Sorry deleted due todouble post
Rossi vs IH: (Update: Sep. 9 20– James A. Bass now a Third Party in IH’s Counter Complaint)
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<a href="https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/User/441-axil/">@axil</a>,
Rossi and Penon are the ones who said the COP was 50 or more. They claimed the Plant was making 1 MWh, or sometimes 750 kWh, all day. Regardless what the GPT needed to be.
If Rossi and Pennon's math or measurements are wrong, then they cannot…I think in Exhibit 18 of the Docket there are several months worth of requests for invoice from JM Products to IH. Which claim receipt of periods of 750 kWh/h and 1MWh/h in the previous month.
Is this what you are referring to?
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This high capacity production method is the principle that high capacity tankless hot water heaters use. What Jed is assuming is that because you have a 800 hp engine, you must use 800 hp 100 percent of the time 24/7/365.
I did not make this claim. Rossi made it, as noted already by Paradigmnoia:Rossi and Penon are the ones who said the COP was 50 or more. They claimed the Plant was making 1 MWh, or sometimes 750 kWh, all day. Regardless what the GPT needed to be.
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Even if the chimney removes all of the heat from inside the machine, there will still be hundreds of kilowatts of waste heat from the walls.
Which is why double walled chimneys are typically used in practice, with the cavity being insulated.
I said the reactor walls would be hot. The machine itself would be very hot, and it would radiate into the surroundings. No matter how good the chimney is, the machine itself will heat the room to intolerably high levels without a hood. -
In real life, there is no chimney
This may well be true. I'm not sure, I haven't been.
Quite sure. The photos show no chimney. If there were a chimney, Rossi's lawyer would object to those photos.I know there's Murray's statement, but there's a few things written in that which make me dubious of his motives. He is after all a paid consultant hoping to bolster his clients case in an upcoming lawsuit in which a lot of money is at stake.
That is wrong. He was an employee, and he evaluated the test a year before the suit was filed, and found many problems. Many other people found problems. I.H. was not expecting to be sued when he wrote Exhibit 5, as far as I know. It was not a defense. Those are technical questions, not legal ones. -
I said the reactor walls would be hot.
@JED: This is a complete technical misunderstanding of the heating process! The upper temperature of the reactor is 100 + some Delta T Celsius. Only a very small part of the energy delivered is in contact with the reactor wall und does leaking out.
Steam is highly concentrated energy, which is fast moving away of the reactor...
With a reasonable isolation only 100-200kWh/day should go to the environment.Any production process will dissipate far more heat than the reactor!
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I said the reactor walls would be hot. The machine itself would be very hot, and it would radiate into the surroundings. No matter how good the chimney is, the machine itself will heat the room to intolerably high levels without a hood.
Even if the chimney removes all of the heat from inside the machine, there will still be hundreds of kilowatts of waste heat from the [reactor] walls.
It's fairly easy to model the heat loss through the reactor walls. Knowing the approximate surface area, the delta T, and assuming <100mm of isocyanate insulation, the heat loss through the walls would be around 3kW... Interestingly about the same rating as the containers aircon unit.
Re chimney photos you might be right. But please remember you are can only be referring to photos that you have seen so far. Adducing evidence from the witness box (I.E ambushing) is likely as frowned upon in the US as the UK... But there's still time for updating the court bundle though.
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Re chimney photos you might be right. But please remember you are can only be referring to photos that you have seen so far.
If there were any other photos showing chimneys or ventilation equipment, Rossi's lawyers would have posted them. As I said, if these photos were fake, incomplete, or deceptive, Rossi's lawyers would say so.I have also heard from eye witnesses, and I know there is no ventilation equipment or any other means to remove 1 MW of heat.
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Even if the chimney removes all of the heat from inside the machine, there will still be hundreds of kilowatts of waste heat from the walls.
There is a thing called insulation.
