sigmoidal Member
  • Member since Oct 31st 2016

Posts by sigmoidal

    Since 2017 will likely be the drama filled year Rossi is exposed, I've been thinking of immortalizing the event in a crowd-sourced musical, entitled: "The Wizard of Roz".


    I've got some ideas for casting and one of the songs, but would welcome crowd-sourced help with following scenes and songs. I thought I'd share this seed on New Years Eve.


    Opening scene to "The Wizard of Roz":
    A 'tornado' of media buzz results in a mysterious shipping container in Italy spiraling into the sky and landing with a thump in North Carolina. There, Dorothy (played by Thomas Darden) and her dog Toto (JT Vaughn) attempt to get the shipping container to take them to the land of clean, cheap energy. However, after multiple failed attempts to get any energy out of the shipping container, they seek the counsel and advice of the container's designer, the Wizard of Roz (Andrea Rossi). An eccentric wizard, Roz tinkers and tinkers, but can't seem to get any energy out of the shipping container. Meanwhile, Dorothy gets on her bicycle with Toto in the basket, seeking others who can help pay for her trip to the land of clean, cheap energy.


    Meanwhile, the wizard flies through the sky to visit the Witch of the South (played by Henry Johnson). Together, they develop a spell causing Dorothy to loose her faculties and agree to ship the container to be operated by the Wizard and Witch. After some time, Dorothy comes to her senses and realizes her error. Gathering her throng of helpers (Jones Day), they march down the road to the south, breaking into song:


    We're off to sue the Wizard,
    the fraudulant Wizard of Roz.
    Because, because, because, because, because:
    Because of the fraudulant things he does!
    (Doo doo deh-doo doo deh-doot)


    We're off to sue the Wizard,
    the fraudulant Wizard of Roz!


    Dorothy: Toto, I don't think we're in North Carolina any more.


    (Happy New Year all!)

    BTW, if the court does not grant Rossi's motion to allow the late response he's at serious risk of being successfully sued, potentially for the 11.5 million, IH legal fees, and possibly even triple damages. IH may find it owns more Florida condos then it ever wanted. I wonder if Rossi has purchased his ticket to bolt the US, and where his bolt hole might to be?

    Gosh, this was actually easy to read. Didn't need a flow chart to understand like 95. Judge granted Rossi more time to respond. IH disagreed with Rossi's reasoning, and excuses for the request. End of story.


    I don't believe the judge has ruled yet on whether to accept Rossi/Annesser's motion to accept their late response, and I don't think this is the 'End of Story' (yet). That ruling by the judge would have to show up on Pacer explicitly granting the motion.


    In general, I would think the judge would allow Rossi/Annesser the extra time, since it was only two days late. But we do learn a bit more from these documents, and I don't think this is favorable to Rossi.


    Here's where I come to the conclusion that the judge has not ruled yet from the filings:

    • In 95, the judge ruled 'without prejudice' to deny the motion because it did not include a draft ruling for the judge that explicitly states the ruling that Rossi/Annesser hope for. We know from 96 that this is standard procedure based on 'local laws'. What this means is that when you file this kind of motion, you are also supposed to write up the hoped for ruling that you would like the judge to grant. There are (at least) two good reasons for this: 1) it makes it explicit exactly what the party filing the motion is hoping for, and 2) it saves time for the judge, since they can either grant the motion as stated, modify the text of the proposed motion and accept that, or deny the motion. BTW, 'without prejudice' means that the judge is not ruling for or against the content of the motion - the court is simply rejecting it because it is incomplete because it does not include the required draft of the hoped for ruling.
    • (I believe 97 is unrelated to this motion, as it seems to be a ruling on discovery and involves a different judge. We don't know what happened here as the transcript is not available yet and there is no further information.)
    • 98 is Rossi/Annesser's draft ruling that they didn't include before but now have included so that they have a chance of their motion not being denied as matter of local procedural law. In it they briefly summarize the motion and then conclude with the hoped for ruling:
    • Annesser proposes that the court grant the following ruling: "The Court has reviewed the Motion and has determined that Plaintiffs have demonstrated adequate grounds to permit filing the Answer [D.E. 89] after the time had expired. Therefore, it is hereby ORDERED and ADJUDGED that 1) the motion is GRANTED and 2) Plaintiff's ANSWER [DE89] shall be deemed filed as of December 14, 2016. DONE and ORDERED..."

