StephenC Member
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Posts by StephenC

    Thanks @JohnyFive for the replies.

    It could be that the relative background could be interesting even if it is a bit contaminated. Actually maybe even more relevant in some ways.

    But I can also understand if you may also be concerned about using that if it relates to other experiments you are running that you prefer to keep close at this time.

    Could be interesting to do your self if you haven’t already . Just in case it gives some clues.

    It’s Interesting that you used LiOD... I wish I had more time to keep up with things. I miss some details like this sometimes even though it’s clearly stated. My Apologies for that.

    Lithium is interesting if it produces two 3.4 MeV alpha. Some times the broad spectrum aspect of these kinds of plots seem to me to look like they correspond to a Q value not far off this. But how that would correspond to the half-life behavior you see on the paper when you remove it.... I have no idea.

    Given your thoughts about gamma... It does seem it could imply beta or alpha are generated in and from the paper. It would be strange for Be8 to continue to be captured or generated there in the paper after the paper is removed though... I suppose activation of carbon etc by bomardment would have similar constraints...

    It’s a good experiment for its simplicity and the questions it raises..

    I’m enjoying following when I can. Good luck with It.

    Hi @JohnyFive, it very interesting looking at your alternative approach. Especially given its apparent simplicity.

    would you be able to make couple of calibration checks with your spectrometer?

    There could potentially be some interesting structure in that spectrum.

    I suppose the peaks towards the right side of the curve are a K40 peak? It’s interesting the multi peak structure to it though. And some other hints of structure further into the broader spectrum.

    Does anyone know if this structure at that end looks normal?

    1) It would be interesting to see the spectrum calibrated with a K40 source or something.... I wonder if sea salt or bananas would be sufficient;) (a second kind of radiation source might be good too)

    2) would it be possible to have a background spectrum from inside you lab as well?

    2a) It could be interestingly to have one with out any apparatus and another with dummy not active euipment with the same fuel ingredients if possible.

    3) If 2 and 2a are possible could you make a difference plot between the active run data and these? And maybe post the data as a table? There are some smart people like Can here who can make really interesting analysis of that kind of data.

    The difference plots could be intersting if peaks are seen but even an elevated over all broad spectrum can be interesting... even if in fact it follows the profile of background radiation but at higher level.

    4) A typical background spectrum also has a broad component and some peaks due to Radon fleas and K40. (I suspect Alan mentioned it because of this). So it could be interesting to check against the background:

    4a) if new peaks are seen of course this is fundamentally interesting

    4b) even if Some typical background peaks are elevated relative to the normal background it may give some insights... (what would cause that concentration)

    4c) if the broad part of the spectrum is relatively elevated it might indicate something possibly a Bremsstrahlung like phenomenon... we may even be able to see the Q value... which may point to a source and (possibley indicate both the energy generated and liberated in the source and the energy range of the stimulating radiation it generates)

    4d) if the whole background spectrum is amplified then that is most curious of all what on earth could amplify a whole spectrum?

    Regarding your possible future experiments with Hydrogen... maybe if it doesn’t work it could be interesting to add a twist by adding a bit of lithium. Although I think it may require an element of high keV stimulation. (Perhaps some deuteron would still be needed)

    Good luck with your future testing

    @Director I find my self in full agreement with almost everything you say especially concerning the physics. I’ve been trying to think things through independently and logically from both first principles about energy and spin and how it is represented and top down with data from plasmonics and basically in both ways find myself getting to the same concepts in the end. It fits beautifully.

    Very curious now about you and who you are now but it’s a healthy curiosity... I don’t expect you to have to reveal more.

    I think you may well be right about all this. I do think you should meet Bob Greenyer some day though.

    Regarding the technology. If LENR works on this basis once it’s understood it’s natural affinity to the cold plasma generation under EM stimulation and plasmonics and spintronics of micro and nanoscale quarter and half wave resonators and their application individually and collectively in plates will undoubtedly lead to huge advances in my opinion. Currently that technology is already developing very quickly with even RF IR and optical laser stimulation.

