Ascoli65 Member
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Posts by Ascoli65

    For the most part your facts are correct.


    Fine, that's a good starting point.


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    I take exception with your description of "Group A"; the American select few leaders who you claim strongly supported the tests results on the internet. You have referenced some posts in the past, from the obscure website Vortexmail. I do not think that qualifies as "supported on the internet". Almost no one reads that site.


    Not only Vortex. This site was the main gatherer of these supports, but in almost every site on internet where the Ecat tests were criticized there was an almost immediate intervention to defend the reliability of the results (1).


    Moreover you should not forget the JoNP, the main propagandistic tool of the Ecat initiative. Krivit suggested that its domain had been registered by an American, and provided the hints to identify him (2).


    Finally, an incredible number of supporting sites appeared on the web in a few months (3). Were all of them spontaneous initiatives?


    (1) https://aleklett.wordpress.com…new-physics/#comment-5745

    (2) https://www.mail-archive.com/v…@eskimo.com/msg38061.html

    (3) http://newenergytimes.com/v2/s…is-Internet-Network.shtml

    Well, that's Macy's perspective.


    Not only Macy's.


    http://www.mail-archive.com/vo…@eskimo.com/msg42336.html

    Comments by Duncan, Celani at ICCF16

    Jed Rothwell
    Mon, 07 Feb 2011 05:59:42 -0800

    Rob Duncan was supposed to give one of the keynote addresses. Unfortunately, the blizzard in the U.S. shut down Chicago and he was unable to come. He e-mailed his comments and they were read by Melich. They were excellent. I hope to get a copy soon. Anyway, one thing he said was that the heat in many of these experiments is "definitely real." I think he also said it is definitely not chemical.


    Rossi's work was discussed by Celani and then Melich.


    Celani's description of the demo was more critical than his discussion with me, yesterday. He was quite upset that they did not let him make nuclear measurements, and I suspect that has colored his thinking. Rossi told him "we can't let you take a gamma spectrum because that will tell you exactly what reactions are going on, and we cannot reveal that information until we can get a patent." That remark alone is revealing, isn't it!


    I am not good at taking notes while listening to a lecture, but here are some of my notes from Celani's talk.


    This was not a typical cold fusion experiment, especially in the choice of materials, which was nickel plus two other unnamed mystery elements. It is "conceptually mistaken" to call this Ni cold fusion. Celani believes these other elements are the active ingredient and the Ni assists the reaction in the other elements. [I have the opposite impression; that the other elements are dopants which enhance the Ni reaction that Piantelli and Focardi discovered years ago.]


    There were many problems with the demonstration. The device was working a lot better on January 13. Unfortunately, on the day the people assembled, the A/C heater failed "catastrophically" and then some other parts were acting flaky. The audience become restless and upset. When they finally got it going, they were only able to reduce control power down to 400 W, and it was not as steady as it had been in recent tests at U. Bologna. On Jan. 13 and in some previous tests they could bring it down closer to 100 W, which is more impressive, with a "gain" of 30 - 40. [I quibble with use of the term "gain" in this context.] Celani referred to the 100 W level as the "self-sustaining level." In other words, almost heat after death.


    The hygrometric probe [RH meter] was not reliable and the readings were not continuous.


    There was the sound of steam but it was not loud. There was a lot of noise in the crowded room.


    The data acquisition system failed, as noted by Levi in his report, which is why they had to use a photo of the screen.


    Celani thinks there were "questionable assumptions" about the dry steam. He showed a graph of the estimates made here about 1% of the steam by volume reducing the enthalpy by a large margin. (Storms says that estimate is wrong -- the reduction is much too big.)


    Celani thinks the outlet temperature probe was too close to the body of the machine.


    Celani reiterated what he told me yesterday, that calorimetry by vaporization is problematic, and it would be better to increase the flow rate and use water below 90 deg C instead.


    Levi and Rossi are preparing a more detailed report about the recent set of tests. (The Levi report now uploaded is a rush job, as I think anyone can see.)


    After the talk, Celani mentioned that he held his hand over the exit pipe, which I think is rubber. Someone asked if he touched it. He said it was too hot. That would put it at about 50 deg C, as the person pointed out. That's very hot.