    Note that this [document 98] is Rossi/Annesser's hoped for ruling, not the judges actual ruling, which we have not yet seen. That's why I don't think the judge has ruled yet.
    But there is more to be learned from document 99:


    99 Is IH's objections to Rossi/Annesser's motion to grant them extra time so that their answer can be included. Here I've abbreviated IH's objections:

    • Paragraph 2: "...[Rossi/Annesser AKA 'Plaintiffs'] propose 'excusable neglect' [as an excuse] for their untimely answer ... [this] is fatally flawed and erroneously attempts to attribute the source of their error to Industrial Heat and IPH. ..shifting blame is not excusable neglect, or even good cause...
    • Paragraph 3: "Plaintiffs claim that [IH] did not have permission from the Court to file their Third Amended Answer. But, as Plaintiffs know, Defendants clearly had such permission from the Court’s October 14, 2016 Order, which stated that “Defendants shall have seven (7) days from the Court’s order on Plaintiffs’ Motion to Dismiss …[D.E. 67]
    • Paragraph 4: "Plaintiffs suggest that the 3rd Amended AACT exceeded the scope of the Court’s October 14 Order. Motion at 2 & n.1. But the 3rd Amended AACT reflects precisely what the Court directed [IH to do] in the October 14 Order" [with specific citations provided showing that IH did indeed respond 'precisely' to what the court ordered]
    • Paragraph 5: "Plaintiffs’ position that they thought the 3rd Amended AACT was a “nullity” and therefore “did not believe that a response to the [3rd Amended AACT]... cannot be accurate. On November 29, Plaintiffs moved for additional time to answer the 3rd Amended AACT. In that motion, they noted that the 3rd Amended AACT was filed on November 23 and their answer, absent an extension, was due on November 30. D.E. 80, 81. If Plaintiffs believed the 3rd Amended AACT was somehow a nullity, this would have been reflected in their November 29 motion. It was not so reflected because Plaintiffs never believed that the 3rd Amended AACT was a nullity, but in fact admitted that they were required to answer the 3rd Amended AACT. D.E. 80, 81." [Ouch!!]
    • Paragraph 6: "Fourth, in light of the foregoing, Plaintiffs had no basis to believe that they “had fourteen (14) days from this Court’s acceptance of the [3rd Amended AACT] in which to file” their answer to the 3rd Amended AACT. Motion at 2-3. They admitted back on November 29 that their answer was due the following day, November 30, when they asked the Court for additional time to answer. The Court granted Plaintiffs such additional time on November 29, but only to “seven (7) days from the Court’s order on Third-Party Defendants’ Motion to Dismiss.” D.E. 82. Plaintiffs admit in the Motion that they knew the “Order referred to in the Court’s November 29, 2016 Order was entered on December 5.” Motion at 2. Therefore, they knew that their answer was due December 12. [Double Ouch!]
    • Paragraph 7:"Undersigned informed Plaintiffs’ counsel on December 13, 2016 that Plaintiffs had not answered the 3rd Amended AACT by the required deadline. Plaintiffs filed their answer the following day."


    So according to IH, they were the ones alerting Rossi/Annesser that they had not filed their response in the required time(!) But in Rossi/Annesser's response they give other reasons (we were busy, we didn't know we were supposed to, etc.)


    In summary, IH argues, citing directly from the filings and the court ruling themselves, that Rossi/Annesser's story about reasons for filing the motion doesn't hold true. Although IH's arguments are obviously put forth to support their case, even if the judge grants the motion but is persuaded by IH's that Rossi/Annesser's motion included untrue statements, Rossi/Annesser will take a credibility hit.


    In any case, Annesser looks either untruthful or not very competent as a lawyer. And the lack of evidence from Rossi's side looks pretty ridiculous to me. The biggest question in my mind is how long does Rossi want to keep pursuing a lost cause?


    I had a few minutes to look at this today. BTW, Merry Christmas everyone!.


    I think Eric summed it up nicely. Rossi and his lawyer Annesser failed to file their response on time (Document 89), so this document (95) is their excuses and plea for forgiveness. As a legal document, it's fairly straight forward. Here's a quick analysis:


    In paragraphs 1 through 5 Annesser (Rossi's lawyer) summarizes the events leading up to IH's submission of the third amended counterclaims.


    Then in 6, Annesser states "Believing that the Third Amended Counterclaims and Third Party Claims were a nullity ... Defendants [meaning Rossi/Annesser] did not believe that a response to the Third Amended Counterclaim [submitted by IH] was required."


    7 Simply makes the point that the court entered an order on Dec. 5th, regarding IH's third amended answer.


    Then in 8 we learn for sure what this is all about: "In light of the Court’s recognition of the Third Amended Counterclaim [by IH] on December 5, 2016, Plaintiffs [Rossi/Anmesser] believed, perhaps mistakenly, that Plaintiffs had fourteen (14) days from this Court’s acceptance of the Third Amended Counterclaim in which to file their Response..."


