Posts by StephenC

AlainCo. I'm curious about your opinion if I may because you are quiet and not trying to influence opinion just asking people to take care. I respect that a lot. I too want to work against division I think there are many more aspects and opinions possible than just 2 sides and don't like to see attempts to divide people into two warring camps.

If I'm honest I find my self pushed more towards Rossi side of the debate by the sheer scale and style of onslaught of the posts against him. But may be that's me i don't like to see someone attacked in the playground by a mob what ever side they are on.Of course the other side claim IH are experiencing the same.

Your view is important to me because you strike me as thoughtful about the debate like me but have another opinion. May I ask if your opinion is based on what is seen in the forums or other information you have? Or is it the scale of the implications one side or the other that concern you?

with respect.
Stephen.

I recently came across the term "filibuster" in American politics? I'm not an American so don't fully understand its purpose though. Maybe someone can explain it if it's relevant. Can it also apply in legal circles as well as political debate? Or does that have other legal implications if used there. Could it be relevant on Internet forums too and if so to what purpose?

Hi Alan. I really appreciate Fredrics efforts it was a really good opportunity. Unfortunately I could not have attended this time but if it is arranged in the future I would certainly try to join.

I originally had high hopes for this meeting and also hoped to encourage some of my work colleagues who have some mainstream back ground to attend. But I guess the time was not right.

I'm afraid that if I primed them to look into it now they would first read up on it on the Internet and instead of reading all the interesting things done in the past years that caught my attention and imagination last year, they would instead see the current conflict and war of words surrounding current controversies. I'm afraid his would only reinforce prejudices and discourage them from taking things seriously in the future.

I suppose it it might be better to let the current situation blow over a bit before arranging a similar meeting? Or perhaps the opposite is the case if we counter the conflict and bad news with good data? Hopefully by Autumn things are already improved though.

if you do arrange it I wish you great success with it. Maybe it will be a good time to make a trip back to my home country

Thanks AlainCo for the gentle reminder. In these dramatic times It's easy to slip. I dont write often but looking back maybe I let my own views and frustrations get the better of me too at some points. I really regret Thomas going even though we have different views I found that on this forum he was generally respectful and mostly discussing science and technical facts as he saw them. It didn't matter too much to me if his view was right or wrong. A forum is about discussing different points of view and it needs people who take the counter points. I hope when things have blown over a bit he is back especially in the interesting and fast developing times ahead in June.

I like your entangled Schrödinger's cat it really feels like that somehow. Maybe that's the secret of LENR. I'm not sure he considered what happens when the cat is entangled. Who knows what zoo Of things and behavior comes out when we open that box. I hope despite everything we find some unexpected good things.

Clever ;). Hang in there Thomas I still hope this episode can blow over somehow and important days ahead in June.

For what it's worth, I'm saddened by all this today. I have my views but always appreciated Thomas Clarke's counterpoint. And the divide between others I respect a lot is also sad. I hope tomorrow it's a better day.

This is exactly what the "bullies in the playground" tried to do. Prod and taunt individuals into responding to them, then divide the group against each other, start a riot and then stand back and say look teacher see how bad they are. Those who started and engineered this apparent conflict must be sitting back in glee at the moment. Perhaps thats why they are quiet.

I don't think the thread should be deleted as it contains the history of this, starting from the beginning of this thread and previous threads its clear how it played out. I'm not that comfortable with publishing personal details though, and don't think Thomas Clarke deserves that.

I also agree with Keieueue comment on the other thread about "shills" overwhelming threads and trying to drive them into the ground I also think I see the same behaviour. But Its also recorded. I think thats good and clear enough to see for anyone who takes a look in the future. One day people will look back and wonder why those shills and bullies made such a big effort to do this. Thats one reason I tend to support Andrea Rossi in this no-one would make such an effort to attack someone on the forums if they felt there was nothing there to fight and that the person would be held to account legally anyway. I don't think TC is one of them he is quite active for sure but i think he genuinely takes the counter view in the debate about LENR the e-cat Tech etc because he feels it is important.

Sifferkol is also a very good investigative journalist and i appreciate a lot his blog and how he gets to the bottom of things. I wish he didn't feel conflicted with TC though.

