Industrial Heat Amends Answer to Rossi’s Complaint on Aug 11th

    Quote from Eric Walker

    If this is your position, then perhaps you also agree with me in suggesting that you appear to assume from go that IH would not deal squarely with Rossi.


    In IH's mind, they have always negotiated in good faith. That means, get the most favorable deal possible without jeopardizing the deal. This is what each side does during a contract negotiation. IH had better lawyers than Rossi from the start, period. The contract is heavily weighted toward IH.


    The biggest coup was that after the second installment, IH had everything. This was in the contract from the start, and there is no doubt in my mind that IH understood the implications of that part of the deal. There was a total risk of zero of not performing according to the contract subsequent to the payment of the second installment, and receipt of information from Rossi. Zero. Okay, maybe the risk of a pesky little dispute. But they even acted shocked and surprised that Rossi had the gumption to file suit.


    If a person (or company) is not induced to spend $89 million, they won't spend it. It was a fundamental weakness in the contract that disfavored Rossi. And IH (or at least their lawyers) knew this from the get go, because they likely drafted those clauses.

    Quote from Eric Walker

    . . . perhaps we'll be seeing IH-Cats soon, and their game will be unmasked.


    That is one of the most interesting dynamics, I must admit. On the one hand, they have an improved version, we know it, they have filed patent applications on it, and they have left wiggle-room language everywhere to account for it. On the other hand, as you astutely observe, taking the IH-Cat to market would not play well with their current story line. That is likely why Dewey always refused to directly answer my questions whenever I would probe on this matter. It is an interesting dilemma, and unfortunately, serves humanity very poorly.

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    Quote from Eric Walker: “. . . perhaps we'll be seeing IH-Cats soon, and their game will be unmasked. ”


    That is one of the most interesting dynamics, I must admit. On the one hand, they have an improved version, we know it, they have filed patent…


    But if IH can't start selling their improved version and start making billions because of the court case. Then in hindsight it must have been a mistake not to pay the 89 millions won't you agree?

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    IH likely had no intention of ever paying the $89 million irrespective of what happened after the second installment. Once they had the information from Rossi, there was absolutely zero incentive for them to pay, ever, whether they replicated "Rossi's" reactor, or not. That is Rossi's fault for failing to negotiate a better deal, and failing to insist that the $89 million be escrowed. But it also exposes character flaws on the part of those behind IH.


    IH are clearly not telling you the whole story. In every instance of their "never substantiated" misdirection, the language of which extends into the Answer (albeit in a more wordy fashion), they left an escape hatch. The escape hatch is that they have a high-COP reactor, that they feel is no longer "Rossi's" technology, because they themselves did something to improve it. Every time they project the message that the "Rossi" technology does not work, they have left this escape hatch. It takes the form of words such as unable to replicate technology "directly" received from Rossi, or unable to replicate "using" Rossi's technology, and so forth. The fact that they filed their own national and international patent applications, with a co-inventor of their own, underscores this sneaky position.


    And yes, they are sneaky. They word their messages in one way to misdirect the public into thinking one thing, while attempting to hide behind the curtain their true intentions. Their actions have the effect of damaging reputations of members of the LENR+ community, while they simultaneously pursue LENR+ for themselves. They have no love for the LENR (non LENR+ community). Whatever love you feel from them is a disingenuous.


    I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Do you mean that IH where able to get Rossi's e-cat to work. And now lies in their answer to the court. Or do you mean that they tell the truth and couldn't get Rossi's stuff to work but then made their own improvements and suddenly it started to work.

    Quote

    IH likely had no intention of ever paying the $89 million irrespective of what happened after the second installment.


    How can you be so sure of that? They signed a contract making that a requirement if Rossi conducted an entirely doable test (no customer needed). They are not idiots. Further, on completion of the $89M payment they would have unchallengable right to use all the e-cat IP. Worth, given it works, a lot more than $89M.


    Why do you have this strange certainty that IH are fraudulent - on zero evidence?