    9 States that they were unsure of the exact due date but made it their goal an intention to file their response by Dec. 12.


    The main excuse comes in 10: "Due to a confluence of other deadlines and scheduling issues, as well as due to the length and complexity of the facts alleged, Plaintiffs were unable to complete their Response by December 12, 2016, and on December 14, 2016 Plaintiffs filed their Answer and Affirmative Defenses to Defendants IH and IPH’s Third Amended Answer...(D.E. 89)."


    11, 12 and 13, in brief, say essentially 'we tried diligently and acted in good faith'.


    In 14 they hope the judge agrees that the two day delay should not be a big deal: "Plaintiffs’ note the relatively small nature of the delay, and do not believe judicial proceedings will be negatively impacted, or that any party has been unduly prejudiced."


    And in 15 we learn that IH is objecting to their request/plea for giving the extra 2 days: "Undersigned counsel has communicated with counsel for Defendants, who object to the requested relief."


    I think the main take away from this is Rossi/Annesser continue to look like amateurs compared to IH's big league pro team. I would expect that the judge would give them leniency and allow their filing. But since Rossi's affirmative defense (if allowed) is so lame, I'm not sure how helpful this is.


    I remain amazed at what we learned from Rossi's Affirmative Defenses, that he is trying to make the case that the Term Sheet, which is explicitly a Rental Agreement, was subsequently agreed by IH to be the GPT.


    So probably the judge will give them a pass and accept their response. But what a lame response!


    Well, it is somewhat entertaining, especially if you like tragedies.


    Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!

    sigmoidal wrote:
    [Jesse] Jackson famously once said...


    That was Amos and Andy, a famously racist program. If you meant that as a joke, it wasn't a bit funny.


    Jed, thank you for alerting me to this. After checking, I see my source was not reliable. I apologize for the misattribution, and for any offense it may have caused. I also have edited my post to remove this, as I don't want to perpetuate error. Jed, if you agree, could you remove the balance of your quote of my post? Hopefully this will help reduce the potential for subsequent misattribution.

    Last I checked, I am definitely not Abd, but who knows what might happen in the future :) .


    Seriously, to his credit, Abd (usually) tried to be far more objective than I when weighing arguments. That takes mental work that I'm too lazy to do, but it made his comments more interesting. (Occasionally he fell into grumpy old man mode - but who can blame him? I get grumpy and I'm not that old!)


    I do take your comment as a compliment though.


    In any case, in the short time I've been here and read responses by Abd and others, I've learned a lot.


    I'm thankful for that.

    From Rossi's response, here is the entirety of Affirmative Defense No. 4


    Quote

    Affirmative Defense No. 4:


    Counter-Plaintiffs’ claims are barred by the doctrine of ratification. Counter-Plaintiffs, prior to the selection of Fabio Penon as the ERV, and prior to agreeing to the Term Sheet, had knowledge as to the facts and circumstances to which they now complain. (DE 78: ¶ 8, 69 -71, 73-75). Despite having this knowledge Counter-Plaintiffs’ allowed Counter-Defendants to continue to conduct a year-long test of the E-Cat technology, knowing all along they were goingto use these same facts as an excuse not to fulfill their own contractual obligations.


    As is obvious from my previous post, I find this reveals an astounding lack of evidence on Rossi's part. If he had any evidence, I would expect a response along the lines of:


    "Doctrine of Ratification: Despite prior knowledge of the signed GPT agreement (see Exhibit XX), the terms of which were negotiated before commencement of the test (see Exhibit YY, containing drafts and email exchanges regarding the GPT agreement terms), Counter-Defendants complain and assert breach of contract (in IH's 3rd amended response DE 78: etc.), (which violates the Doctrine of Ratification)."


    Instead, we have; "...prior to agreeing to the Term Sheet, [IH] had knowledge as to the facts and circumstances to which they now complain."


    But the reference to IH's 3rd amended response, DE 78 ¶ 8, 69 -71,73-75 does not seem particularly helpful to Rossi's case. Here is the relevant excerpts from IH's response in line 71 and 75 (sentences 69, 70, 74 and 75 just deny Rossi's allegations and don't provide any other insight):

    Quote

    ...73. Defendants note that there were many flaws in how the purported Guaranteed Performance test referenced in Paragraph 71 was performed. Several, but by no means all, of those flaws were identified in a document provided to Penon on March 25, 2016. A copy of this document is attached hereto as Exhibit 5.