I agree:
"Astonishing claims require extraordinary evidence" .

However good science should also include the counter argument:
"Astonishing data requires extraordinary investigation".

The first is the scientific method the second is exploration and discovery, both are important aspects of science. The first approach is generally safe to pursue to feel you are in the right and without too much criticism. The second requires the being prepared to explore of ideas that can be wrong. This takes courage. To be robust both aspects are needed and are complimentary.

I think that the fear of being labeled an eccentric or becoming an outcast has resulted in the first statement being used to prevent wider field acceptanceof the second at least for some subjects such as LENR. Fortunately that is not the case here.

@AlanCo,

I agree I too hope everyone can work together, whatever the outcome, in the days ahead when things become clearer. I'm not too worried though, I think there are some strong feelings here and some conflicts but I also think there is deep down underlying respect and some very smart people on all sides of the debate. I have some experience that when dealing with crisis having a diverse team of different opinions that nevertheless can respect and work together is much stronger than a team of identical people. In the beginning sometimes they first divide, defend, blame attack each other but if they can get past that stage and work together they can be the best teams in the world for resolving and overcoming real problems.

This kind of forum can be really good at building those kinds of teams. Actually this makes me very confident if their experience is needed as the LENR discussion goes forward.

There once was a magicians rabbit. When he jumped out of the magicians hat he was so confused by the smoke and mirrors he thought he lost his ears. Only when he escaped outside he realised he was a bunch of flowers.

I can some times sympathise with that rabbit.

Edit: David Foyt's english may have slipped a bit but he does have a point. (My english is also not perfect and I'm English). Replicators and other contributors have been able to agree and disagree here on this forum with reasoned debate, for years without degrading into this kind of embarrassing overwhelming conflict. I also fear it gives a bad impression to new readers.

Facts are good, taunts and mud slinging are a pain to read.

I guess there is a huge amount work being done by People like David and other replicators now, I'd much rather be reading about that kind of stuff.

Thanks very much Peter. I need to take some time to read those papers they do look interesting.

And the thread

Very Curious, it's not my intention to criticize, but there is quite a lot of super heated steam over on the super heated thread. Ironically here in the play ground there is some interesting science being discussed.

Its an interesting point about the high energy alphas interacting with other nuclei, has this been discussed at length before? If so could someone point me to it? I'd like to try and understand more about the background.

Yup I would tend to agree although its only based on visual impressions for me, I would tend of agree they do look quite professionally made. I'm not sure if they are 4 from thousands but they look like they have that potential. A lot of work has gone into that design. Good point

I hope this is a neutral question and hope it can improve the picture of how the project was run: Would someone be able to tell us something about how the teams running the test were organised? Or is that closed information at this time? I can understand if it is and don't want to press anyone on it.

I think I heard somewhere that there was a reasonably large team involved with different managers and experts responsible for different parts of the project. Is that true? Were there different teams responsible for the investigations and R and D than the day to day running of the project, were there different teams responsible for different subsystems of the technology such as the boiler maintenance and management, the e-cat tech, materials and components supplies etc. If so how was the work and responsibilities split between LC and IH. Was there only limited participation of IH as 2 engineers or were IH involved at different levels in different parts of the project as well.

Good point Been There Seen It about proton bombardment on other materials.

I suppose if this process is present and high energy protons are generated slowly the neutron yield would be low flux and similarly low rate over time. Its still very important to know about though. I think Me356 is 100% correct to make sure this aspect is well understood.

I hope the neutrons are generated at lower energy by some other process than bombardment perhaps on occasions as part of the interactions during a slower lower energy "proton capturing" process. If so it will be great if the energies of the neutrons or photon spectra emissions can give a window and help identify which of the ideas out there could be involved.

It would be really interesting if there are neutrons if we could determine their energy. It might give us a clue if they are generated by proton bombardment or some other lower energy means. Is there an easy way to do this or is an array of tuned detectors required?

Also it would be interesting if we can see the energy of any high energy protons.

I like Bob Greenyers Tracer idea to see what processes are present very clever.

I hope a cloud chamber can help to some degree too.

To be honest if the e-cat is built to use super heated steam, fits similar specifications and uses similar technology to other electrical boilers of similar size, I find it highly unlikely it was built by people who did not know the basics of boiler design, mechanics and, thermodynamics and steam engineering. I imagine to those engineers and designers we are discussing very basic normal stuff here.