    Melich, Storms and I feel that some of this is nitpicking. Celani did not address the most important issue, which is that even if there was a only a tiny bit of steam, that means the water temperature was close to 100 deg C, so there must have been massive excess heat, on the order of 400 W in, 1,800 out. You can ignore the steam altogether. In most cold fusion experiments this much excess heat would be considered a definitive triumph.


    McKubre remarked that Rossi presence in the room during the test "weakens" the claim. I don't think anyone would argue with that.


    Melich followed with a shorter discussion, without viewgraphs. He was more circumspect because some of the work he based his discussion has not been published yet so he cannot reveal full details. He is confident that it will be published. He agreed that Rossi's results are still somewhat "fuzzy" but warned people not to judge a project by a one-off test on one day, especially a test with 50 impatient people in the room. That is bound to be somewhat chaotic.


    Levi remarked somewhere that he felt confident in the machine after the Dec. 16 test [Test 1] and also when he saw it run with no input, in heat after death. Levi's judgement does not rest entirely on the Jan. 14 demonstration [Test 2]. People such as Melich and Levi, who know the most about this machine, seem to have the highest confidence that it is real. That is a good sign.


    - Jed



    How do you explain this?

    There was no discussion of Rossi at the conference.

    No they are not documented facts. They are mainly imaginary facts dreamed up by you, or exaggerations. I was at ICCF16, and the proceedings are here:
    http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/BiberianJPjcondensedi.pdf

    One paper mentions Rossi.


    You looked at the wrong document. Of course the proceedings of a conference started on February 6 couldn't have mentioned the results of a public demo carried out on January 14. The only paper mentioning Rossi was from Jacques Dufour, who was in touch with Rossi since at least April 2010 (1). There you can really find a lot a "imaginary" and "dreamed up" facts, as well as the usual "exaggerations".


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    The word Ecat does not appear anywhere in the proceedings.


    It couldn't have been there, not even in the Dufour's paper, because the name Ecat was announced for the first time during the Bologna demo.


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    There was no discussion of Rossi at the conference. As far as I know, most of the people there never heard of him.


    No doubt that most people there never heard of him until the beginning of the conference, but I guess that after the conference they knew even his shoe number!


    In the "Overview of ICCF16 in India" written by M.Macy (2), Rossi is cited 30 times versus the 16 times of an old glory of LENR as McKubre (including the caption under the first photo).


    There have been even a special section dedicated to Rossi (3).


    (1) http://www.journal-of-nuclear-…p=168&cpage=1#comment-209

    (2) http://www.infinite-energy.com…s/pdfs/MacyICCF16IE96.pdf

    (3) http://www.mail-archive.com/vo…@eskimo.com/msg42263.html

    Shane,


    Conspiracies are very hard to accomplish. The more involved, the harder it gets. Especially so when you are talking about, in most cases, older, well established scientists with little to gain, and everything to lose.


    I agree, and I never talked in terms of conspiracy. Many others here like to use this word, improperly.


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    There was no conspiracy, plan, coordination, or organized attempt by the UOB scientists, and the select few leaders in LENR to cover up, or ignore these test results, in order to attract funding for the field.


    You have mixed too many words in a single sentence: too many alternative definitions, for different groups of protagonists, combined with too many common objectives. This sentence is not appraisable. You should deal with a few aspects at a time, starting from simpler facts, and avoiding challenging words like "conspiracy". A simpler word as "initiative" could help to better understand the possible relationships among facts and people.


    Let's take for example the facts from December 2010 to February 2011, which we are discussing now.


    EVENTS - In this period there have been some important events:

    - on December 16, the private test on the Ecat, documented as Test 1 in the UniBo calorimetric report;

    - on January 14, the public demo in Bologna, where an Ecat was tested in the presence of many experts and journalists, and whose results were reported as Test 2 in the UniBo calorimetric report;

    - on January 23, the publication on internet of the UniBo calorimetric report, which reported 9810 kW of output with an input of 1120 W (or even zero) for Test 1, and an output of 12886 W with an average input of 1022 W for Test 2;

    - on February 6 to 11, at ICCF16 in Chennai (India) the attention was focused on the Ecat tests and the calorimetric results reported on the UniBo document..