Yes, that is what I said. I said you could put the whole machine into a giant Dewar. Ordinary insulation would not suffice. But why would the JM company spend millions of dollars to do this? Ordinary methods of flushing the heat with ventilation would work perfectly well. Why would they go to elaborate lengths to hide the heat? Rossi claims they are hiding an industrial process, but why would they hide the waste heat from this process?The whole story is preposterous, because a machine that uses 1 MW of low grade heat is huge. It has to be, thanks to the Second Law. You can't use a chimney with it. It would be something like a lumber kiln, probably as big as the whole building. Like this one from Nyle Co.:
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Ordinary insulation would not suffice
It would. 100mm of poly isocyanurate would EASILY suffice. It's very, very, very simple to prove this using Fouriers Law.
But anyway, No chinmey = No Megawatt*, so it's possibly a moot point.
*Assuming the big doors at the back of the building were kept closed.
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The whole story is preposterous, because a machine that uses 1 MW of low grade heat is huge. It has to be, thanks to the Second Law.
Please elaborate on your theory behind this. I believe you'll come to the conclusion that lumber kilns are that size due to the properties of timber.
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Ordinary insulation would not suffice
It would. 100mm of poly isocyanurate would EASILY suffice. It's very, very, very simple to prove this using Fouriers Law.
Suffice for what? To keep the entire room at a comfortable temperature, so that no one notices 1 MW of heat? It has to suffice enough that the ordinary vent on the ceiling and the broken fan are all that is needed to remove the remaining waste heat that does not go up the invisible chimney. Even 50 to 100 kW of waste heat leaking out would be obvious. The air conditioner would be overworked in summer, and the cooling would never come on in winter. Imagine putting 70 electric room heaters in there.Besides, who wraps industrial equipment in insulation? Why? Have you ever seen anything like that? If you have been in a factory, commercial kitchen, or an engine room you will know it is hot and there are large blowers and hoods to remove the heat, even when the equipment consumes less than 1 MW.
Assuming the big doors at the back of the building were kept closed.
They were closed. Even with the door closed, there are photos of Rossi wearing a jacket, standing next to the reactor. -
Au Contraire, Jed, the doors were often open as shown in this photograph.
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Please elaborate on your theory behind this. I believe you'll come to the conclusion that lumber kilns are that size due to the properties of timber.
Lumber kilns come in all sizes. That company sells one you can put in your backyard, about the size of a refrigerator. However, a kiln that consumes 1 MW of heat is the size of a warehouse.See:
That's low grade heat, at ~102 deg C. A machine that uses high grade heat may be much smaller.
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Suffice for what? To keep the entire room at a comfortable temperature, so that no one notices 1 MW of heat?
Suffice to keep heat loss though the reactor walls to around 3kW.Besides, who wraps industrial equipment in insulation? Why?
Professional mechanical engineers who design equipment
Why?.... To improve efficiency, of course.
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Au Contraire, Jed, the doors were often open as shown in this photograph.
They were often closed, too, eye witnesses tell me. Why would they be open on days when Rossi was standing around with a jacket? It was cold. You close the door before you put on a jacket.The conversation is surrealistic. You cannot hide 1 MW of heat. To remove it, you cannot not use invisible chimneys and magic insulation, or a flow water about 10 times larger than this building has. You use hoods and ventilators. You have to use them. The state of Florida specifies in detail what kinds of vents, fans and hood you have to install, per square foot and per BTU of equipment. You cannot operate a facility without installing the proper ventilation equipment and having it inspected and approved. You cannot install the equivalent of three large commercial kitchens or bakeries in a warehouse of this size. The zoning would not allow it, and if there were anything like this, there would have to be several vents on the roof larger than a person. The landlord and neighbors would notice. The city would investigate.
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However, a kiln that consumes 1 MW of heat is the size of a warehouse.
They are like that size to reduce the heat intensity below the point that surface temperature/heat flux would dry the timber too quickly, in order to avoid cracking it by drying only the surface...
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Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
You'll have to trust me on this one..
I like specific and clear language. I do not "have to" trust Alan. I trust that he does not lie. What he has claimed is:QuoteHe [Penon] is planning to appear ...
