Bruce__H yup I agree it’s an interesting application in this case. I’m curious if we should apply this more generally. with out this in effect we are looking at data with out properly considering the error bars.
But it’s interesting once we have it to compare with data and see what is statistically significant too. Maybe it can throw up some interesting information.
It’s good you brought this up.
Bruce__H intersting analysis especially the use of the of Poisson distribution Thanks for that.
I will have to get my mind around the statistics to visualize properly what you are getting at it but i can see you raise a good point and it’s interesting.
If what you say is correct it would be interesting to see an accumulated plot for many more than just 17 frames. I suppose the over all profile won’t change much. But any remaining artifacts would likely be removed. It might then be easier to interpret the data.
Edit: now I’m curious what the part beyond 425 nm shows. This would be the part beyond the apparent sharp cut off. If that part is attenuated those small bumps may actually correspond to quite large peaks.
Ahh you are right my mistake. My apologies for that. It’s interesting what you are saying.
I had thought that may be the long wave length was cut off due to to maybe looking through a very narrow aperture. Perhaps due to a hole or micro hole structure in a filter or perhaps due to the optic fiber itself. These kind of holes can lead Airy disc generation and to dispersion especially at longer wavelengths. Longer wave lengths disperse much more so become less intense and cut off more quickly. The hole would be sized to optimally pass the UV and Blue wave lengths.
But it’s a guess I suppose that might explain that characteristic.
Interesting we do get a small tail of features beyond that cut off. I suppose those would have to be pretty intense peaks to apear there as those low broad shapes if what I said is correct.
I agree it’s not the kind of spectrum to definitively determine the BB profile. That’s for sure. But it is interesting to try and interpret what we do see. Especially if it can be explained or not. And if so how.
It’s quite correct that broad peaks and specta features like you showed in the example can come from emission of bound atoms such as in crystals and molecules. Or we can get them from plasmon peaks associated with nano particles of particular materials. But these are at fixed frequencies and and static. What we saw was very dynamic and changing... I have no explanation for that apart from
A very dynamic environment with density fluctuations.... what ever that means. But I don’t think that can be explained with molecular or plasmon emissions... maybe I’m wrong there who knows.
LDM interesting about the low frequency cut off as being a way to measure the temperature..
it’s a pity those frequencies seem cut off in the data... I suppose this is either deliberately or due to the way it is benign measured strongly attenuating that part of the spectrum....
It’s interesting that we get the small feature just after the apparent strong cut off at around 450nm... this makes me wonder if the cut off due to attention.
I wonder though out of curiosity is there a similar approach applicable at the high frequency cut off? If I understand correctly where as the low frequency end is expected to be dominated by thermal cutoff effects the high frequency part of the spectrum is due more to Bremstrahlung emission effects. I suppose that part is not thermal though or optically thick at those frequency (unless there are hotter denser cores) but I suppose the high energy part gives an indication of the energy if the plasma even if none thermal. And if we assume the plasma is thermalised (even if not optically thick) then perhaps we can correlate it to the plasma temperature somehow. But I must admit with out seeing the expected profile of a thermal cut off it’s difficult to be suret that the plasma is thermalised for sure. Although we should perhaps expect that at some long frequency at least.
Just a thought
Thanks Paradigmnoia. That’s interesting info. Good to learn something new.
Could it also stand high temperatures near the core? Andrea Rossi confirmed on JONP to me that it it was through a “window” though for thermal and saturation reasons. But I can see the fiber could be lined up with that window. I wonder if the window was a physical one or just s hole and how big it would have to be. Assuming it was taken at 10 cm from the device it would still be equivalent power of 20W per sq cm. Sun light at the earths surface for comparison is about 0.1 W per sq cm I think.
Paradigmnoia thanks a lot for that I’m not really that expert on spectrometer usage. This is interesting information for me.
Do these kind of optical fibers also pass UV light?
On The other hand would such an arrangement allow sufficient attenuation of the intense UV light?
Did they say they use this arrangement somewhere?
I wonder what the fiber crossection is etc. I suppose your suggestion is that the diffraction gratings are then being used to diffuse the signal as well as diffracting the observed spectrum?
In the other hand the number of counts per 5s frame did not seem that high to me. So I wonder if the emission was also attenuated else where by something.
