Do you think it good form to critique the demo after the fact when you haven't defined what you expect before the demo is specified?
I said what my preconditions are; a legitimate customer, and/or independent experts present, and running the show. Not going to happen though.
What do you want to see in the demo...give details?
Axil,
A legitimate customer for starters, but he already said that will not happen. Only other thing that might make me think twice, were if there were independent experts present, and they had full access to everything. Better yet...that they run the show. Not going to happen either.
So no, this will not be conclusive, and best the remaining Rossi fans not get their hopes up IMO. Still looking forward to it though, just to see what he has up his sleeve this time. He is quite the character no doubt.
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- Frank Acland October 19, 2018 at 8:25 AM
Dear Andrea,
You have posted today that you will make a presentation on January 31, 2019 via internet streaming. Will this be a live event, or will it be a recording?
What can we expect to see in this event?
Kind regards,
Frank Acland
- Translate
Andrea Rossi October 19, 2018 at 10:05 AM
Frank Acland:
Thank you for asking.
It will be a live event and the public will be able to put questions.
Warm Regards,
A.R.
As the power does up it will get increasingly difficult to explain it away as measurement error.
I hope he will show the SK working at its rated 10 kW.
Thanks to you and Sam for posting Adrian. Looking forward to the event. Should be interesting. I would think especially so for those with experience in the field, who still think he has something...but only the older Ecat technology he abandoned after the Doral settlement. I suspect the suspicions now, will remain afterwards. Never know though...this could be different.
I see only a cold fusionist that said to have heard... that talk for him, nothing direct from his pen or Institute.
If you can produce a direct original test document where Geischner made cold tests, we can consider it.
hunter,
I think you are splitting hairs. He was at one point director of the MPI Physical Chemistry Department. That is good enough for me to appeal to his authority. 
No hope changing your mind, as Gerischer did his. That is fine.
Just so no one misses it, one of Jeds references relates the story of a world class Electrochemist (Gerischer), who went from skeptic in 1989, to believer in 1991. Gerischer attributed his change of view to the improved calorimetry by those doing the research. It should be noted that today, 27 years later, that is still one the main criticisms from the mainstream: "well, they must have done something wrong". Here is Bockris's introduction:
"The significance of this memorandum arises from Professor Gerischer's status. He is widely
recognized to be the leading physical electrochemist in Europe and would vie for the title on a still
wider basis. Apart from his long term involvement in electrochemistry he is well known as a
physical chemist of the highest standing and was, until 1988, the Director of the Max Planck
Institute for Physical Chemistry in Berlin.
A still further significance may be attached to Professor Gerischer's memorandum because
he has been, since March 1989, a dedicated opponent of cold fusion, taking the position (more
pronounced, even, in Germany, France, and England, perhaps, than in the United States) that the
work of Fleischmann and Pons and the announcement of March, 1989, was due to poor
measurements.
Indeed, I can witness the fact that until the Como Conference of July 1991, Professor
Gerischer maintained a negative opinion of the field which he confided to me at the beginning of
the Conference."
Thanks to Frank Acland for interviewing Parkhomov: https://e-catworld.com/2018/10…with-alexander-parkhomov/
Nothing new, or revealing that I read, but maybe it will come in handy one day.
The current course syllabus is here: http://mragheb.com/NPRE%20402%…%20condensed%20matter.pdf
Rossi's bullsh*t starts around page 23. Rossi's name has been removed and some other things have been changed but it's not much less offensive inasmuch as it is entirely fantasy. Might as well include flying pigs and unicorns as power sources. It would make as much sense
I did not see anything that changes my opinion from before. What I read 2 months ago was not offensive, nor fantasy, and this appears no different to me. The professor describes one of Rossi's early tests from the UOB days. He makes many cautious statements, and comes across as disbelieving of the results. I see no reason why this is even an issue? If this is all there is, I suggest whoever is behind the effort to tarnish his reputation, refocus their efforts on solving LENR.
We are a talk forum, not a formal science body, so that means we talk about whatever is presented. Follow every lead. So please keep up the "chatter", or whatever one chooses to call it.