    PROTAGONISTS – The main protagonists of the above events belongs to two main groups.


    - Group A (as Americans), formed by the "select few leaders in LENR" that contributed to the preparation, verification, and review of the UniBo calorimetric report, and who strongly supported on internet and inside the LENR community the results reported on it, and the competence and reliability of the people of Group B;


    - Group B (as Bologna), formed by "UNIBO scientists" who publicly assumed the responsibility for the Bologna demo, performed the measurements, got the experimental data, wrote the calorimetric report in collaboration with the Group A, allowed the issue of this report, and finally, in the subsequent months, always confirmed the reported calorimetric results in tens of occasions: interviews broadcasted by radio and TV stations or diffused by videos on internet, letters addressed to major newspapers, participation in public conferences, etc.


    The two groups collaborated between January 14 and 23 in order to reach a common but limited objective, the issue of a calorimetric report which stated that, in two tests carried out under the scientific supervision of physicists of a prestigious University, a table top device was capable of producing 10 kW of heat, with an input power of 1 kW.


    The above are documented facts. Aren't they?


    As for speculations, there is no reason to believe that Groups A and B have acted on the basis of the same broad and mutually shared plan. It's probable that the final objectives of the two groups were different, but that the issue of the aforementioned report was functional to the achievement of both their separate objectives.


    Isn't it simpler this way?

    If Levi intentionally shut off the water tap to produce falsified data, that would be scientific fraud.


    You are going too far. For the moment, we are discussing whether the water flux halted, or not.


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    The Tin sensor was located in the vicinity of a metallic inlet tube located close to the portion of the device where the apparently anomalous reaction supposedly occurred (where the H2 inlet ends in). I would expect the sudden additional heat (reported ~10 kW vs 1.1 kW of the heaters) to be conducted to surrounding parts of the setup. See attached images.


    Oh yes, me too. In case of a sudden onset of genuine or fake additional 10 kW, the external surface of the Ecat should have become much hotter, so I would have expected a quite rapid and evident increase of Tamb, but it didn't happen, it remained nearly flat.


    On the contrary, I wouldn't have expected any increase of the temperature measured by a sensor inserted in a rubber hose many cm upstream from the closest metallic part of the Ecat, and immersed in the coolant flowing at few cm/s.


    In any case, the experimental evidence shows that Tin was asymptotically approaching Tamb. There is no possibility at all that this very specific trend can be induced by a heat flux emanating from the Ecat. It is the clear sign that the temperature of the water inside the tube is going to equalize the temperature of the surrounding ambient, and this can happen only if the water is still. This is the more simple, straightforward and congruent explanation.


    I haven't still understood if you exclude it, and, in case, why, and which specific alternative explanation you propose.

    McKubre said in his ICCF21 speech, the LENR community does *not* collaborate, coordinate, and communicate now, nor have they ever.


    In the occasion of the ICCF19 held in Padua, he wrote a series of 5 posts dedicated to the history of ICCFs (http://www.iccf19.com/history1.html ). Very interesting. Unfortunately they are no longer available on internet, I hope you have saved a copy. Text and photos gave the impression of a very well integrated and solid group of people. So, I don't know what he was referring to at ICCF21.


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    Yet you are saying they did exactly that in 2010/2011 to turn a failed Ecat test, into a "success".


    Not exactly. Let me clarify a couple of things.


    First, about the "failed Ecat tests", I didn't say they had failed, I'd rather say they were faked. It's different. You have a failed test when you expect a positive outcome, which doesn't occur. This was not the case with the Ecat tests. Consider, for example, the Test 1 I'm discussing with *can*. If the water flow was stopped in the middle of the test, but it was reported that it flowed until the end, it means that it was well known in advance that the tested device was not able to work as claimed.


    Second, about the role of the LENR community in the Ecat affair. It's clear that only a few of them have actively participated in the organization and promotion this initiative, not the entire community. But after the Bologna demo, and for a long time later, it was very difficult to hear a voice of skepticism or disagreement coming from the LENR community that denounced the inconsistencies of those incredible proclaimed data.


    The support of some, and the silence of the others, helped the Ecat initiative in getting the financial success that now provides the major economic help to the LENR community.