Sorry a lot of questions but genuinely curious
I like the pin hole camera idea it might explain the image ( like the spectrometer a camera could not be inside the heat exchanger either)
But the intensity would still be quite large at the optimum aperture of few hundred um.
On the other hand a smaller aperture of a few um would produce diffraction and a blurring image perhaps with chromatic effects. Maybe a bit like that blurry image seen,
The spectrometer (Or fiber arrangement) would then be focused on the ceneter of Airy disk.
On the other hand a pin hole would be thd natural place to put the fiber if it is narrow enough
Ok a lot of guess work there but it might fit what we see
Bruce__H yup I agree with your point about quantifing the irradiance.
Edit:
Especially the last point about the response
Regarding aperture I think he indicated that it was 1cm2 and centered on the 3mm by 1cm core.
Regarding placement. I asked him if for thermal and saturation reasons it is not in side the heat exchanger itself but rather outside but looking through a small window. He confirmed this. I think it reasonable to assume that window is 1cm^2
He also confirmed the spectrometer is inside the box and more distant from it. The box I think is about 45 cm wide and deep. So we can estimate the distance of the sensor from the core to be between 10cm and 20cm I think. At this distance we can treat it like a radial radiation from a point like source I think
If we ignore any other filters. This I think indicates between 5 and 20 W is passing into the spectrometer depending on its exact distance. I wonder if this amount of flux is reasonable or not?
Hmm I suppose it could also be looking through a pinhole window and still get the spectrum from 1cm^2 if suitably placed... so I’m not sure if that above estimate helps.... it might also serve as a pinhole camera of the contents though which would be cool.
I suppose the refresh of the video gives an indicator of the counts over a particular time frame.
I’m not sure how we could estimate the response though. Do you have any idea what is typical?
Bruce__H interesting exchange their with LDM thanks to both of you for that.
A optically thick plasma would have more a flat profile I think but as it becomes more thick it start to resemble a BB at the sides but stil with a flat top ultimately when it is optical opaque it peaks somewhere between those lines. As in the solar plasma. A plasma is not solid so is not constant in temperature through out it’s observed dearth especially in the less optically thick region so it will have a differing profile with variations of time due to this and any density fluctuations in the surrounding slightly thinner plasma
So I agree fully with LDM and his conclusions here. I would not use Weins law on that broad spectrum profile either. Unless there are occasions when it clearly only shows the spectrum from dense core. And even then I’m not sure yet it is proved to us to be optically opaque there.
What we can determine though, if that part of the spectrum is thermal in origin is that the temperature must correspond to a wavelength between the edges of that broad spectrum... and perhaps something from the width. The over all intensity and itradiance though would need a more complex analysis. It’s interesting LDM point about it still having a similar derivation though.... if we know the temperature....
Once more the peak at 336.9nm is absolute in agreement with Ag I 2P0 lowest state. This only tells that AR now knows what LERN drives...
An interesting snippet a bit back there in the thread. Curious about this. But I guess it will become clear in time.
It’s also curious what’s exciting the atoms to produce those lines. Normally it requires a a higher energy source to excit or remove the inner electrons so that the emission lines can be generated.
They are apparently persistent so I wonder what causes that.... X Rays? high energy electron or ion bombardment?
Would the supplied power be sufficient to drive the process that generates those those peaks I wonder and if so if it can account for the intensity?
Hi Paradigmnoia, whilst I agree there is a lot to be understood in that spectrum. I think the peak you chose in that plot for the comparison is at a wave length some way bellow the one used for his calculation which was at 357 nm I think? If I’m correct that peak corresponds to the much smaller broader feature to the right.
It’s much more likely the peaks you noted are from emmision lines from the surface of the plasma or surrounding gas in the line of sight I think . Clearly it’s not from an optically thick region. I’m curious what they tell us though.
I guess we also need to take in to account the absorption of the containing material.
I’m very curious what you and Can come up with with that spectrum. There is a lot of structure there and it seems pretty dynamic.
Are there any indicators of specific spectra lines such as for Helium 3 or 4, Lithium etc?.
What could explain the two broader features that seem to Apear? Would this be two separate regions experiencing different scattering? Or is there absorption from the casing playing a role?
Is it comparable to spectra from other plasma lamp assemblies etc?
