    March 14 3,497


    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/


    This is dreadful news. Hospitals in Italy are already practicing triage. There are 1,518 critical cases.


    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/0…onavirus-health-care.html


    Perhaps the steps taken last Sunday have had an effect, but it has not shown up in the daily increase in cases, because of latency in symptoms after infection. I wouldn't know, but I sure hope that is the situation.


    I doubt anyone in Italy is now criticizing the P.M. for taking such extreme steps. I only hope they are sufficient. I wonder what more they can do?!?

    At the moment, it is not clear that the infection with COVID-19 confers lasting immunity.

    There has been a lot of discussion of this in Japanese mass media. They found a patient who seemed to get sick a second time. The medical establishment and the public freaked out. The other day, an expert on national TV said "we now think she still had a reservoir of viruses, which our test were not sensitive enough to detect." I think that means they sent her home too soon. She wasn't actually better.


    In China they have also observed some recovered patients who did not acquire immunity. Some Chinese doctors warn that acquired immunity is not as much a sure thing as it is with some other infectious diseases.


    A description of the Japanese patient and some comments by Chinese doctors are here:


    https://www.businessinsider.co…isk-of-reinfection-2020-2

    At the peak of the epidemic in China, they had 58,000 active cases.

    Which the U.S. will have on March 25, if present trends continue.


    I do not think the trend will continue at this exact rate, increasing 1.3 times per day. People will take action themselves, even though our government is frozen in grotesque ignorance and denial. Local governments will take action. But the total numbers are sure to increase without decisive action by Federal and state governments, and national planning and coordination, in things like tracking cases. That's the main thing the Asian governments have done.


    I hope the situation in Italy stabilizes! That would be a good sign.



    By the way, I have made no comments about the medical and biological aspects of this, because I know little about these things. I appreciate other people's contributions. I do know about epidemiology, trends and statistics. I never studied them formally at college, but I grew up in a house filled with books about them. (Filled with books about everything. Hundreds of books!)

    This is terrible and looks just as bad here in the UK - in the absence of any quarantine measures the only way of saving lives now is mass distribution of antiviral drugs......

    Antiviral drugs are a last resort for critically ill patients. So far, they have not had much of an effect. Drugs and therapy will never slow down the epidemic, because they are only used when it is too late -- when the patient already has the disease. You must prevent people from getting sick in the first place. Otherwise, the U.S. will have ~150 million sick people, with 20% critically ill (albeit over time, not all at once.) There is no possible way to prevent massive deaths in that case. There are not enough hospitals or doctors in the whole world to treat that many people. At the peak of the epidemic in China, they had 58,000 active cases. It is now 12,000, with 3,600 critically ill. The numbers are falling rapidly.


    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/


    Doctors and public health experts in China, Korea, Japan, the U.S. and the W.H.O. China survey team have repeatedly said the only way to control this epidemic is by testing, following up, and rigorously quarantining patients. Including patients with mild cases. Not only did they say this, they proved it! Look at the numbers.


    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

    Isn't this what we could expect if there are two strains with different R0;s and CFR's?

    You mean the change in the slope from Feb. 17 to March 1. Nope. That was caused by the Chinese effectively ending the epidemic in China, followed by the European outbreaks which now exceed the peak of Chinese outbreak in new cases per day. The peak in China was 5,000 new cases per day; there are now 11,000 new cases per day. (The other peak of 14,000 in China was an adjustment catching up with previous data, not an actual increase.)


    In other words, the situation was under control. The epidemic was stopped in China, Korea and Japan where it had previously been most prevalent. But the Europeans and the U.S. ignored the methods and recommendations from China, Korea and Japan, and the U.S. government refused to allow German and other test kits, so the situation went out of control.


    By March 25, 11 days week from now, there will be ~11,000 new cases per day in the U.S. if nothing is done to slow down the infection rate. The increase has been 1.3 X per day, steadily since March 2:


    DateCasesIncrease (today/yesterday)
    175
    21001.33
    31241.24
    41581.27
    52211.40
    63191.44
    74351.36
    85411.24
    97041.30
    109941.41
    1113011.31
    1216971.30


    So far, nothing has been done. Nothing has even been proposed by the Trump administration, except testing, which has been repeatedly promised but not implemented. Without testing there is no hope of controlling the epidemic. It is like flailing in the dark. In Asia, the rate was slowed down by massive testing, following up on all cases, quarantines and so on. Not a single one of these steps has been taken in the U.S. The mechanisms to allow them, such as an internet reporting system and headquarters, are not being made. Or even planned as far as I know, but all such deliberations have been declared top secret by the administration. (Whereas they are featured in the national news broadcast every day in Japan and Korea.)


    This is why Jha and other experts say, "this is an unmitigated disaster that the administration has brought upon the population." This is why our experts are projecting 400,000 to 1 million dead, whereas in Japan there will be ~12,000 dead when a vaccine becomes available, if present trends continue. (THIS WAS ~400 in Japan in 12 months -- my mistake.) We will sacrifice up to a million lives on the altar of anti-science stupidity. Not just in the administration, but everywhere in modern U.S. society, as you see from opposition to vaccinations, to national healthcare, sick leave, global warming initiatives, energy conservation, science in general, and cold fusion. To think that the U.S. was once the world leader in science and technology! It makes me weep.


    As I said, I am glad my late mother never lived to see this. All that she and her generation of scientists worked to build up, and to make this country great, has been swept aside in a torrent of ignorance. Her generation invented computers and internet. She was one of the first to use a computer! She brought me to see it when I was 6 years old. The internet is now savings hundreds of thousands of lives in Asia, but we are doing nothing to use it.


    Info on my mother, in case you are wondering. This is accurate, unlike much else in in Wikipedia:


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_D._Rothwell

    The Japanese government has recommended that everyone wear a mask in public. They are distributing masks for free in Sapporo, and they plan to supply washable cloth masks to everyone in the country.


    Instructions for making do-it-yourself masks have been widely circulated. They are better than nothing. Here is one that we tried:


    https://sonaeru.jp/goods/handiwork/groceries/g-12/


    You can Google translate it.


    Here is a more complicated Chinese do-it-yourself mask that is supposedly 90% as effective as a commercial mask. This was posted here previously:


    https://www.bkreader.com/2020/…own-protective-face-mask/


    I believe I read that the Chinese government mandates masks for everyone out in public.