    And 75:

    Quote


    ...75. Defendants deny that the test referenced in Paragraph 73 was the Guaranteed Performance to be performed under the License Agreement. Defendants state that Penon’s report speaks for itself, and therefore deny any allegations in Paragraph 73 inconsistent therewith. Defendants deny Plaintiffs’ allegations in Paragraph 73 regarding the amount of energy produced by the Plant during the testing period; see Ex. 1.


    So Rossi is trying to make a defense that IH already knew that the purported GPT wasn't going to work, then references the section where IH denies that there even was any GPT agreement, documents the flaws in the 'test' (exhibit 5), and states that IH allowed the one year test to go on even though they had agreed to the Term Sheet. This seems like a contorted argument. And further, the Term Sheet Rossi references in Defense #4 (which is exhibit 17) says absolutely nothing about a GPT, any protocol, any minimum performance, etc.


    The Term Sheet is an E-Cat rental agreement that states what rent payments would be made to IH (owner of the E-Cat) from JMP based on output, what personnel would be involved, and what rights of entry and protections (trade secret protection, insurance, revocation, etc.) IH had.


    And then in defense 13, Rossi claims that IH engaged in "conduct and oral agreements with respect to the methodologies and actual equipment being tested", upon which they "now seek to their claims of both non-performance and breach". Again, this shows that Rossi is unable to cite any document to support his defense, and so asserts IH's 'conduct and oral agreements'.


    Is the rationale behind this defense that IH is complaining about the non-performance and breach of a test that IH does not recognize as a test? I suppose this might be a defense against the counter-claim damages.


    But as others have noted, Rossi's assertion that the one year test was an agreed upon GPT has no evidence to support it except 'Rossi says'.


    Yes, it will be interesting to see if the judge decides there are 'facts' that need to be established by jury decision in order to rule on this case. I suspect that there are at least some disputed facts that, assuming no settlement, the judge would defer to jury trial. If so, this may take awhile.

    Rossi has spoken. We now have his case, in broad terms, and there is a whopper 'hidden' in the middle.


    In the first part of his response, Rossi responds to IH's allegations. This is the longer section because IH put forth so many allegations.


    Rossi's response in this first part can be summarized [edited by me, sigmoidal, to remove misattribution] as denying all alegations.


    As such, there is not much to be learned in this first section.


    The next section contains Rossi's affirmative defenses. This is where Rossi asserts his version of why IH is wrong. This is much more informative, as it reveals the case Rossi would try to make to a jury, should the case ever make it that far. Rossi makes 14 such affirmative defenses. I am not a lawyer, but nonetheless I've attempted to summarize them here as I understand them, and briefly opine on their merits. If you'd like to skip to the good part, see 4) below.


    1) Voluntary payment. I understand this to essentially mean: "Since IH paid the 11.5 Million to Rossi voluntarily, it's Rossi's. IH doesn't have any basis for getting it back." This might be true if there were no violations of contractual terms, and if there were no fraud. However, IH laid out numerous contractual failings for the 10 million, at least. IH will have to prove breaches of contract, but if successful, I don't see how this defense can be successful for anything but the initial 1.5 million payment.


    2)Estoppel, waiver and laches. Here Rossi claims that IH fraudulently induced him into the contract with no ability or intent to pay. This gets to the heart of Rossi's story. He's going to try to make the case that he was suckered into the deal assuming IH had the ability to pay. And he's going to try to make the case that the reason IH is counter suing him and making all these 'false claims' against him is that from the beginning, they never intended to pay, and in any case could not pay him. He then specifically gives an example regarding the 'secret sauce' and Rossi and Cook's scientific article.


    This example regarding Cook's publication seems to me to be an absurd defense, since their agreement clearly assigned all rights to IH, limited Rossi on disclosure, while not limiting IH disclosure in any way.


    He then claims estoppel, saying that IH understood that the 1 year test was indeed a GPT, behaved that way, and only objected at the end as part of their clever scheme since they never intended to pay.


    No evidence to support this is provided.


    3) Unclean Hands. IH "never had the means, nor the intention..." to pay. No evidence provided.


    Although this seems like a weak defense, it might be the best one Rossi has. However, this is unlikely to succeed, because we know from their tax filings that they had (and presumably still have) 50 Million available. While not the full amount, given their history, it seems unlikely that a jury would conclude that they couldn't raise the additional 39 Million. Further, Rossi sued them before any payment could have been due, had his version of the story been true.


    4) Ratification. Rossi states that "prior to agreeing to the Term Sheet, IH had knowledge as to the facts and circumstances to which they now complain".


    This short and simple Affirmative Defense is actually the most interesting Affirmative Defense of them all!


