randombit0 Member
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Posts by randombit0

    Band emissivity is:


    eb = integral (e(v)*B(v)*P(v) dv / integral B(v)*P(v) dv



    Mr Clarke ! You are mixing properties of the body and of the instrument calling that a definition of s property of the body! Are you writing your own science ?
    Have you ever realized also that every pixel has his OWN B(V) ?
    Calibration files serve just the purpose to eliminate the need to knowing the B(v) !


    I think you are hopeless ! But try to read this page:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissivity


    You will read that the values are referred to Total Hemispherical Emissivity.
    And if you read the big amount of literature and Emissivity Tables available you will see that they all have very similar numbers even for alumina so there is NOT a detector dependency on the numbers and nowhere is written "use this numbers ONLY with model XXX" !

    Not quite, it means that it has low total emissivity. However, at longer wavelengths it remains opaque, and therefore has high spectral emissivity.


    So you agree that it has low "hemispherical total emissivity" = integral of (spectral). Good.
    Now how can you understand that for the Alumina pipes the Authors obtain exactly the literature value ?
    Note that the lower emissivity respect to the dot is evident.


    Most materials have similar total and band emissivity


    No Mr. Clarke they are two different quantities one being the integral of the other !
    One can be represented by only one value the other by a function !


    Paradigmoia please read the report look at the photo ! The camera looking at the rods was not the Hi-temp one (that has anyway a low temp range) but a standard Optris Pi-160 in range able to read even the lower temperatures of the whole long pipe. The difference of luminosity of the image is striking !
    And the Authors in that case applied correctly the method for measuring the emissivity ( only one number ! not a function ! ) described in every manual.

    but what it does not explicitly tell you in the manual



    :D LOL Come ON !!!!! They forget this "detail"


    The FLIR IR camera makers also seem to have forgot this ! :D
    https://www.ivytools.com/v/fli…lir-t420-users-manual.pdf


    You boy are really the ONLY expert in the world !


    Well done! You correctly identify a possible problem

    Thanks!


    Note that the fact that the Alumina was partially transparent means that has low emissivity !


    As usual in your answers you don't mention the rest and the evidences selecting ad hoc lines self referring to your own comment so not adding any information !

    Hello boys !A very quick answer between two meetings. Paradigmoia, nice that you have found that reference but I presume that you have not understood it very well.Emittance and Emissivity are two different concepts. Emittance is an extensive property of the material that depends also on the thickness of the layer considered while Evissivity is intensive property of surface.When trying to measure the temperature of a surface we must consider Emissivity that, in simple terms, indicates how much power is radiated at a certain temperature from the surface respect the radiated power of a Black Body.Quantum Mechanics states that at a certain temperature nothing can radiate more power then a Black Body (also known as perfect absorber) at any wave length. So emissivity is defined by the ratio of the integrated power spectrum radiated by a body and the integrated power spectrum of the Black Body and have values always <1 and is a non dimensional quantity. Factory calibration of the infrared camera, optris provide calibration files for each single camera and IR optics, ensures that Is the emissivity value that must be used in the setup. Not surely the emittance. As a proof look first at your graph, noting that there is not much variation from 300K to 1050k, so if we accept your statesment the group shuold have used a 0.9 value even for the rods, BUT from the IR images we note that the reference dot (which has an emissivity 0.95) looks as bright spot . This meas that the alumina pipe has an emissivity much lower then the dot !Nevertheless the authors in fact have forgotten a detail, that doesn't create a real problem but should be noted. In the case of the reactor Alumina is put on the Kanthal wires and becoming partially transparent to IR at high temperatures part of the radiation to the camera comes directly from the wire. Because the actual material of the wire was unknown so also the alumina thickness it was impossible to make a correct calculus of the actual emissivity that was a convolution of three functions on T: wire emissivity, alumina transparency, alumina emissivity.Data of emissivity Alumina on Inconel is commonly available for IR measurements:http://www.scigiene.com/pdfs/4…erEmissivitytablesrev.pdf
    As you see from the table the range given .69 at 427 °C and .45 at 1093 °C match quite well the values actually used by the Authors.Finally even if we suppose that a slightly higher figure for the emissivity parameter was a better choice for the reactor body during the run we should note that the actual measured emitted Energy has a very weak dependency on that parameter.That because IR camera use the emissivity in the inverse of the Stefen Boltzmann law to obtain the temperature and when we recalculate the energy the two factors cancel.The reported result seems correct and we estimated that in the most pessimistic and unrealistic scenario they should be 30% higher then real tacking the COP to 2.57. The rest of the analysis remains valid and due to the long amount of time of the run the energy produced seems far beyond any chemical source.This was a quick answer..... CU next time.... pardon me if there was any Typo.