Information is information, no matter how it is packaged and presented. We take it all here, and do not discriminate. There is no requirement it meet any scientific standards, or any burden of proof. The reader can ignore it or not, read it while holding their nose...that is their choice, but asking it to stop, defeats the purpose of what we are about. If it does not pass the smell test, it is deleted, or shuffled harmlessly to Clearance, or Playground.
I for one love to hear whatever it is Alan, and Russ tell us. It is a very exciting story to follow. It may in the end be another false lead like the J5 story, but we will deal with that if, or when it happens. Never know though...this may be the one.
Bruce,
2 months ago, SOT first brought this up. I involved myself in the matter, read his reference and responded with this:
"SOT,
The author, did not display Rossi's early energy catalyzer "prominently". It was one of the last of the experiments he reviewed, and seems to write it off as a HO fuel cell. If anything, he downplays it. Maybe because of the peer pressure from UI alumni, as you claim...I would not know.
Besides that, it was a good read. It is a new paper (dated 8/1/2018), but reads mostly like the majority was written years ago. Ragheb has been on the LENR for a long time, so that would not be surprising. He writes mostly about the older experiments/theories, of Patterson/SPAWAR/BEC/Widom. He does include Safire however, which happened last year, so maybe this triggered an update."
So basically it was a hyped story by whoever it was/is feeding it to SOT. Having more to do IMO with a vendetta against Rossi, than anything of substance. Understandable going after Rossi perhaps, in light of his actions at Doral, Stockholm, and abuse of JONP (sockpuppets), but that is no reason to drag this poor fellow into it.
Bruce,
So far, we have only one side of the story. SOT brought this up at the behest of a third party months ago. I assume during the interim, the professor has responded to the official complaint. Maybe SOT's source could provide that? IMO, once all parties are fairly represented, and accounted for, then I have no problem naming names, and pointing fingers.
Your judgement is valued nevertheless, and if you disagree, I am more than happy to reconsider.
SOT,
I edited out the profs name. We know who he is, and no reason to publicly shame him. What he did is not a federal offense.
SOT,
If the Univ of Illinois prof is representing Lugano/Doral/Stockholm as scientifically valid, then I can understand them asking him to stop. UI has been one of LENR's best kept secrets since Miley started in LENR. They have achievement awards for LENR students, and the are free to study the science without fear of career suicide. With all their contributions to the field, and affiliation with IH, I can see why they might take exception to anything having to do with Rossi.
As to Bass (JMP's Engineer), and Johnson (JMP's President), I wish whoever is behind this the best of luck in going after them. If left unpunished for their role in the scam, others may be tempted to try. The case was settled out of court, so I do not see how Rossi's lawyers could get in trouble.
https://drive.google.com/file/…v9zz4VW0H_buZu2OTypG/view
This is Leonid Urutskoev's slide presentation from Sochi (dated from 3/10/2018). It is in English, and very easy to read. Basically a run through of his theories, thoughts, experiments. He has been involved in LENR for a long time
DR,
Safire has been disappointing. After making that eye catching presentation, they started playing coy. They were at ICCF21, but according to BG, they were cordial, but did not engage in any meaningful exchange of ideas. Shortly after that, they attended another LENR related conference (forget where). Hope was they would open up and we would get some feedback, but nothing.
Like everything in the field, their actions could mean a number of different things, from investors getting involved, to they have nothing.
That is the way I see it Max. Synthestech checks in here occasionally; maybe they could comment. Early on, they did participate, but never really answered any questions.
There is no need to disclose "all they have." However, the parts that they decide to disclose should be communicated in a professional, serious, organized and conventional way. Not as random, jumbled messages here that vanish into the cybernetic continuum.
I do not know whether full disclosure is an option or not, or what would prevent it. Russ George says that he has worked hard and he wants to keep it secret for that reason. That would make sense if this were a commercial venture. Perhaps it is commercial. I have no idea what it is, who is paying for it, or what the goal is. HOWEVER, if this is an academic research project then the opposite goal applies. You want to reveal everything as quickly as possible, to grab priority. Priority is the only thing that counts in academic science. You may be the first to discover an effect, but if you are second reporting it, you get no credit. For example, Mizuno probably observed excess heat from Pd-D before Fleischmann and Pons did, but he never reported it. So he gets no credit for it, as he himself readily admits. This is described in his book.