    Why? Because it shows us that he really is making the absurdly ridiculous assertion that the Term Sheet is the GPT agreement! Now we finally know for sure. He really is going to try to make this case that he rightfully should receive the 89 Million payment based on the Term Sheet. This is so informative because it reveals that there is no other document for a GPT! If there were another document, he would have certainly referred to it in this Affirmative Defense No. 4 (or elsewhere). But he doesn't. This is remarkable. I think this the clearest evidence yet that Rossi is insane. We know he himself presented this Term Sheet agreement as a "masterpiece" to IH when he created it - it seems he believed his own lies!


    I think the Term Sheet as GPT agreement "speaks for itself" as Rossi (or Annesser) frequently says in this response. But it needed any further context, IH has provided it in their response and counter-claims.


    5) Antecedent breach. IH demands for E-Cat licenses were made prior to final payment


    I'm not sure how relevant this is, since there are no E-Cats to license or sell. In any case, the 10M payment was for the IP, with IH claiming Rossi didn't deliver, or didn't work (or both).


    6) No 'certificate of authority' for a foreign corporation.


    Now we're well into the "throw everything on the wall to see if anything sticks" territory.


    7) Acquiescence. Reference 2 above.


    ibid. Why try to make this point twice? I would think this makes Annesser look sloppy.


    8 ) Judicial estoppel. IH asserts Leonardo lacks standing, but IH is suing Leonardo.


    Well, maybe... But they're also suing Rossi individually. One or the other (or both) are getting sued.


    9) Lack of Capacity. IPH has the rights, not IH.


    Here is the defense we could anticipate from Rossi's Motions To Dismiss: IH is not IPH and can't bring suit.


    More 'see what sticks' (SWS)?


    10) Merger and Integration. More SWS


    11) Failure to Mitigate Damages. Here we see Rossi alleging that IH did not take any steps to mitigate damage even though they "knew well before Feb 15, 2016 that Rossi and Leonardo could not achieve GPT"


    This might be an effective defense if there was a credible signed GPT document. But now we know that Rossi is asserting that the Term Sheet IS the GPT agreement. Good luck with that! Also, in order for this defense to prevail, it would need to be true that 'Leonardo could not achieve GPT'. If this defense succeeds, isn't that a pyrrhic victory of sorts? I.e "You're wrong because you knew this GPT was a scam long ago". Maybe this is the Bob Dylan "If you ain't got nothin', you got nothin' to loose" defense.


    12) Recoupment and Set Off. Argument to limit damages IH should receive from Rossi (if any) due to 'prior breaches' (by IH) of the license.


    13) Modification. IH's 'conduct and oral agreements' agreed to a year-long test which they are now claiming breach and non-performance.


    This seems like a repeat of 2) above. In any case, it confirms that there was no written GPT. This defense just confirms the most important information (Defense #4) regarding this entire response.


    14) Promissory Estoppel. This sounds more like a summary then a new defense. It repeats defenses 2, 3, 4, 7, 11, and 13, some of which are repeats themselves (7, 13). To me this makes Annesser look flailing and clumsy.


    Finally, there is information in what does NOT exist in the defenses. For instance, there is no allegation that IH accepted payment for any of the heat per the Term Sheet. If they had accepted payment, surely Rossi would have used this as evidence that they agreed to the Term Sheet. But he does not.


    Abd postulated a Wabbit in order to make contingencies on conclusions, given the lack of information. Actually, I think he would agree that there are two wabbit contingencies: 1) A signed, valid GPT (not Term Sheet) is a definite wabbit; 2) A real JMP company using real heat to make a real product is another wabbit.


    Of these, Abd argued, and I agree, that really the first is the only one that matters legally in this court case. What Rossi's response shows is that there is no wabbit #1. We don't really need to provide that contingency any more. Rossi has no hope of winning this case. At this point, it seems it's only a matter of how badly he loses the case (damages paid to IH).


    From my perspective, we now know that Rossi has no realistic hope of prevailing in this legal action.


    Wabbit #2 would be a nearly incomprehensible win for LENR and mankind generally.


    Sadly, I believe this response by Rossi makes the probability of wabbit #2 existing at least an order of magnitude less likely than the already minuscule probability of before.



    P.S. Abd, I for one, miss your commentary. It would be much higher quality than mine.

    There was supposed to have been a discovery session(?) last Monday, Dec. 6th.


    Also, I believe Rossi had a dead line of today to provide a response (answer) to the counter suit.


    Is there any news on either of these? <img src="https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/wcf/images/smilies/confused.png" alt="?(" />


    From the latest filing posted at Abd's site, Rossi requested a hearing regarding IH discovery requests, and that hearing, scheduled by the court, is at 3pm Dec. 20.