    I recently heard from someone that I massively respect a day or so ago that to use helium3 to take us to the stars we would need to mine it from the atmosphere of Jupiter. And the technology to do that maybe 200 years away. I wonder if we can make it like this if that brings these possibilities closer.

    barty hmm I'm not sure. I used to think along those lines that maybe some kind of localized fusion of light elements could be occurring under the right kinetic conditions. It would need to be low energy stimulus so as not to ionize the initial atom during the initial proton encounter if it's electron needs to be later ejected when the nucleus de excites. And I suppose the encounter would need to slow and close to the nucleus in order to allow enough time for the proton interaction to tunnel at these relatively low energies. There is a lot that needs to be just right for that occur even with light nuclei. I suppose this is already not traditional hot fusion in a fully ionized environment.

    But now we are apparently seeing all this evidence of transmutations of heavier elements than lithium I think something more must be occurring. Perhaps if those transmutations were from single proton adsorbtion only one could explain them by masking in some way as has been considered here very well by better people than me... this already would not be traditional fusion. If heavier nuclei pairs are merging as might have been seen then really it needs something else than normal fusion to explain it.

    I'm not sure if "new unknown physics" that breaks the standard model etc is required but I do think perhaps "new recent physics" breakthroughs and understanding as outlined by many here are indeed important. And the right physical conditions to exploit those effects are needed.

    Is hydrogen (protons, or deuterons) always required in some way even to enable heavy nuclei merger? Is proton fusion in light elements necessary to explain the energy balance for heavier products than iron and can the kinds of more exotic hydrogen particles or "electron clusters" postulated here and elsewhere help mediate heavier nuclei mergers.

    But I suppose it can't be simple fusion in the normal sense I think.

    I do wonder if the low kinetic energy proton fusion and associated tunned electron emissions mechanism in this paper is part of the process of the machine that produces the conditions (perhaps by generating the necessary exotic hydrogen particles or electron clusters, or an X-ray/UV environment as a side effect etc) for the more unusual behaviors such as heavier nuclei mergers to appear.

    axil interestingly leptons are fermions. I wonder if this would constrain things? especially if nano cavities are concerned and there are a limited number of states the leptons can end up in. I'm not sure what conditions that might lead to. Would there be some kind of pressure built up due to reduced states? Or would 'it necessarily require any produced leptons to be conducted away or radiated? If the cavity it effectively optically black would it even be possible to change state or radiate? Or would it flip to another form of decay. Or would Bobs ideas about charge clusters come into play? or would some some other interaction become important?

    I wonder if your ideas about Bose Einstein condensates of Bosons play a role some how.

    It's interesting they say an electron is emitted I assume this is some kind of inner shell electron emission from coupling with dexcitarion if the nuclei. Is the fact they would be a cooper pair in Helium playing a role?

    Would it require the He3 to capture electrons into its inner orbitals in time scales less than de-excitation of the He3? Or is the electrons single electron from the original deuterium that does not get ejected during the encounter with the proton due to the relatively low energy (260 keV) of the proton.

    THHuxleynew . I don't think its not being considered it's just that we don't have the information. What evidence there is or not was discussed a lot a while ago.

    There are many big gaps in the so far published Wong disposition. And having read more recent more complete dispositions of others I can see how easy it is to miss represent or miss understand what is actually known and discussed when only reading the earlier released partial dispositions.

    Andrea Rossi's more complete disposition in Witness statement does fill in some gaps but does not explain everything about the exchanger.

    As far as the equipment itself is concerned AR does mention having some kind of evidence (receipts or something) for the purchase of the pipes, fans and that his accountant should have them and if I recall he said he could request them for IH lawyers if they wanted. If that data exists and fits the time frame then it would be difficult to discount them. We never saw the missing middle photo of inside the Customer plant. But it existed and is discussed in the dispositions... so in general there is a lot we can only guess at as far as the equipment is concerned.