    Your analysis throws away the possibility of chemical heating and input power mismeasurements which as a skeptical explanation are far more likely than the large-scale scientific fraud-collusion-conspiracy that you've been suggesting since 2011.


    First, I'm not skeptic. Skepticism entails doubts, and I have no doubts that the Ecat, as any other LENR device, never produced any excess heat. Sorry. Second, I don't understand the connection between the shutting off of a water tap in the middle of a test and a "large-scale scientific fraud-collusion-conspiracy".


    We are discussing now - since a week - a well precise and much more limited argument, that is how to interpret the few experimental evidences available for the December 16, 2011 test, known as "Test 1". This topic was introduced by you (1), and you expressed your lack of understanding about what went on (2).


    I provided you a possible explanation based on this evidence:



    Thanks to your nice othogonalization of the original photo, everybody can see that at about 17:46, after having reached an almost stationary level, Tout (yellow line) starts to sharply increase again. Contemporary, also Tin (blue line) starts to increase, approaching asymptotically Tamb (red line). This behavior can be easily explained with a stopping of the water flow.


    I already asked you if you have other hypotheses that could explain these trends. Now you are talking about "chemical heating and input power mismeasurements". Fine, I'm curious. Can you tell me, please, how they could have determined the Tin increase?


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    Chemical reactions can also be ignited and self-sustain; I'm not sure why you find these terms funny.


    I didn't say they are funny, and I was not referring to alleged "chemical reactions". They were excluded, as any other already known energy source, by the conclusions of the calorimetric report:

    From http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LeviGreportonhe.pdf :


    Conclusions

    The amount of power and energy produced during both tests is indeed impressive and, together with the self sustaining state reached during [Test 1] could be an indication that the system is working as a new type of energy source of unknown origin. The short duration of the tests suggests that is important to make more long and complete experiments. An appropriate scientific program will be draw.



    (1) Rossi Lugano/early demo's revisited. (technical)

    (2) Rossi Lugano/early demo's revisited. (technical)

    I think the main question is why setting up (also with Levi's collaboration) such a sloppy yet precise test when there would have been much more convincing ways to describe one that produced abundant excess heat from LENR?


    This is also an important question which deserves some attention, but the "why" comes after the "what". One thing at a time, please.


    A few months ago I told you that this story is like a very complicate puzzle with many missing pieces and even more fake ones (1). To figure out the whole picture we have to assemble small subsets of good pieces, throwing away the bad ones. Now we have assembled two alternative subset of pieces that could be placed on the December 16, 2010 zone. One subset contains pieces like "LENR device", "fully ignition of the reactor", "self-sustaining operation". The pieces of the other subset are "water boiler", "joule effect", "flow stopped to keep boiling the water as long as possible". Before trying to enlarge it by adding more pieces on its contour, we have to place within the frame one of these two subsets. Which one do we chose?


    (1) Rossi-Blog Comment Discussion

    Shane,


    You freely use terms like "false data", and "fake report", and we know without saying who , and what you are referring to. Not Rossi for those tuning in.


    "False data" and "fake report" are judgments on things (data and report), not persons. Furthermore they are scientific evaluations, not legal. You know how many times harsh legal judgments on persons (well, just on one) appeared on this forum, I never used them.


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    As I said before, I do not believe there was any intent to alter data. so I am not willing to go there with you.


    OK, I understand, that's a prudent behavior in your role of moderator. It is also the best one to be adopted for anyone else that has not enough background for scientifically evaluating the many evidences available for these first tests.


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    However, you appear to be making a solid case the data was wrong...therefore the tests conclusions were also wrong, along with some odd blips, or two.


    I would say more. The tests were manipulated, the main data were invented, so the test conclusions were faked.


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    So unless some of those here with the background refute what you are so well demonstrating (with Cans help), I will assume the tests were simply failures as you say they were.


    OK, thank you for your trust on my conclusions, but I need to better specify my thought. I didn't say they were failures, I said they were successes. You know, it depends on the purposes, and there is no doubt that the Bologna demo was a big success for the aims of many people of the LENR community which supported the Ecat initiative.

    EDIT: so here's the graph with the updated labels.