    I'm not an expert, but I believe that this effectively buys time for Rossi, as he will not be required to respond to IH's discovery requests until the judge hears his questions and/or objections, and rules on them. Then the court will probably give him some additional time (like a week or two) to produce based on the court's decision. And then he could probably ask for more time ( e.g. 1 or 2 more weeks) after that. However, if he continues to try to keep delaying in mid-January, the court will likely loose patience and start reigning him in.


    This assumes that he is trying to delay, which is merely my speculation. There are a lot of other legitimate reasons for the hearing, and we won't know the content of the hearing itself until months afterward (if at all), unless someone wants to show up in FL for it and post here (hint, hint).


    What we will be able to see on that date or shortly after is the court's ruling on the hearing. These tend to be terse, however, so it's not clear how much we will learn from the court's ruling.


    The really interesting thing we are waiting for is Rossi's written response to IH's counterclaim suit. In other words, we'll get to read Rossi's story (in general terms) describing his defense in response to IH's suit (AKA counter-claims). We already have some hints about his response from his Motions To Dismiss. For example, Rossi has asserted that both IH and IPH (IH holding company) lack standing to counter-sue. We can expect that he will re-assert this as part of his defense, but this is not particularly interesting or enlightening. What is more interesting is how he plans to defend himself against the accusations of fraud, the evidence he has that JMP is a 'real' company, and most importantly, his narrative regarding the GPT. Will he assert that IH fully embraced the one-year test as the GPT? If so, he'll have to describe the evidence supporting that assertion in general terms (at least). That should be interesting. If he fails to defend the test as a GPT, I don't see how he can proceed with his case, but more importantly, he would be exposed to damages in the IH counter-suit.


    I suppose Rossi could base his entire defense on IPH/IH lacking standing to counter-sue. That would seem to me to be a very risky strategy that would likely fail. But it would allow him to not take a position on the GPT, or respond to the fraud claims, which may then give him some slight leverage to settle without him having to expose himself. But I don't think IH is up for that - I think that because Rossi sued them, they are highly motivated to 'crush the test', as Abd speculates, with little else to gain from this debacle, and nothing to loose but attorney expenses. If that's true, I wouldn't be surprised if Rossi 'goes missing' to some 'super secret' location in 2017, so he can carry on his beloved conversations with himself and his sock puppets.


    From my (admittedly biased) perspective, I think he's really in a tight corner at this point. But until we actually read Rossi's response, it's mere speculation.


    We should know a lot more by the end of the year, or mid-January at the latest.

    Also, a clarification. The reason I brought up the North Carolina DHHS report was twofold: 1) I think it's relevant to Alan's question regarding why it has taken IH so long for IH to address their contractual concerns about Rossi, and 2) I've been curious as to why Abd has not included this in the timeline characterizing the IH/Rossi relationship going south.


    My answer to Alan is that I believe the evidence shows that IH was fully aware of serious concerns about Rossi in 2014, but for various reasons, especially including the term sheet for heat to JMP, IH chose to 'play it cool', both for financial and PR reasons.


    I think that it's very likely that IH would simply have quietly walked away from any further expectations from Rossi (other than holding onto his IP), leaving Rossi with the 11.5M, had he not sued IH.


    11.5M is a pretty nice retirement package for a nutty con man.


    But then, there's the nut.


    Regarding 2), Abd has clearly indicated that he doesn't find the DHHS report significant, so now I know why he doesn't include it. (Obviously, I have a different perspective on this).


    Again, in any case, it should be pretty interesting to read his response to IH counter-claims. He is required to lay out in broad terms (at least) what his story is. And no sock puppets will be allowed in the courtroom!

    Vaughn is a lawyer? I've been seeing this, an assumption that IH principals are "lawyers." Rossi ejected Dewey Weaver from an early demonstration at the IH facility with something like "get that lawyer out of here." Lawyer apparently equals "bad" in some circles. But lawyers are the most professionally careful thinkers we have. Someone who is truly against the presence of lawyers is probably disliking careful thinking. (Of course, there are unethical lawyers, etc, but ... no profession is perfect.)


    My mistake due to my sometimes feeble memory: Darden has a law degree from Yale. I must have confused this with Vaughn. So only one of the two principals is a lawyer. I agree that effective lawyers have to be careful thinkers, but my point goes beyond that. Lawyers have more to loose than (most) non-lawyers if caught making untrue statements because they can be disbarred, and or worse if the dishonesty occurs within a legal context. But since it was Vaughn rather than Darden who made the statement to the NC DHHS, that does reduce the 'risk' to Vaughn about his characterization that Rossi was not credible. He's just the vice-president of IH, after all, so why not mis-characterize Rossi (tongue-planted-in-cheek)?