Wyttenbach just to clarify. It’s not my paper... I’m not nearly so smart as to be able to do that 😉. This Paper is from RIKEN...
But I did post the link from the phs.org internet article here.
I wish I could study this stuff in detail though it’s really interesting and somehow really elegant. Your work is facinating.
This following article is high energy physics related but I thought you and others night find it interesting.
This is not strictly connected but interesting article I think:
https://www.quantamagazine.org…correcting-code-20190103/
Curious what you make of it
I wonder what we will find at Ultima Thule if LENR is present. Would be cool if some predictions played out.
Regarding a dusty atmosphere as you describe?
1. Would this be micro meter particles suspended in a haze density and limited in extent related to their respective nearfield radiation?
2. Would it exhibit particulate EM emmission bands. UV, IR, RF.
3. Would we see heavy elements. That are hard to explain at these distances. A dusting of Iron or Nickel say on the surface or suspended in the atmosphere?
Well In a few days we may find out.
I suppose most likely it’s just a snowball. But if it turns out to be more in the year 2019 of all years. It will be somehow poetic.
Happy Christmas and New Year to all..
JohnO. If I recall correctly there were 3QX in the device used at Stockholm.
If the oscillations are driven by the reactor behavior rather than the supply. Could slight mismatch in oscillating frequency between the 3 devices. Result in the observed beat pattern?
If designed that way could an applied power supply wave form help drive and sustaine the resonance of the oscillations in a more controlled way than if just one is used?
Are other Plasma (or Acoustic) waves implicated such as Alfvén waves. This could lead to density fluctuations at certain points that perhaps could enhance interactions in this locations.
can thanks well I guess the behavior looks typical. Was just my eyes after all. Thanks for clarifying it though.
No small 23s glitches in the current either.
Hi Bruce__H I think it is also most likely an artifact or visual impression biased by the current graph.
If it looks similar outside the range or during the calibration I think there is not to much point going further. But if it is only visible at these times then could be worth considering.
It’s Interesting that there are mathematical tools to look for these kinds of correlations though.
can can I make a strange request?
Could you make a similar scale plot of the active run when there is no strange current effect.
Also one if the same scale during the calibration run?
I have a couple of reasons for asking the first normal the second a bit strange.
The first is it might be interesting to see if we see similar 23s in some smaller structure may be bumps in the plots elsewhere that might point to a sampling effect.
The second is... I was looking at the radiation curve above . But to my inexpert eyes there was a small what could be regular oscillation the broader variations. That could match that 23s frequency. I think maybe Each time we may have a little oscillation peak we have a spike down in current but it doesn’t look always true though. Now I appreciate it is noisy and eyes can play optical tricks when comparisons with under lying patterns are there. I guess it most likely that. But I thought it was curious.
Could the oscillations if really there be an artifact of the current? Or is there a sample rate effect impacting both sets of data? Or is this different detector some how being similarly effected?
It could be interesting to also see a zoom of the full data set over the time frame of just a few current spikes. It’s interesting that each spike does oud not just one value. Although not completely regular or identical they do seem to have something regular about them.
Another question do we know whether the various sensors are sending digital data using connectors close to the device or sending analog data that is digitized in a separate more distant processor? I suppose the current is measured at input though...
Hi can thanks a lot for these plots. I’m still not sure what to make of them. There is a lot going in there.
I’m curious about the radiation behavior. The significant and persistent drop in value after the device is hot in the active run. And recall you have recently been doing quite a lot investigation background radiation etc.
Do you have any ideas what could cause the change in the graph here? Are there outside causes of indirect causes from the experiment that could cause the observed change
I’m also curious if any one Has ideas about what is happening with the current values.
There are apparently frayed nerves my own included.... and I’m Just a bystander in this incredible story.
My own impression of the time of testing was that every one was supportive in all sides. And did their upmost best at what they do. It was one of the best times if LENR collaboration I witnessed. It was good work. Even If still one in progress maybe.
We are in a very critical chapter in the realization of LENR. On all fronts. The next few months and the Cold fusion anniversary next year are a unique opportunity for everyone in the field. It’s time.
I can only ask you to not let difference or people who like to exploit differences in opinion break that. Difference in opinion are good and a strong resource when mutually respected.
I hope that didn’t sound shallow minded on my side. I have only huge respect for all parties in this story.
I’m very curious now about Lion 4.