    5712-rossi-20101216-test1-data-rt-png


    OK, thanks again.


    This final version of the graphs describes quite well my present interpretation of what happened in the evening of December 16, 2010 in Bologna. It's an alternative explanation with respect to that one described in the calorimetric report issued as an official UniBo document on January 23, 2011, and whose steps are summarized in this image: https://i.imgur.com/lspWYXq.jpg


    And now the old and big question. Is one of these two alternative interpretations quite convincing for you, or you have a third explanation of what happened in that occasion?

    For what it's worth, roughly 11 minutes passed between updates in the other two channels.


    They are not real updates, that is modifications of the values of the recorded data. There was not been any recording between 16:40 and 17:24, and hence no update. Those two jumps are only the effect of the discretization of the representation of two lines on the pixel matrix of the screen. So the instant in which one represented line jumps from a pixel line to another depends on its inclination. The same happens for the Tout curve, where the line was more inclined, so that there are many jumps, at a constant pace.

    It seems to me instead that there were missing Tout readings and the software (Testo Comsoft Basic 4) interpolated the missing measurements linearly from the last valid sample. Quick demonstration of the same behavior with LibreOffice Calc:


    Why would Tout have increased linearly like that, anyway?


    For the same reason you said before. Probably we are saying the same thing with different words.


    Imagine that when the system was started, the acquisition timestep was already set at 1 hour or more. The system took immediately the first record, where all the temperature were at the ambient value. Then it didn't take records anymore, until it was realized that it was not indicating any increase of temperature, notwithstanding the heaters were powered on. At that point the timestep was set at 10 s, and the system took its second record, and began to take all the others at a 10 s pace. From the first record to the second one the system drew three lines, of which the Tout one is the only evident.


    It seems to me that it is a much more straightforward explanation than "the sensor might have been disconnected for some reason after the acquisition device was first turned on."


    Anyway, this is not a big problem. If you prefer, the mark at 17:24:30 could just indicate the "Beginning of the real data" or something similar.

    Shane, thank you for your opinion, but, for sake of frankness, let me reassert mine.


    Since Doral, I do not believe any publicly released result from a Rossi demo. That includes the two tests at UOB being discussed.


    Nobody believed any result from an Ecat test thanks to Rossi. The tests being discussed were not "at" UniBo (they were carried out at a Rossi's warehouse), they were "of" UniBo, i.e. carried out under their scientific responsibility. They have been documented by UniBo, their results were guaranteed by the competence of UniBo personnel, and whoever believed those results trusted UniBo, not Rossi.


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    Neither do I think Levi, and those assisting him, ever expected their results to be taken as the final word either.


    But this is not a justification for having diffused false data. The fact that a test is only preliminary does not authorize to use invented data in reporting its results, especially if this report is prepared with the scope of releasing it as an official document of a University. It was well known that that report would have been spread throughout the world in order to propagandize the existence of a technology that, if real, would have resolved the most severe problems of the humankind. All the people involved at whichever title on this activity should have had managed those information with extreme care and scruple.


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    They proposed further testing, …


    Oh, yes, this is well known. Those further testing should have been financed with 500,000 Euro promised by Rossi. Is this a good reason for a University to issue a faked report?


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    … which they accomplished first at Ferrara with the Hotcat, and again at Lugano.


    No, the Ferrara and Lugano tests were not the tests that, at beginning of 2011, were foreseen to be carried out with the official involvement of UniBo. They were private tests, carried out after the official withdrawal of UniBo from the contract with Rossi in January 2012 (too late, unfortunately). They were for private purposes, with the participation of some academicians from a couple of European Universities, who used their affiliation to give more credibility to the published results.


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    Lugano was a clear bust, and since it was a follow-up to Ferrara, I must conclude Ferrara was a bust also.


    I'm sorry, but an inference reasoning doesn't work this way, it should start from the beginning, from the Bologna demo. This first public appearance was not a bust, that is a failure of a fair attempt, it was instead a success, an incredible successful deception. The Bologna demo and the previous December test were clearly deceptive, so it should have been concluded, in lack of any explanation about the reasons of these deceptions, that any other successive test (including Ferrara and Lugano) should have been considered deceptive as well.