    I respectfully disagree with you that this NC DHHS report with the specific statement that Vaughn characterized Rossi as 'not credible' was in your words 'essentially meaningless'. In fact, I give it more weight because its coming from a government official who is merely writing up an incident report. Rossi's hysterical response looks to me like it hit a sore spot, most likely _because it was true_. I know this is reading between the lines, but it seems to me more likely that the NC DHHS used measured language regarding Rossi, since it was not central to the conclusion in the report that there was "nothing to see here, move along", so to speak. But hey, that's just my opinion.


    Regarding Rossi's about face on radioactive emissions. He stated before 2012 that there were radioactive emissions. And his reactor has lead shielding. What is all that lead for if there are no radioactive emissions? If there are radioactive emissions which is what he and Levy claim to have measured in 2010, then he has been illegally operating a device (and according to his blog he's also been 'manufacturing' 3 or 11 e-Cats depending on which of his accounts you read). Either way this seems to confirm that Rossi is 'not credible'.


    BTW, though I am new posting here, I am not new to Rossi's e-Cat story. I've been following this story on and off since 2009. It took me almost four years to come to the conclusion that Rossi is either nuts or a con man or both. So yes, I have come to my conclusions - when Rossi did the immediate 'about face' after the Florida 'inspection' (2012), that sealed the deal for me. In any case, I too have been pouring over a lot of evidence over the years. Which, given the other things I could have been spending my time doing, is somewhat embarrassing.


    In any case, I do think you (Abd) have done a remarkable job of carefully piecing together the most plausible narrative on IH's perspective. And I recognize that as a kind of thought experiment, you've attempted to explore a coherent narrative where Rossi is not operating fraudulently, even if you might suspect otherwise. Quite an ambitious task, I believe!

    Regarding evidence that Penon and Fabiani (sole proprietor of USQL) were being paid (or at least attempting to be paid) by IH, it is alleged by IH in their countersuit. From the most recent filing (3rd amendment) page 52, paragraph 92:


    Quote

    Not surprisingly, since the day he left Florida in February 2016, Penon has refused to discuss his measurements, his measurement plan and design, or his report with Counter-Plaintiffs (though he has requested that Counter-Plaintiffs pay him for his work).


    and page 66, paragraph 166:

    Quote

    These breaches have deprived Industrial Heat of the benefit of its bargain with USQL and Fabiani, led to Industrial Heat paying USQL and Fabiani for services not rendered, deprived Industrial Heat of property that is its property per the USQL Agreement, and prevented Industrial Heat from learning of the deceptive scheme as alleged above.

    I'm new here, so forgive me if everyone in this discussion already knows this, but one item that has not been brought up in this discussion is the documented evidence that IH (Vaughn) did not consider Rossi credible as of December of 2014.


    This is according the report filed by Brady Crowe of the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services in response to a complaint filed that nuclear devices were potentially being produced at IH without proper permits. For reference, see a copy of this government document here: http://freeenergyscams.com/wp-…2015/02/NCDHHS-Report.pdf (this is the first link that came up in Google, so I don't want to imply that I 'endorse' this site).* The key excerpt from this report:


    Quote

    Louis Brayboy and I met with Mr. JT Vaughn at 11:00 A.M. [Dec. 11, 2014] from Industrial Heat, LLC. 111 East Hargett Street Suite 300 Raleigh, NC 27601, on an unannounced inspection and asked him about the E-CAT conceptual model, if radiological materials were on hand, if Mr. Andrea Rossi was available or would be able at a later date. He stated that the E-CAT was being manufactured in Florida and that Mr. Rossi did not appear credible (paraphrase)and that there was a building that he had planned to work at for Research and Development located at 6025 Triangle Drive, Raleigh, NC.


    Abd, doesn't it make sense to fit this into the timeline of your posited scenario? Assuming Vaughn was sincere when characterizing Rossi as "not credible" when talking with the NC DHHS (and as a lawyer and principal at IH, he would be risking a lot by being insincere), we can conclude that by the end of 2014, after working with him, IH had little to no confidence in Rossi. They apparently had little hope of getting any value from Rossi, whom they had paid $11.5M to, despite (or possibly as a result of) having entered into the 'steam energy rental' with JMP in August of 2014.


