Should ideas concepts and theories behind LENR be discussed on Internet Forums?

  • In recent posts Andrea Rossi has mentioned his view that discussing LENR theory in particular ideas that are not well formed or incomplete, on the Internet may harm the public view of LENR.


    I myself have raised views on theory and tried to raise discussion on a simple physics approach following an earlier post by Andrea Rossi regarding discussions in the community that in his view were focusing on new physics and ignoring traditional physics.


    My very distant and old physics background touched more on space plasma magneto hydrodynamics behaviour in the solar corona and matching macroscopic and microscopic behaviour in the earths bow shock, but it is limited in nuclear physics. Since then my working career has been more of a system engineer. My personal view however is that some aspects of what we see in LENR maybe explained with simple traditional physics principles, but maybe more complicated at system level. Other people have other very interesting ideas that I enjoy reading and trying to understand.


    I have great respect for Andrea Rossi, however and believe he already has a very good understanding of the processes involved in LENR from his current work with Norman Cook, his earlier work with Sergio Focardi and the data he has since obtained through experimentation. I also appreciate and respect his direct talking even though it can come across hard sometimes, it expresses his real concerns about how people view LENR.


    In some ways we are all climbing the LENR mountain but Andrea Rossi and some others are amazingly already close to the peak. They do not need not theory to help him get there. Would it be best to wait for them to get there before discussing the theory? May be then we can look from the top of the mountain.


    Can discussion about ideas and theory harm or help views on LENR?


    Should discussions about LENR theory be discussed and if so should it be limited to certain forums?

    • Official Post

    From LENR/Cold Fusion, from EmDrive, from Wegener, from Quasicrystals, histories it is clear that theory is initially a premature question that hinder acceptation of experimental reality.


    As JF Geneste said in his presentation, industrialists need a theory, even local and limited, to allow investments of millions, and continuous improvement of the technology.


    however at the beginning the theory is a trap, a cause of brainlock.
    For most scientists is is a reason to deny reality of experiment, as Dunbar observed:
    http://www.wired.com/2009/12/fail_accept_defeat/2/

    Quote


    The reason we’re so resistant to anomalous information — the real reason researchers automatically assume that every unexpected result is a stupid mistake — is rooted in the way the human brain works. Over the past few decades, psychologists have dismantled the myth of objectivity. The fact is, we carefully edit our reality, searching for evidence that confirms what we already believe. Although we pretend we’re empiricists — our views dictated by nothing but the facts — we’re actually blinkered, especially when it comes to information that contradicts our theories. The problem with science, then, isn’t that most experiments fail — it’s that most failures are ignored.


    For others, and we often see that in LENR, it is preventing people to follow many ideas, because they focus on proving their theory, not on covering the space of possibilities.
    Another effect of the pet theories, is that too often the theories are based on "new physics" or dubious hypothesis, that raise hilarity among the skeptics, ridiculing the serious experimental results.


    Another phenomenon i observed is the tendency to build a full theory, and not simply to propose some ideas, principles, approach, letting time for the details to mature.


    Premature is the keyword.
    (Anyway like chocolate it is so tasty.)

  • Very poignent example and very true. Probably most great discoveries have been proceded this way ever since Archimedese took his bath... And even before when his and our distant ancestor tried to understand the wheel, fire and hammer he just made.

  • Quote

    I have great respect for Andrea Rossi


    Why, oh why? The guy is a convicted felon for horrible environmental crimes as well as money laundering. He has never produced a single thing except cons and lies. He cheated the DOD/CERL out of millions of dollars in the early 2000's and now, he's been lying and making idiotic claims for those pieces of old plumbing he calls e-cats and hot cats. Some accomplishment. You respect an aging con man? Please tell me you studied Krivit and Wright web sites, the stuff Thomas Clarke and Pomp wrote, the stuff I wrote, and you still believe Rossi? WHY?