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    Even though no one has determined yet what particular trick Rossi pulled there.


    Once again, why do you attribute the sole responsibility of the tricks to Rossi? How do you know it?


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    I do not think there was any intentional attempt during any of the tests, by those from the UOB to manipulate the data.


    I don't know. A scientific test does not only include the few hours during which the specimen is operated and the data collected. It also comprises the earlier preparatory phase, and the subsequent reporting activity. Do you think that the experimental data have been reported correctly, and with the correct interpretation?

    As for the acquisition time step set to 10s, couldn't it be that instead they/Rossi simply forgot to connect the NTC Tout sensor, given that Tin and Tamb changed value at least once at different times before that, while Tout never changed since the data logger was presumably turned on?


    No, sorry. The Tout sensor was connected since the activation of the data acquisition system, otherwise there wouldn't be any initial straight line, because the plotting program wouldn't have had any starting point to draw it.


    As for your explanation, if you are talking of the apparent values on the screen, all 3 temperatures changed. Tout changed its apparent value (crossing the pixel lines) many times at a regular pace, which denotes its linear trend. The other two, Tamb and Tin, changed only one time, as you noticed, so we have only 2 horizontal segments for each curve. This behavior is also compatible with a straight line, even if it is not sufficient to confirm it.


    I take the opportunity to suggest you some further improvements of the last two graphs. It could be interesting to add also the mark lines in conformity to the interpretation given in the UniBo report. You can take advantage from this image: https://i.imgur.com/lspWYXq.jpg


    In order to avoid any confusion with my interpretation, the UniBo descriptions could be superimposed to the upper graph, possibly with a different color of the text.


    As for the present scripts in the lower graph, let me suggest some more modifications:

    - instead of "water flux calibration" it would be more appropriate saying "water flux setting";

    - for what has been said above, "Tout NTC sensor connected" should be modified in "Acquisition timestep set at 10 s";

    - being my own interpretation, I would remove the question mark from "Water flows stops?";

    - just for completeness, I would also mark the reduction of the power and its complete switching off .

    I tried putting together another plot. I'm not entirely sure of the timeline you provided.


    Fine. Very nice graphs, as usual. I'll try to clarify your doubts.


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    I'm assuming there were at least two attempts at setting up the water flux. How much time would have passed between one and the other? A few minutes?


    My hypothesis is that the period of 45 s, as period to fill the container, was chosen in order to make one calibration attempt every minute. The last could have been concluded immediately before the power on of the heaters at 17:22 ca. I don't know how many attempts there have been. We can assume 10 as order of magnitude. So the calibrations could have started at 17.12 ca. The previous half an hour could have been spent for filling the circuit, considering a total volume of about two liters and an initial flow rate of 1 g/s. These are all speculations, just to roughly evaluate the coherence of these assumptions.


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    By the way, I think they started earlier than 16:55. The photo doesn't show the entire plot. The top label "Grandezza naturale" should be roughly centered on the screen.


    Yes, the plot is not complete. I tried to localized the beginning in the following image.

    https://i.imgur.com/jG6xaUx.gif


    It's reasonable to assume that at the beginning all the three measured temperature were at the ambient value, so the starting point would be at the convergence point of the three initial straight lines, outside the left border of the photo. It seems to me that the common starting time could be around 16:40. The common initial temperature could have been 15°C. This value is congruent with the delta T of 85°C used in the report for calculating the entalpy of the steam.


    It would be useful to add these three straight lines to your graphs, and to mark the time when the acquisition timestep was set at 10 s.


    One last request. Please, modify the script "Reactor fully ignites" on the mark at 17:46, and the reference to a "reaction" on the final mark. They could not appear on a graph based on my indication! :)

    To be clear; you think there was nefarious and purposeful intervention with the water flow and power application, designed to skew the end results so as to appear overunity?


    No, not in order to appear overunity. For this minor (if it can be called this way) goal, it was sufficient to declare that the exiting flow was dry steam, so that the water flow of 3,73 g/s (168 g in 45 s) was stated to be equivalent to 9810 W, versus an input power of 1120 W, with a COP of almost 9. Conversely, the intervention on the water flow and power application was intended to induce the convincement that the device was able to generate almost 10 kW of nuclear energy without the support of any external source, i.e. that it was able to operate in the so called self-sustaining mode (infinite COP) for about 15 minutes.