If this is a commercial venture and they hope to get patents, they should shut up and say nothing, according to people who know about patents.
Jed,
Russ has made it clear he has some commercial ideas in mind. In addition, he mentioned in his last column, of possibly making a lab kit for the universities. It is his prerogative alone, to decide what he releases, how much, and in whatever style he chooses. What difference does it make to you, or the people you mention who know about patents, whether he "shuts up", or not? If Russ loses some, or all of his IP as a result, well...that is something he will have to live with. Not anyone here.
They have not kept it secret BTW. Yes, from us they have, but I can tell you there are many well qualified visitors who have seen the data first hand, with many more to come. In fact, Wyttenbach is there right now. Late next month they will be visited by a team from an agency, that has access to the best of detection equipment, specialists in another field , and the resources needed to get to the bottom of this.
In all honesty, I am baffled why this pisses you, and some others off the way it has. Is this some kind of science purist thing?
Pretty much all I was saying here, but since I am branded an “anti-LENR guy”, everyone got their panties in a bunch. Pretty typical.
IO,
You said later you were not anti-LENR, so I am am fine by that. These things do flare up on occasion, then the next day calm down. Unavoidable really, what with so many egos, and opinions on one forum. Throw in happy hour, bad hair days, and it is amazing we all get along as well as we do.
This is not a very healthy conversation, within the Rossi conversation, and gets us nowhere IMO. Best we shift all to Clearance. Hopefully there it fades away. Any objections?
Edit: No objections within the allotted 3 minutes so all the related posts are now in the Playground. Hopefully there, they fade away from memory.
Jed,
Let me ask you this: Given the choice between them discontinuing all communications about Androcles, or continuing on as before, which would you prefer? There is no 3rd option to fully disclose all they have in a scientifically correct manner, as that is simply not going to happen.
IMO, they are doing us a favor by keeping us informed, for what they feel may be a breakthrough. The way they are going about it, is obviously not to everyone's satisfaction, and outright irritates some. Nor does it satisfy any basic science requirements as proof, or provide any basis to be believed, but it is better than nothing.
. If you are not an LENR fan, what are you? An expert? A researcher? A lobbyist?
Admittedly, I am an unabashed science fan. That would include LENR, as it is a science. That said, you have kept your anti-LENR sentiments in check, until tonight. Yes, I know you are anti-Rossi, as are most of us, but something brought out your other side. That is what I responded to. And your trying to link Rossi worship, with belief in LENR, and by extension Russ and Alan, is a major step to take.
So angry. Why? Remember, you told them to "shut the ****up". You are a scientist, you demand others to act with appropriate courtesy, yet here you say that.
I'm confused as to why haven't you gone entirely public and shared your mixture composition with others. If I'm mistaken please correct me.
Thanks for all your efforts.
Promethian,
Russ developed the fuel mixture over many years of LENR research. It showed promise in the GD system. That made him curious how it would work in a dry tube furnace system. That is where Alan comes into the picture. Then things started to happen.
So in answer to your question...ask Russ.
I don’t care if they stay silent or not. They just shouldn’t be surprised if their little tweets are met with scorn by anyone apart from their fans. And LENR researchers are different from those in other fields anyway because they have fans. A very strange phenomenon to say the least.
Hmm. a little testy are we? You ARE taking this personal. How odd. All because they are releasing information, but not enough, nor a style to your liking. And BTW, those are not "tweets", they are posts. And now you have categorized those like myself as fans...as in Rossi fans. Tweets/fans, I know what you are up to! Won't work my friend. You know what IO, I think you are jealous.
Something to note from the interview for future reference, is that SRI shut down many alternative energy programs as a cost savings measure. LENR was not the only target. Tanzella also acquired more equipment then he seems to know what to do with, which at present is in his basement.
He has started a new company: "Energy Research Center, LLC" located in the SF Bay area. He offers his services as a scientific consultant in alternative energy. Something for others in the field to keep in mind, as we have some assets in the Bay area. Good for Dewey to know also, if he does not already.