  • In the field of physics, theory must now precede experimental observation. Higgs theory first, then LHC second. Of course. Poor Einstein et al, they observed the photoelectric effect first, then explained it with quantum theory. What fools. ;)


    It's not that simple. Both experimental observations (many accidental or fortuitous) and theory guide the development of any scientific field. IIRC, HT superconductors were discovered without a theory as were many other things which I would have to research to list.

  • Simple physics tells us, that lenr is simply bullshit.


    And our dear dottore Rossi, the King of Scam, knows that very well.


    I'm glad your here Pathoskeptic and keeping me in check. When you are convinced then it means they have really got there.


    I have faith in people based on what I see and I do trust in some people and some results based on that... I'm not sure I believe in fairies though... but apparenty my cat does... Oh well.

  • Why, oh why? The guy is a convicted felon for horrible environmental crimes as well as money laundering. He has never produced a single thing except cons and lies. He cheated the DOD/CERL out of millions of dollars in the early 2000's and now, he's been lying and making idiotic claims for those pieces of old plumbing he calls e-cats and hot cats. Some accomplishment. You respect an aging con man? Please tell me you studied Krivit and Wright web sites, the stuff Thomas Clarke and Pomp wrote, the stuff I wrote, and you still believe Rossi? WHY?


    Hello Mary Yugo, thanks for your reply. Your comment deserves a considered answer . I am relatively new to the LENR world but have been following it for a few months now. The very first link I saw about Andrea Rossi was a very negative piece on wiki, and my first impression is the language was too negative and aspiteful and opinion based to be a balanced view, I was drawn to look deeper into who he was and background and found counter arguments to those posed in that link I. I have since then seen different views in the media both positive and negative. But the language in the negative reviews has tended to push me towards the other side. i have formed my own view based on his interactions on the media and the way that I see and believe he works. I have met one or two people in my life who seem to have similar dedication and each one of them was remarkable in what they were able to achieve. I don't believe someone could be so dedicated to a con... If they continue doing what they are doing despite adversity they are remarkable to me.


    If there is a con then I'm not sure if it is with the accusers or with the accused. That said the greatest of all con artists are able to get the victim to con them selves . I will read the web sites you mentioned to get the view from your side. It's true that I may not have read them yet but for now I tend to believe the other side of the story.


    I believe you are well meaning and not acting out of spite so if you are correct I appreciate you trying to warn me but it seems an incredible amount of effort on his side for no benefit if that is the case.

    • Official Post

    Why, oh why? The guy is a convicted felon for horrible environmental crimes as well as money laundering. He has never produced a single thing except cons and lies. He cheated the DOD/CERL out of millions of dollars in the early 2000's and now, he's been lying and making idiotic claims for those pieces of old plumbing he calls e-cats and hot cats. Some accomplishment. You respect an aging con man? Please tell me you studied Krivit and Wright web sites, the stuff Thomas Clarke and Pomp wrote, the stuff I wrote, and you still believe Rossi? WHY?


    I, for example, am here because I like to try to discover new physical effects by unprepossessed testing of all things creativity and fantasy allows us to think of and because I like to discuss about this.


    But you, why are you here in this forum? All your posts aim at convincing others that all Rossi has done is scam.
    You seem to sit an all this evidence and fuzzy logical reasoning that Rossi is a scammer. So just ignore everything that is written here and leave the forum. Why do you waste your time in this forum? Why are you so eagerly trying to convince others?

    • Official Post

    The fire was discovered by this unprepossessed thinking. Free of all the existing theories that taking a stick and carrying it from place to place will give you bad luck.


    Was the discovery of fire unscientific? Yes, it was. But still it was somewhat important.


    Is trying to heat and pressurize different material compositions unscientific.


    Possibly! But still it can lead to the discovery of a physical effect.


    Unscientific does not mean unimportant.

  • why are you here in this forum?


    Trolls gonna troll.


    Mary Yugo finds people who are interested in Rossi's saga, and tries to push them into defending Rossi, in which case they are labelled a gullible "True Believer", or "a dummie", and demeaned and ridiculed on other internet forums.


    I think he is bored in retirement.


    He believes he is the spiritual successor to James Randi, when in reality, the only thing they share is that they are both obsessed with a (different) foreign man.