    Regarding the thermal engineering I guess many curious minds have read your thread here but don't really have anything to add. You have considered a model which I think you considered carefully given what we know but it also based on some guess work or estimates of the engineering used based on supplied data to some extent.

    I'm not a thermal engineer so could not discuss expertly how to model such a system unfortunately but I do sometimes work with thermal engineers and I know it is sometimes very complex and hard to model correctly.

    That said a simpler high level model can give us insights so I appreciate the effort. I just suppose we need to know more about the design itself to better understand it.

    It does seem to me he is using the fans more like an industrial blower than a more general fan use though Especially if E48 suggested ducted design fits.

    There are those on ECW like my self who think it was most likely there. There are also those who think not. But all agree we personally have not seen enough data to prove it one way or another. And all agree we do not personally know enough about the engineering actually used in the heat exchanger to prove if it could have worked as specified or not. I suspect that the IH lawyers did see enough though.

    Hi Bruce__H. I'm Stephen over on ECW. I just wanted to clarify one point above. I don't think E48 was suggesting vertical pipe was returning water flow. I did suggest it at one point though during the discussion and it was eventually clarified by the more careful investigation and discussion in subsequent post by your self and E48. So probably I was responsible in some way for that confusion.

    I think E48 was on the other hand suggesting it was a vent pipe and the hight of it implied the water was under some pressure. It's a good idea and point I think.

    There were also some different arrangements of pipe work in this area in different photos which suggests it may have some other use such as for drainage of the system.

    I couldn't personally say if it is under pressure or not but there have been some posts saying it's "obvious" the external and internal water tanks in the Doral facility were open to the elements.

    I would really like to see those pictures. All the ones I have seen look closed to me. Perhaps someone could kindly post those obvious pictures.

    Personally I'm curious about the effect of syphoning and suction at the out let of the pump.

    Has this been tested in Alan's set up?

    Would the pump limit this effect?

    If so Would it require a different water path than the additional pumped flow through the pumps?

    I must admit the various topics including this one are moving so fast I can't keep up with them and do my normal work. I think this a good sign though as what ever comes up in the end all these and debates about the whole field of LENR both experiment and theory are being thourghly worked on and considered by a lot of people now.


    I don't want to get too far off topic from this very interesting thread of Alan Fletcher on the pumps.

    But your points are also interesting and it's an interesting point you raise here too. It would be good to know what is in those boxes. I wonder if those boxes are containing control electronics or the known external batteries? Also if the boxes also shielding their contents from external RF? If so I suppose that shielding could also be made with a see through mesh though?

    Alan Fletcher. It's really great to see you take the initiative with this test. Thanks and good luck with it.


    Well a battery powered halogen torch like a maglite comes to mind.

    However a typical AAA battery has a capacity of between 0.3 and 1.3 Ah (or between 0.8 and 1.8 Wh) depending on the chemistry used in the battery so we would need something like 10 or 20 of them to power a 20W halogen bulb for 1 hour I think.

    I suppose it would be a bit of a squeeze in there for so many. I suppose the maximum capacity could be 2.

    Unless they are rechargeable but then i think it would require the supply voltage and current to be sufficiently high to recharge them about 10 and 20 times an hour. So the supply power would still be relevant and even so I'm not sure if such battery could be charged and discharged in say 6 minutes?

    Its interesting to consider but I think it is very unlikely that it is possible for an internal battery to account for the thermal power seen however.

    If viable though it maybe important to check the parameters of the demonstration test eliminate this possibility of internal batteries or external charging of any possible internal batteries accounting for the total thermal output

    Could be cool design though if the E-Cat QX is somehow able to recharge two batteries and those are sufficient once charged to initiate the process.

    @David Fojt . That is some how a beautiful picture! . What an amazing structure.

    At 20 nm I think it is much finer detail and structure than the nano carpets I was considering which have threads about 200 nm diameter and are arranged quite orderly as an array of nano wires. In fact the production method is a known way to make nano wires...