    Assuming all this, the timing gets interesting. Let's say that some time in the first half of 2014, IH started having serious doubts about Rossi, as they had not had any success demonstrating anomalous heat. Rossi, sensing IH's frustration cooks up the July 2014 'urgent' proposal of selling heat to JMP (a 'masterpiece'). Perhaps at this point in the summer of 2014, IH is thinking Rossi is more likely to be a 'quack' then 'con man', but they just don't know for sure. In response to the FL/JMP 'urgent' proposal, they think about it and figure that they have nothing significant to loose, and if it's real, they risk missing out on the opportunity because of the 'urgent' nature.


    However, once they sign the term sheet, it does result in what seems to me to be an awkward situation for IH. We know that by Dec. 2014 Vaughn states that he does not consider Rossi credible. However, they are getting payments for heat from JMP (even as they are sending payments to Penon and Fabiani). They are not in a position to publicly 'move on' after failure with Rossi, yet they have little confidence that he has anything of value.


    This does fit with Abd's well articulated and thought out characterization of IH deciding they were willing to risk the 11.5M to get to the bottom of the E-Cat, either positive or negatively. And also, it explains Rossi's highly creative behaviors (JMP creation, comments on JONP, sock puppets there and elsewhere, etc.) to resist the efforts of IH to reach and publicize any final conclusion.


    This tension could only go on so long, however. Now, ironically due to Rossi's suit, IH has essentially laid out all their cards on the table in the court documents.


    Rossi has one week before he too must lay down his hand, under threat of perjury.


    It will be very interesting to see what happens next week!


    *BTW, this was the second complaint filed to a state agency about Rossi's "nuclear" activities. The other one, in 2012 was in Florida. Within a day or two after this complaint was filed, Rossi changed his story in JONP and elsewhere, and also in his response to FL officials, declaring that there was no nuclear reactions occurring in the E-Cat. This was contrary to dozens of statements where he asserted nuclear reactions were occurring prior to this date. Furthermore, what is the point of all the lead (Pb) shielding if no nuclear reactions are occurring? And if they are occurring, where are the FL and NC permits allowing Rossi to manufacture and operate E-Cats?

    Quote from sigmoidal: “In any case, it seems premature for Rossi (really his lawyers assuming they are giving him council) to try to bring suit against IH in court about patent applications before any has been granted.”


    It is more a title dispute,…


    OK, I didn't realize the judge already tossed that. Again, thanks for clarifying.
    That being the case, it seems that for me the most interesting issue is whether there is any validity to the the customer utilizing an alleged 1MW, or whether it really was a remarkably elaborate scam (aka masterpiece).
    With the information we have right now, it seems 20 to 1 scam (or higher). I hope I'm wrong.
    Time will hopefully tell.

    <a href="https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/User/2076-sigmoidal/">@sigmoidal</a>


    The question goes to whether Rossi assigned ownership rights to IH, or whether he just licensed his tech to IH. There is no valid assignment clause in the contract. The contract both expressly and implicitly indicates a license, not an assignment…


    Ok, thanks for clarifying, I didn't realize that Rossi was named in the IH patent application.
    In any case, it seems premature for Rossi (really his lawyers assuming they are giving him council) to try to bring suit against IH in court about patent applications before any has been granted. I would think they could anticipate that the judge would simply dismiss this claim until (and if) an application is actually granted, no? Again, I'm pretty sure there is case law applicable to this situation. Obviously the 89M is the main point. Maybe they're just throwing everything out there to see what sticks. I'm not sure that's the best recipe for success, however.

    <a href="https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/User/2076-sigmoidal/">@sigmoidal</a>


    As I see you are new here, it might be beneficial to bring you up to date on some of the baggage between Jed and me. Jed often exaggerates or states things that are not correct. I often point these out to him. He doesn't take it well. …


    Got it.
    I guess that partially answers my question #2. Regarding #1, thanks for fixing the attribution. Regarding #3, maybe there is nothing more to add.


    Regarding patents, my understanding is that unless and until IH actually receives a patent, Rossi has no basis for a complaint. IIRC, this is actually established case law. And further, given the terms of their contract, it is doubtful that Rossi has a basis for complaint even if they were to receive a patent. But (perhaps ironically) the one basis that Rossi might have some leverage with would be the USPTO rules regarding co-inventorship, assuming Rossi was a legitimate co-inventor not named in an IH patent application. The co-inventor requirement is a point Jed made, I posted a link to, and Abd helpfully corrected to the post-2012 version (which as it turns out was identical or virtually identical to the pre-2012 version as to the issue of co-inventors).


    Is that your understanding? (Again, trying to achieve clarity, identify areas of agreement, and generally make constructive comments).


    [Edited to acknowledge IHFB attribution corrections.]