This is a statement about Penon's mental state. So "trusting" Alan means what? That he knows Penon's mental state? How? Lots of possibilities:- Penon told him. This, by the way, is not conclusive, a careful representation would be "Penon said that ...."
- Penon told someone else, who Alan has communicated with, knowing a chain of testimony which Alan assesses as sound.
- Alan heard it on the grapevine and believes it.
There are more possibilities, such as "Alan is blowing smoke, this is just his idea." That isn't lying.
In the absence of any specific evidence, I leave all possibilities open. Because the non-appearance of Penon is supported by the lack of a formal appearance, where waiving service would gain time, appearance is less likely. All he would have had to do would have been to give permission to the attorney who temporarily represented the other third-party defendants to also appear on his behalf. But it is certainly still possible that he has a "plan to appear." If he can overcome the fear, if someone gives him enough money, if it is a blue moon on Thursday, or he already has the money set aside for plane tickets.
He may also have told Rossi he will appear. Or someone else. One of the issues is that criminal fraud charges could arise at any time.
Jed commonly reveals information he has from sources that he cannot disclose. He simply says so. The fact that I derive from this is that what he says was related or conveyed to him. Legal principle: testimony is presumed true unless controverted.
QuoteI will make a further prediction which it actually guesswork in part. But I'm not telling you which part.
Cute.QuoteIt is about something that currently seems impossible - and it may well be - courts are a lottery at times. Rossi has changed Lawyers to a practice with experience in technical matters in order to present -when the opportunity arises - technical proof that the 1MW plant is real and it works. This proof will (I think) be in the form of one or more totally independent replications of the technology by serious entities.
And now I know not to trust Alan's judgment.A totally independent replication or even irrefutable demonstration would have zero effect on Rossi v. Darden. I think Alan doesn't read what I write, which is his sovereign privilege, but if he doesn't understand this, he does not understand the case.
The "Rossi Effect" is not on trial in this case. What is "the 1 MW plant" that would be tested independently by "serious entities"? And how would the function of that plant relate to the actual performance of the plant(s) in Doral?
The primary question in Rossi v. Darden is not whether or not the plant "worked"! The initial and fundamental question is whether or not Doral was a "GPT." If it was not, if it was merely a sale of power and even if power were real and actually sold, Rossi would have no right to payment. Not yet, at least.
There is a fog around all this that confuses many. If the Doral plant actually worked as claimed, which looks quite unlikely (starting with the warehouse-calorimeter appearance), Rossi still, it seems likely, did not show IH how to make devices that worked when independently tested (by them, which is what counts for them!). If he does show that IP to someone else, how would this remedy the failure with IH?
One of the elements of the IH defense is that technology transfer failure. Even if Rossi now remedies it, even if IH then verifies the technology, the original payment deadline would be invalid, and what would have to be done would be to set up a real GPT as contractually required.
If Rossi actually has that proof, IH would hasten to accommodate him! -- or they would waive the test and just give him the effing money, which they could, at this point, with proof they can show investors, easily raise.
QuoteBut we will have to wait and see what happens
Wait for what? I observe what I observe. Most of the universe is invisible to me. Some of what I have not yet seen I can predict, with varying degrees of precision. That's life.The claim that he is planning to appear is of interest, but minor. Penon's appearance, my assessment, is likely to benefit IH more than Rossi.
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They are like that size to reduce the heat intensity below the point that surface temperature/heat flux would dry the timber too quickly, in order to avoid cracking it by drying only the surface...
You misunderstand. Kilns come in all sizes. Small ones the size of a refrigerator consumes a kilowatt or so, I think. From the specs on this site. A kiln that consumes 1 MW would be huge, the size of a building. If it were any smaller, it would not need that much heat.It would have be something like a kiln, rather than a baking oven for cooking or curing plastic or some other industrial process, because the temperature is so low. There are not many uses for a continuous flow of ~102 deg C wet steam. The only thing that comes to my mind is a wood kiln. They operate at 100 deg C.
Space heating is another use for low grade heat. You could heat an entire shopping mall with 1 MW. In Florida, you only need that capacity for a month or so every year.