Criticising the boiler design and how and where it is used on that basis is a bit like telling a chess master how to move his bishop.

I do understand though that for the most part we are just trying to understand the validity of it and how it worked from an observer point of view.

Keieueue, I think they are best ignored, "playground bullies" on any side thrive on getting negative responses. Its not worth going to that level.

@Thomas Clarke, I agree there is nothing wrong from taking a stance on LENR at an intellectual level, it helps to explore a view point and makes debate easier I suppose. But I think there are also some who approach it from a broader spectrum point of view especially on particular issues, theories and concepts, devices etc point of view.

With regard Rossi we for sure have different opinions based on different data, different approaches and different experiences, but I suspect we respect each other. I certainly do you. I suspect niether of us is comfortable with character assassination either. Which is why I prefer these kinds of disputes to be resolved in the proper place in court.

i do very much agree with your view point about main stream scientists. I wanted to take that route at one point and was close to it somehow, but instead ended up working as an engineer. I can only be an enthusiast now. But I read papers everyday on a large range of subjects purely out of interest. The depth of knowledge and technical skills and mathematical skills that are their normal bread and butter work are far more than I have at my finger tips. Their skills are remarkable and there acievements also important. There are many on these forums who have great concepts and some also with equal mathematical and technical skills to main stream scientists, but I wish more main stream scientists would engage with the process, and evaluate and debate the data and concepts presented. I think many main stream scientists excel in their specific fields but that LENR lies at the interfaces between these fields. Still we need those detailed skills of those individual experts.

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Would make a great twist in the movie.

@'Thomas Clarke. I read almost all your posts and although I don't always agree with all your conclusions, I find your points thought through mostly intelligent, and even if some people are over whelmed by repetition sometimes I appreciate the amount of effort you put into them. I also appreciate the debates you have about facts with others on the forum. It does not matter who is right or wrong if we learn and gain something from the process. I would say for the most part I do learn something. This for me is what the LENR-Forum is all about. It really is the right place for those kind of discussions.

The court action between LC and IH I feel should be resolved there. I strongly expected Darden and Rossi will keep their evidence, disagreements, discussions and resolutions to that legal forum. That would look professional to me and reliable. It serves no useful honest process to spill everything out on the web forums.

Like everyone, however, I am as curious interested to know the truth as the next person, for me I tend to believe one side more as you know. Others tend to believe the other side. That's normal. But the key word is tend. It's not one side against the other as no one knows directly the facts. I would say even the apparent opponents of IH in this particular scenario were very happy a year ago when we all saw them supporting LENR in general.

Like everyone as well I find the "facts" presented by Dewey and Jed interesting especially if they turn out the real facts. and the debate about their validity also interesting. I don't want to dry up that well if it generates interesting information and debate.

I did feel over whelmed by the tidal wave of comments, but I suppose it could be some kind of constructive interference from two opposing points of view where both sides hold strongly to their original view points and those views get repetitive. I guess you can recognize that situation from both sides your self.

What doesn't look good is the divide and conquere style trying to force people into two camps. Either you are for us or not, and if you are not then you are idiots or sock puppets for some other master, or pay master, and deserve all kinds of abuse. I could not believe it when I heard some saying they are keeping logs of their perceived opponents and evaluating them in some kind of threatening way. That really looks strange and uncomfortable to me. I guess and hope it was a joke of course designed to express their frustration. This aggressive style though does not look good if it officially represents either side. And affects people's perception including mine of the orginisations they represent.

The other thing that disturbs me is that it can affect people's view of LENR generally. I know you are a skeptic but I think even you would not want it to just disappear but would like to see it seriously considered and discussed.

A relatively quiet case in court would do no real harm its normal for parties in business arrangements to have legal disputes that need to be resolved in court.

Imagine, however if you had just found out about LENR now and and only just started to read these forums. You would not see all those serious discussions and debates from the past just a lot of speculation about the ecat performance and some very ugly debate beyween 2 factions. The reality of diverse and informed debate between many different opinions in the crowd would be lost? Would you be inclindto read more if you read this stuff?

Stephen