In the world of big-boy science, when you are working on promising new stuff that you want to keep proprietary for whatever reason, you don’t send out little teasers to your fans that are both tantalizing and devoid of content. You shut-the-**** up
Call it teasing if you will, but I think they are simply very excited about what they are seeing, and are having a hard time keeping it all to themselves. You make it sound personal, but it isn't. They have spent a large part of their lives pursuing LENR, and now they think they have found it. It is like spending years prospecting in the desert for gold, and then hitting the mother lode. Yet, you want them to "shut the ****up"?
And what if they go silent as you want, and then this turns out to be the big breakthrough? We would have missed out on something historical. If their style irritates, you can skip over their posts, but I think many of us want to be kept in the loop...just in case.
I (and Bob) are saying that no-one reading the stuff here can know whether you have something significant. Taking your judgement of this is what some may want to do, but it is just that. No-one sensible would view one person's unsupported claims as being good evidence, no matter how illustrious that person is.
THH,
I think this got off to a bad start when we (me included) got the impression Androcles would be handled as an OS project. That notion came about I believe, when Alan intermingled talk about his OS LFH philosophy, during the same period Russ came along. Long story short, we are now all on the same page in knowing it is now, and has always been developed with an eye towards commercialization if successful. By that measure, they are actually producing quite a bit of info. Since we came to that understanding, I think some of the frustration has died down.
And if what they have been passing along, either cryptically or straight forward, has not been enough for you, I suggest you read my posts more carefully. There is some good info in them also. If that is not enough, well, there is no satisfying.
BTW, as far as I can see, neither has asked you, or anyone, to believe they have something, based on the limited information, and data provided so far. Same goes for all the visitors past, and those to come, who see, or have seen much more than we here. They are asking however, to be treated with a little more respect as to their abilities, motivations, and not be asked elementary science questions, which they have been asked.
Maybe it would be worthwhile setting up a direct collaboration with W, since you had a good chat at the meeting?
DR,
He traveled to Essex last month, and spent 2 days there.
Bob,
While the jury is still out, I would have to agree that if the verdict comes back next month positive, then Piantelli deserves the credit. That is me and you though, but they are the ones doing the work, so they decide. If Rossi get's their thumbs up, well then, he gets a little redemption. Kind of pisses me off after Doral, and Stockholm, but that is the way it is.
And while it is commendable how Magic is conducting his OS replication project, I can assure you Russ and Alan are reaching out just as vigorously to their university colleagues, LF members, and now an agency joining in with their considerable resources to help figure this out. You just do not see all this going on, so understandable you, and others think they are cloistered in isolation working as a 3 man team.
They are sitting on a mountain of data, which needs a multi discipline approach to analyze, and make sense of. That help is on the way.
. I really think the problem that stops the LENR community from moving forward is that different parties are stuck on THEIR pet theories instead of observing what's directly observable from experiments conducted by people who had DIFFERENT theories.
Tanzella said about the same thing Francis Tanzella (SRI retired) Podcast on CFN
Director,
Someone at Sochi gave a presentation in Russian, on the history of SR sightings in LENR. I forgot where it was, but if you find it, and can get someone to interpret, I think it would be very interesting. More importantly, it may help you, and others, start putting the pieces together.
Simply put, unless someone has direct knowledge of eCats that has not been publicly revealed, it is clear that they do not work and Rossi is and out and out fraud.
If people have direct knowledge / data that the eCats work (not Rossi says and the hyperbole we here from AA) then why do they not discuss it? Giving Rossi the occasional "thumbs up" but refusing to discuss why, does nothing but tarnish their own reputation.
Bob,
Just playing devils advocate here, but if we were looking through the prism they are, we might see things differently. And what they are seeing is looking like an LENR breakthrough. After they get the heavy equipment, and specialists in there next month, we should know more. In the meantime they are fairly certain this is something unique, so it is understandable he may think it a good time to brave the backlash, and give Rossi a thumbs up. They feel Russ's fuel blend, and no doubt Alan's dogbone style furnace tube set-up, were inspired by him, so why not? Again, just playing the advocate here.
You are right, in that this mouse thing has never been explained. It has not even been mentioned since before Doral, so I do not understand why Russ decided to rekindle that mystery now.