    Quote

    IH are clearly not telling you the whole story. In every instance of their "never substantiated" misdirection, the language of which extends into the Answer (albeit in a more wordy fashion), they left an escape hatch. The escape hatch is that they have a high-COP reactor, that they feel is no longer "Rossi's" technology, because they themselves did something to improve it.


    That is a fantasy you and ECW readers develop to justify a given fixed view of events. I agree IH are careful not to commit themselves to more than "We have tested Rossi IP and it does not work". They may be pretty sure Rossi IP never works, but it would be foolish to claim that in a legal action. A logical possibility is that Rossi is playing a "Hydrofusion" trick with them and it does work. They have said exactly what you would expect in this legal action - and no more. To say more in any way would merely confuse the issue, and would be foolish


    Quote

    The fact that they filed their own national and international patent applications, with a co-inventor of their own, underscores this sneaky position.


    Absolutely not. They worked with the possibility that Rossi's stuff works. In that case the license agreement specifically allows them to get IP protection (as would be obviously sensible). They are obliged - as a matter of fiduciary responsibility - to do this. You have a bizaare idea of how VC companies work if you think getting every possible little drop of IP protection for possibly working technology is not what they always do.


    This legal action cannot - from IH's point of view - preclude the possibility that Rossi's stuff works. He says it works, says that he has made a "magnificence" deceiving his last partner into thinking it does not work with faked bad tests. It would be irresponsible of them to rule this out when so much money is at stake if there is anything in the IP.


    This argument of yours - that IH are sneakily doing what any responsible VC would be obliged to do - is absurd.


    Also, they have not mentioned in this action the various other LENR research activities they have invested in. Why on earth should they? It is completely irrelevant to this Legal action and if well advised you do not say anything that distracts from the points you are making.

    Quote

    And yes, they are sneaky. They word their messages in one way to misdirect the public into thinking one thing, while attempting to hide behind the curtain their true intentions. Their actions have the effect of damaging reputations of members of the LENR+ community, while they simultaneously pursue LENR+ for themselves. They have no love for the LENR (non LENR+ community).


    This is an ad hom - directed as a libellous statement towards IH with no justification. I'm pretty sure IH would not bother to scare you off, the fact that they did that would do their rep no good - and I'm sure they don't care much what are your views - but it is bad form as well as legally dangerous to make vicious attacks on the reputation of companies without a shred of evience.

    Quote from THHuxley


    Absolutely not. They worked with the possibility that Rossi's stuff works. In that case the license agreement specifically allows them to get IP protection (as would be obviously sensible). They are obliged - as a matter of fiduciary responsibility - to do this. You have a bizaare idea of how VC companies work if you think getting every possible little drop of IP protection for possibly working technology is not what they always do.


    What you said, THH.


    About that application. It was filed before the Lugano test. I've discussed this with a patent attorney, because that application was odd and seemed inadequate to me. It was made more adequate later, after theLugano test, and the Lugano report was copied into it, But it is still probably worthless. After all, the Lugano reactor did not actually work, it merely seemed that way for a while, until there was careful attention to the Report. And apparently IH later attempted to confirm the Lugano results and found no excess heat. They made that thing, after all.


    And then there is the matter of the co-inventor. They made the actual devices used in Lugano, and if anyone contributed new ideas to that incarnation of the E-cat, showing a co-inventor was a legal obligation, failing to do so could invalidate the patent. Rossi showed radical misunderstanding of patent law, in his Rossi v. Darden claims, and Planet Rossi follows along lapping it up.


    In fact, I've been told, Rossi later filed patents covering the Lugano technology, internationally, and apparently they are invalid because of the prior publication in the Lugano report, the mention of LiAlH4. But the IH application with Rossi as inventor (and Dameron as co-inventor) is still valid on the face, so the IH action protected Rossi IP, to that extent. (There are many other problems with the patents. Prior art is a major one. If there is failure to disclose an important element of the invention, a patent might be awarded, but can be useless and unenforceable. Etc.)


    And then IH Is attacked for protecting Rossi IP, as the Agreement explicitly allowed them to do. Only on Planet Rossi.