    • Official Post


    It's not that simple. Both experimental observations (many accidental or fortuitous) and theory guide the development of any scientific field. IIRC, HT superconductors were discovered without a theory as were many other things which I would have to research to list.


    HTSC was relegated as footnote in papers, to avoid censorship
    http://www.mosaicsciencemagazine.org/pdf/m18_03_87_04.pdf


    Shetchtman was insulted by his Nobel boss... as quasi scientist.
    and fired as a shame of the lab.
    http://www.flogen.org/ShechtmanSymposium/



    It would be nice to consider real life science and not Popper myth.


  • Hi Majorana, thanks for your post.
    Isn't discovery also part of science? where would biology, geology and other sciences be if there were not people prepared to go out and explore off the established path with no pre conceptions, physics should be no different… why should Physics be dominated by a theoretical approach first then investigation after? Discovery and innovation is the impetus of scientific investigation. Astrophysics is full of examples of discoveries that have only found explanation much later and in fact these kinds of discoveries are much sought after. I would say most great break throughs have come form explorers, engineers and inventors who were prepared to look beyond preconceptions. Scientific investigation and theory only later served to refine and explain them. Theory has its place and can lead to great insights and useful technology but surely so unconstrained discovery has its place in Science too.


    I had hoped that some theoretical investigation of what is currently known could help experimentation, but I fully see your point that unfettered experimentation with out preconception can lead to new discoveries and insights. This is especially so in an open science environment where all kinds of experiments can be run to see what comes up. I wish you well in your approach. I am very glad that inventors explorers and engineers with your unconstrained approach still exist.


  • http://kb.e-catworld.com/index…_energy_nuclear_reactions https://petitions.whitehouse.g…ion-lenr-power-generation It's up to you to build support for petitions you care about and gather more signatures. A petition must get 150 signatures in order to be publicly searchable on WhiteHouse.gov. Over time, we may need to adjust the petition signature thresholds, but we'll always let you know what the thresholds are.


    James Rovnak
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.June 29th, 2015 at 11:09 PM
    IMHO let me try again to educate myself in where the neutrons come from that make the Hot E-Cat power generation possible? Does Santilli also know Andrea?


    “Where do Rossi’s neutrons come from to make his reaction & Hot E-Cat power, does Santilli know? https://twitter.com/JAROVNAK/status/615719301186744321


    Jim Still trying to discuss the subject, at least I do know they are necessary!


    Have a nice evening, everything very quite at MFMP


    “Dear friends, we are pleased to announce the newly formed partnership between Open Power and Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project, in the spirit of open science and the sharing of results that animates us both. “

  • it seems an incredible amount of effort on his side for no benefit if that is the case.

    The benefit is millions of dollars. $10M from [lexicon]IH[/lexicon] alone and who knows how much from before in the form of license fees and payments from investors like the principals at Ampenergo. For example this from 2011: http://www.nyteknik.se/nyheter…energi/article3179019.ece In this article, the interviewee says they paid Rossi and that the sum was "considerable". And then there are all the expenses and trips including those paid by Elforsk and others.


    Why are you so eagerly trying to convince others?

    Because I despise scammers. They waste everyone's time and energy and they consume money better spent on real research. I admit Rossi is a small scam compared to others (a recent 60 Minutes piece described tax return frauds costing more than a BILLION dollars). But this is one fraud I know something about and it seems to be getting new suckers every day. I am interested in stopping Rossi and if possible, seeing him in jail (again).


    He believes he is the spiritual successor to James Randi


    I wish! Randi is/was much better than me. He called out any number of scumbag scam artists like psychics and mediums who speak to the dead, dowsers, homeopathy practitioners, and many more pseudoscientific and free energy scammers who delude people and trick them out of money and effort -- exactly like Rossi did. What's your problem with Randi? Do you hate the truth that much?

  • @Jerovnak


    That White House petition is smoking hot. It already has 50 of 100,000 needed signatures! It may even get to 75 but it doesn't seem it will. Half the time is already gone. What a success! So many people believe Rossi. ROTFWL!