    Maybe it's nothing.


    Yes is nothing. Emissivity dots have a emissimity much higher then Alumina.


    What I recommend to test the validity of the recursive emissivity method is substituting the values on the red line for the Lugano line. This requires a spectral radiance model, or an IR camera (or possibly a spot pointer) using the 7.5 to 13 micron IR range.


    Are you ok ? This is nonsense !

    the data needs explanation and she/he/they have indicated she/he/they believe the resistors to be made of metal alloy (not SiC which would have very different appearance) and therefore cannot have a very large NTC.



    Dear Mr.Clarke,
    She (have you any problem ?) will give you an explanation. This issue was already answered more then one year ago.
    The actual material of the coils in not known but a good hypothesis is that should be a Kanthal rod.
    This material has a ohmic behavior i.e. his resistance decreases when temperature increase.
    Kanthal is a metal alloy, and the wires coming out from the reactor were made by that material.
    The system was always connected in Delta configuration.

    I alway know that Tom Clarke was wrong about Lugano because the core of that reactor melted.



    The core of the Lugano reactor never melted.
    Have you red the report or not ? I think not.


    This is exactly the reason why we should stop discussing this report. It screws up everybody's (me included) mind, because most details in the Lugano report present a new uncertainty, we can't cope with. Just to add a few more: Wrong calculation of resistance/wattage for the wires, extensive heat transport over outgoing copper wires into the rods. Picking some particle out of the ash and doing MS etc..


    1) Joule heating power. When we (oh sorry, I'm not alone) analyzed the report we notice that. In particular a factor Sqrt(3)=1.732 and the cos(phy)<1 are missing . The two errors partially compensate each other but we think that rhe team under estimated slightly the real result. This should mean that they under estimated also the COP by a few %. Not really a problem
    2) Heat transport. The wires coming out from the reactor were not made by copper but with same alloy of the resistors.
    3) Picking some particle. There was severe restrictions by Rossi and IH on the test. The samples were collected by the team anyway so what the problem ?

    If it were a crime to make mistakes over this matter you would be sentenced now at least twice!



    My Dear Mr.Clarke,
    making errors is not a crime, but trying to influence a Jury writing "ad hoc" erroneous argumentation maybe is.


    The authors don't explain the 2/3 in Equation (24) and have clearly made another mistake,


    Again hiding some important information, or most probably not even being able to read a report Mr. Clarke.


    The authors in fact has explained why on page 18.

    Quote

    Because the rods were placed in overlapping positions, each one of them was capable of dissipating heat to the environment for only 2/3 of its surface


    And just before the formula you cite is also written:
    [quote]We can now calculate the total heat emitted from both sets of three rods, bearing in mind how much of their surface is actually emitting heat[\quote]

    I think that we should really limit our self to discuss Scientific and Technical topics. I have found too many incorrect or even completely wrong argumentation here especially in the skeptical authors.
    The real worse thing seems that some of them don't do that by error but by purpose and interest.
    Others are skeptical followers not informed about the topic and write in favor of the front they think more safe just copying the same erroneous argumentation of the first.
    There is also a huge number of personal attacks, that I found quite unprofessional and disgusting.

    Hi all, hope that you had a nice Saturday. First of all I changed my icon so you will stop making an OT discussion. Then reading among your posts I have understood one important point.


    Now, this is a thread to discuss the dispute between Rossi and IH and particularly issues which might be made clearer. It will be considered in court and the jurors (ordinary citizens) will need to understand the issues well enough to make a ruling.


    So we are NOT discussing of science here.
    I think that in this case the Jurors must be warned that too many people in this forum seem to have a stake and too many seem not expert of the field.


    I would like to write about Science. Just Science. So Mr. Clarke are you ready ?