    I think your structure is more organic looking and some how more beautiful and also structurally more intriguing as a consequence. It's structure scale 20 nm is fascinating. I understand the 200 nm nano wires in the nano carpets have a grooved appearance so I wonder if this fine structure on their surface resembles yours or alternatively if they can be made to have your structure on the surface?

    I'm not a MH thermal engineer but if I understand right I think at scales as small as 20nm if thermally isolated the local effects of thermodynamics and kinetics of sorption can become more much pronounced than for larger structures I wonder if this can some how enhance the H+ production at the surface? Of if that its production is independent of thermal aspects of sorption considerations.

    If ionization is playing a part in the H+ (Or excited H) production wouldn't this necessarily mean some metal ions are also likely emitted? If so could this play a role in the kinds of Hydrogen Clusters production suggested by Xiang's publication in the above post? If so could those structures generate the kinds of phenomena suggested by Axil... Especially if the plasma is dense and subsequently becomes thermalised and reaches the kinds of high temperatures Axil has been mentioning above.

    axil  @David Fojt i find your current line of discussion quite intriguing. I'm very curious where it leads. I'm not sure if you are aware of it but I recently Found this very interesting and extremely rich in information publication on "charged induced enhancement of hydrogen adsorption for hydrogen storage materials" by someone called Xiang Sun.…article=1014&context=etds

    It contains over 190 pages of really good clear data and information including very good background and clear development of his ideas and results.

    I was very impressed by this publication and couldn't help thinking a lot of his observations could be applicable to LENR...

    I was initially chasing the thermodynamics and kinetics of sorbtion as a route the the thermal aspects of LENR especially for very small particles less than a um..

    But If I understood right from this particular study the very hot part comes from thermalisation of the initial "cool" Hydrogen plasma in the glow discharge at atmospheric pressure rather than in the electrodes themselves. This heating of the plasma to very high temperatures apparently happens very rapidly. Interestingly I understand he could control the temperature rise to sustainable manageable values with out burn out by applying the microwaves... I need to look deeper I think to better understand this.

    Of particular interest for your interesting discussion I think are the sections Hydrogen clusters... normally these are very low temperature phenomena when only hydrogen is involved... But when they include a metal ion they can occur at high temperatures in excess of 3000 K if I understood right... infact if I understood right they could be very applicable to the metal Plasmas I think Axil has been discussing elsewhere. Also Xiangs discussion on enhanced Hydrogen adsorption that takes advantage of these phenomena looks quite interesting I think.

    The Metal Hydrides experiments he performed do seem quite similar in nature to those performed for LENR. Especially those where glow discharge is observed. I'm quite curious if he observed LENR effects in his experiments without realizing it or even looking for it.

    Would applied changing magnetic field cause charge effects to occur in Nickel particles I wonder and if so could they impact hydrogen sorption?

    Incidentally on a different but possibly related topic have Nickel nanocarpets been considered and tested in LENR devices?…/b909899b/b909899b-f1.gif…elanding/2009/cp/b909899b

    They have been studied for their super hydrophobic properties which is interesting in some ways... But more relevantly I could not find any thing on their use for hydrogen storage etc.

    I'm curious about them for a number of reasons:

    1. each fiber has very narrow diameter in the nano meter/ sub micrometer range, they are individually rough, they are densely packed but aligned and separated.

    If LENR stimulates activity on adjacent sites due to radiation or ion emission or something from the surface it seems to me this geometry and arrangement is optimum for that.

    2. since the are connected to a common surface perhaps that could be used for electrical connection to allow the carpet to be used as a cathode or anode for glow discharge, or to allow electrical or thermal energy harvesting from the LENR, or to allow some kind of thermal control through thermal conduction. Or even allow charge enhanced hydrogen sorbtion as discussed above.

    3. Being Nickel they have magnetic properties that may be useful for stimulation etc but could also be exploited to move and align the fibers to some useful effect... maybe.