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    Not choosing sides here. In fact you have been nothing short of masterful in getting this to where you did. And who can not be impressed with Can and his talents? Great job by both. Let the better science argument win I say. Wish I could judge who is right, and who not, but guess I will have to stick with my old appeal to authority.


    Which two sides? Do you intend *can* and me? I don't think we are in competition. I did this work with a cooperative spirit, and I think the same was for him. He has been the best interlocutor I could have find, because, beyond his technical talents, he remains open to give credit to the protagonists of this story, so compensating for my negative bias on them. This relieves me from the burden to find by myself all the possible objections to my own hypotheses.


    For the moment, unless *can* provides a third explanation, the two sides corresponds to the interpretation of the December 2010 test contained in the Unibo report and the one described by the graphs plotted by *can* on the basis of my indications. The scientific authority is entirely on the first side. Does it means that you stick with the interpretation reported by UniBo?

    It's a big assumption. Is it entirely consistent with the observed trend of inlet water temperature?


    Yes, indeed, very big. And IMO is entirely consistent with the experimental evidences and the outcomes of the above model.


    I called it "assumption", but I should have used "deduction", considering the clear evidences in favor of a water stopping. Not only because of the typical heating trend of Tin, which clearly indicates an asymptotic progressive warming toward Tamb, but also because it starts just when Tout begins to rise again.


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    For example, what could have caused it to decline at an apparently accelerating pace before the water flow got interrupted?


    I don't think that the decline phase can compromise the significance of the rising one. But your question is intriguing, so I tried to imagine a possible explanation. Here is my best guess.


    In the calorimetric report, we can read: "Before igniting the reactor the water flux was set and measured by collecting, and then weighting, an amount of water in a container in a given time. The measured flux was of 168 +/- 2 g in 45 +/- 0.1 s."


    The phrase "the water flux was set" suggests that there was a precise level of water flux to be set. In my opinion, this level was the flow that should have given a power out of 10 kW, assuming dry steam at the outlet. Considering a delta T of 85°C, as indicated in the report, and the evaporation entalpy of 2272 J/g, each g/s of water flux would have been equivalent to: 85 x 4,185 + 2272 = 2628 W/(g/s). Therefore a power of 10 kW would have required a water flux of 3,805 g/s. So, it was first necessary to open the water tap as much as necessary to get that flux, at the specific pressure of the water system at that time.


    Consequently, after the data acquisition system was turned on, the water tap was slightly opened and held in this position for a few minutes, until the water has started to escape from the end of the outlet tube. At that point, the water flux was measured by weighting the water poured into a container over a given period of time. If the weight was significantly lower than the target value, the handle of the water tap was rotated by a fixed angle, the container empted, and all the operations repeated.


    This way of working would also explain the reason why the time base used to fill the container was set to the strange and unusual value of 45 s. I suspect that a normal watch was used to measure time, and that a time base of 45 s would have allowed to complete a measuring step – filling, weighting, pouring and rotating - in a complete turn of the second's hand, facilitating in this way the control of the timing.


    Thus, it was established that the target value for the water mass was 3.805 x 45 = 171 g in 45 s. When the fairly close weigh of 168 g was measured, it was decided to switch on the heaters. It happened at t=7s of your graphs. Thereafter, the curve of Tin has two more downward steps with about the same length followed by a much longer lowest level, which is the expected trend for a cooling down at a constant flow.


    So, this setup procedure would explain both the accelerating pace of the downwards steps up to t=7s, and the subsequent decelerating pace.


    Is it reasonable for you? Any other objection?


    Going a little further. After switching on, it was expected that temperatures would rise on the PC screen, but it didn't happen, probably because of the wrong setting of the acquisition timestep. After a while, the time step was set at 10 s, and the first real point was plotted on the T graph.


    If you have time and possibility, it would be useful to have a graph with the experimental data (power in and temperatures) plotted in function of the real local time, and starting from the presumed time when the data acquisition system was switched on, with these actions marked on it.