    Well just thought I'd mention this incase it's useful for LENR.

    I wonder if they can adsorbe hydrogen or other gases effectively and or if the retain their carpet structure if coated in a mono layer of carbon.... or lithium....

    Axil regarding the nano threads... Have you considered nano carpets?

    I'm not sure if the individual threads are narrow enough they are about 200nm diameter I think but the arrangement seems intersting to me...

    It seems to me the fact these nano threads could have a common back plate it might be possible to use this for direct control of the process on the threads as well maybe bring advantages for glowdischarge formation due to the multiple threads acting as spikes if used as a cathode or anode as well as the more obvious electrical/thermal conduction.

    These nano carpets are quite easily produced from electroplating using an alumina template and then devolving the template to leave the nano threads and carpet.

    BobHiggins thanks those are good points. I had a feeling I might have been bringing up ideas that have already been considered. I think if individual isolated simple particles are implicated as I suggested they would need to be quite small maybe fractions of a micrometer if my calculations were correct.

    In the case of larger objects such as large particles, wires or foils then I suppose they would need to have complex surfaces structures. These surface structures I suppose could serve several purposes. 1. To potentially limit or somehow control heat conduction or phonon transmission. 2. To increase the surface area compared to the volume. 3. To maybe have in some cases particular relatively thermally isolated structures of characteristics size to produce LENR effects with in a time scale before the heat or stimulation is wider distributed by conduction. But as you say allowing the LENR energy to be radiated with out destroying the source would be desirable as well. Maybe this is a difficult balance. To me I think Ed Storms NAE could well be this kind of structuring. But then I can understand there are also plenty of other possibilities to explain his NAE such as nano cracks etc. I agree there is increasingly good experimental evidence for these localized events on larger particles foils and wires.

    I'm not sure if Its relevant here but ive been thinking about an interesting thought experiment:

    The three bears of LENR particle heating

    if we assume LENR occurs in a particle as a single LENR event.

    1. If all the energy generated is converted to heat in that same particle how hot would it get? presumably this would be constrained by the specific heat and the mass of the particle. Too small it would maybe melt or vaporize? Too large it would maybe not heat enough compared to the stimulation required. In the middle the heat may be just enough.

    2. If all the energy is used for collective ionization of all adsorbed Hydrogen on the surface perhaps through phonon stimulation, UV or soft X-ray stimulation or something else. What would be the limiting size of the surface in order to ionize all the hydrogen. Would a particle with too large a surface have insufficient energy to ionize the adsorbed Hydrogen but would the energy be sufficient to ionize hydrogen on a smaller particle surface?

    With out getting into the mechanism behind LENR or even the heat source I suppose 1 and 2 could also be relevant to other sources of stimulation or radiation constraints.


    Regarding fuel packing I submitted the following post on ECW in a reply to Bob Greenyer a few weeks ago. I'm certainly no expert but iI seems to make sense to me if I thought it through correctly:

    "I must admit I'm having trouble keeping up with everything at the moment. Things are moving so fast on so many fronts. That's a very good sign though I think.

    I'm wondering if the fuel catalyst mixture is always tightly packed in the Nickel particle based LENR experiments such as the recent ones by Bob Higgins?

    Could it be beneficial for the mixture to be much more loosely packed?

    If the heat is initially being radiated from the Nickel particles as blackbody/grey body radiation in these set ups then perhaps the heat observed externally is only the radiated heat from the overall external surface. Perhaps in closely packed fuel it is difficult to see any Heat from particles caused by LENR as adjacent particles are also radiating and absorb heat from each other. Especially if there is additional heat coming from external sources and stimulation.

    With loosely packed fuel perhaps more of the LENR stimulated heat would be radiated out of the system.

    This could be particularly relevant maybe if the optimum stimulating temperature is lower than the temperature generated by LENR it self. And perhaps as a consequence if radiant thermal stimulation of adjacent particles is better served if they are slightly separated.