    I'm generating the plots with computer code (I'm not using a spreadsheet) with as little "baked in" values as possible and also trying to limit complexity to keep it manageable and less prone to errors, so I ended up using your initially proposed method and dropping mine or the idea of combining both. Thus, below is the resulting graph.


    OK, that's enough. Thank you again.


    The average Pvap=200 W of my method is well confirmed by your initial 334 W, so it's not necessary to complicate too much your computer code.


    Just a few words of comment at the end of this work. IMO the final curves you posted above describe a realistic time evolution of what could have happened on the evening of December 16, 2010, in a warehouse in the periphery of Bologna. All the curves follows the expected behavior in accordance to the usual physics. The only strangeness is the little bump in the (Emet+Evap) curve, which in turn reverberates in the Emet curve, but it could depend on a misalignment of the other quantities used to compute (Emet+Evap). This model keeps valid as many as possible of the info provided in the Levi's report, but it adds the new basic assumption that the water tap has been closed at 17:47 (real time) and fully reopened almost half an hour later, at 18:14. The power to the electric heaters has been partially reduced at 17:58, and totally switched off at 17:03. The heat accumulated in the metallic parts close to the electric heaters in the period of no flow and power on has been sufficient to maintain the boiling temperature for 10-15 minutes more.


    This is a completely different interpretation of the Test 1 with respect to the one provided in the calorimetric report issued with the UniBo logo in January 2011, where the maintaining of the boiling temperature for about 15 minutes was presented as the effect of the generation of more than 9 kW of heat in self-sustaining mode by an alleged nuclear reactor based on controversial phenomena, denied by the mainstream science.


    So we have now two different interpretations. If you like to add a third one, I'm ready to examine and discuss it, otherwise I would like to know which one of the first two is more convincing for you.

    Why not like this?

    (honest question, that's how I tried to calculate it earlier today)


    Well done! That's a good way to esteem the Pvap at the onset of boiling, when the resistors are still powered on and Tmet is close to its maximum value.


    My estimation was instead about the maximum Evap along the entire 20 minutes of the boiling period. The value of 240 kJ corresponds to an average Pvap of 200 W, which gives the straight line I suggested before, if it is supposed to stay constant for the entire boiling period. But it was just a first order approximation.


    Our two methods can be joined in order to get a even better estimation, just drawing a line for Pvap starting with a value of 334 W a t=37s and decreasing to zero at t=57s, whose integral is 240 kJ.


    Are you able to do that?


    --------------- Eta:

    A simpler way to take into account both our estimations, is to assume a linear Pvap going from an initial rounded up value of 350 W (at t=37s) to a final value of 50 W (at t=57s), considering that there was still some boiling when the flooded started. The resulting average value would still be 200 W.

    Here's your plot.


    Thanks, so much.


    Well, now we can use the time evolution of (Emet+Evap) to estimate Evap.


    We know that Evap=0 until Tout is<100°C, that is up to the time tb=37 s. At this same time Emet is 370 kJ, therefore we can assume this value as the level of energy stored in the metal which allows the water to boil. Until the time ts=57 s, when the power is completely switched off, the curve (Emet+Evap) continues to increase reaching a maximum of 650 kJ, then it keeps decreasing due to dispersed heat. Finally, at time tf=57 s ca. - when the flooding begins - (Emet+Evap) is 610 kJ. By considering that at that time the water is still boiling, we can deduce that Emet is at least 370 kJ, so that Evap<610-370 = 240 kJ.


    As for the Evap curve, it can be approximated by a straight line which rises from zero (at t=37s) up to 240 kJ (at t=57s), and remains at this value thereafter. Emet can be obtained by difference.


    Does it sound reasonable to you?


    May I also ask you to include these two new quantities (Evap and Emet) in the energy graph? A curve representing (Ecool=Eout+Evap) would be also meaningful, because it represents the total heat carried away by the coolant. Thanks in advance.


    This last evaluation does finally allow to answer your starting question:

    - Roughly how much water do you think was still contained inside the device after the flow stopped?


    Assuming Evap=240 kJ, the heat of vaporization being 2257 J/g, it follows that the maximum mass of water which could have evaporated was 106 g. This is about 10% of the water inventory inside the Ecat, therefore at the end of the boiling phase, almost 90% of the water is still inside the device.