    I find the configuration of the ECat interesting in this regard as the flat thin radiating surfaces seem to be designed to optimize the external surface of the Nickel powder layer to the thermal conducting layers and then ultimately to the surrounding medium. Which makes sense if what I speculated above is true. Also perhaps the physical size of the ECat reactor is defined by the size requirements of the radiating surface.

    Just for clarification I should say the overall external radiating surface is different than the sum of surface area of the Nickel powder particles which it seems should perhaps be optimized to adsorbe as much hydrogen as possible. Possibly at as high a rate as possible. I suppose that could be important if the heat is being generated from either some kind of exothermic sorption process of the Hydrogen or from the LENR processing of the Hydrogen itself.

    Even if there are additional sources of heat due to heating of lead shielding etc by x-rays or particles from LENR+ or Li7 + H to 2 alpha interactions perhaps the process above is part of the story.

    (Note I suppose that other devices similar to QuarkX could be using a slightly different principle for the heat source may be not directly from the Nickel)"

    Just a thought... But I thought as its relevant I might as well put it out there.

    I'm very impressed by your testing approach by the way... It's robust and thorough and scientific. If something shows up either way it's good data. All the best with your future tests.

    Edit: if the thermal energy is first generated in individual particles either directly as a consequence of LENR or indirectly through the thermodynamics and kinetics of sorbtion/ionization or other stimulating mechanism. Perhaps the size and surface area of the particles are relevant and constrained in some regards.

    axil if I'm correct the Rossi Gullstrom paper mentions the radiating surface 1cm2.

    I understand the quark has gone through some evolutions but I think the latest dimensions I heard of were 0.6 cm diameter by 2cm length. This would have a tube surface area of about 3.7cm2. (+ .56 cm2 or so if we include the surface area of the end caps)

    I think only part of the device is radiating heat.

    Could it be the whole tube is sapphire glass as has been suggested by some here but is capped or contains a 1 cm2 BB radiating surface and it's only this 1cm2 surface that gets to 2700 degC?

    This way perhaps we still would have BB radiation from the thermal surface and the remainder of the device may be transparent to the optical component through the sapphire?

    I suppose the BB radiating surface would need interesting properties. I suppose some metals could fit but some times wonder if it could be Boron Nitride or Carbon or Or Boron Carbide. They have interesting thermal properties but very different complementary electrical ones.

    The SWNT and MWNT Nano tube variants are also very interesting in their sorbant properties with gases such as Hydrogen especially when doped or otherwise treated. although I'm not sure if they share some of the possibly useful properties of metal Hydrides or bi metal Hydrides or not. NT's can also contain nanowires of transition metals but I guess that's another story.

    Edit: Ahh my apologies.... I just realized I miss posted this in this thread. It a bit off topic here. Feel free to move it to a more appropriate one.

    axil Regarding the use of a Quadrupole.... Exactly....! It's this part that captured my eyes when I read it and made me think there may well be something in it. Then when started at this point and read through the rest I could see how they were trying to walk the reader through their ideas. There may be broader need for the test data of the QuarkX itself but to me the theoretical discussion was very intelligent despite what some others think. But I suppose you need to understand the significance of that point you raise here first.

    Regarding the initial heating are you sure the active part of the QuarkX was initially heated to 2000 deg C? I missed it in this paper? I'm sure the Hot Cat could well have been but I wonder if the QuarkX used some other kind of stimulation?

    Edit: Sorry BTE-Dan for getting a bit of Topic there... I jumped in with out reading the whole thread. Good luck with your test. It's really good to see yet another experimenter/replicator trying this.

    Good luck with the test Bob and thanks to Can for these great inputs. I think we are learning a lot from this robust methodical approach in your testing. This approach is exactly what is needed.

    May I ask if your fuel mixture is densely packed or loosely packed and if you see there is any advantage an ond of these approaches?

    I'm enjoying following these tests, seeing the growth in real reliable data and better understanding and am looking forward the developments in this and future tests.