    That patent shows no evidence at all of non-Rossi IP, other than what may be minor improvements in the construction of devices. There is no inconsistency I have seen, no sign that IH has a kilowatt technology hidden somewhere.

    Quote from IH Fanboy

    It is nearly impossible to get any LENR related patent applications allowed at the USPTO. IH understands this well.


    First, Rossi did get a patent, so it is not "nearly impossible." Second, we are talking about a scenario in which I.H. is selling billions of dollars worth of the technology. In that event, everyone in the world would know it is real and there would no longer be any problem getting patents. It is not possible that they would be selling equipment yet the existence of cold fusion would remain secret. Before they sell a single unit cold fusion will have to be tested by government regulators, UL and many others and everyone will see it is real. Rossi will be one of the most famous people in the world in this scenario. If I.H. stole from him, he will be able to call upon the services of the best lawyers on earth to get back his IP.


    If it remains difficult to get patents, and if cold fusion technology is not sold, and the existence of the effect remains controversial indefinitely, then I.H. will not make any money, and there will be nothing to fight over.

    Quote

    ...perhaps we'll be seeing IH-Cats soon, and their game will be unmasked.


    We'll see invisible flying unicorns first!

    Quote from Mary Yugo

    ...perhaps we'll be seeing IH-Cats soon, and their game will be unmasked.
    We'll see invisible flying unicorns first!


    Okay, preconditions satisfied. I sat down and thought about what invisible flying unicorns would look like, then I checked what I could see.


    Exact match! So when do the E-Cats show up at Home Depot?


    What I think seeing this conversations is a version of "a pox on both your houses!" If E-Cats show up at Home Depot, how does that "unmask their game"? That would indicate, most likely, that Rossi had a real secret and didn't disclose it to IH. That's all. Yes, that is unlikely, my guess, but invisible flying unicorns? My youngest two daughters agreed that such were real (by themselves, it was their story that they worked out, about Unicorn Land and visiting it. And then there was the Ogre who lived there, but they were trying to negotiate some settlement so everybody could live in peace. Unicorns are gentle and kind.)

    "It works" is a concept that can be interpreted on many levels. Rossi's reaction works on a level where producing excess heat is the goal. For this, Rossi got the 10 million. But IH does not think that Rossi has created a commercial level product that could succeed in the marketplace. In that sense, Rossi's reactor does not work.


    Rossi used the 1 year test in an attempt to produce a sellable product. IMHO, he did not do it. IH does not want to take the risk to take that level of development onto themselves. IG wants a perfect product that they can put on the market that IH can make money from. Any E-Cat product that can be sold shall not need Rossi to control it on site. That is not what IH called working and in this I agree.

    Quote from axil

    Rossi's reaction works on a level where producing excess heat is the goal. For this, Rossi got the 10 million. But IH does not think that Rossi has created a commercial level product that could succeed in the marketplace. In that sense, Rossi's reactor does not work.


    No. You made that up. That is your imaginary version of events. I.H. thinks that Rossi has no heat at all. None. It is not the case that they think he has "failed to achieve a commercial level;" they think he has failed totally.


    You may think he has failed to achieve a commercial level, but you should not substitute your own ideas for what I.H. thinks and says. Do not put words in their mouth.

    Quote from JedRothwell

    axil wrote:
    Rossi's reaction works on a level where producing excess heat is the goal. For this, Rossi got the 10 million. But IH does not think that Rossi has created a commercial level product that could succeed in the marketplace. In that sense, Rossi's reactor does not work.


    No. You made that up. That is your imaginary version of events. I.H. thinks that Rossi has no heat at all. None. It is not the case that they think he has "failed to achieve a commercial level;" they think he has failed totally.


    You may think he has failed to achieve a commercial level, but you should not substitute your own ideas for what I.H. thinks and says. Do not put words in their mouth.


    I'm going to point out that this could be misunderstood. The Rossi approach uses crude calorimetry that would not detect modest excess heat. Given that Rossi was reporting heat from NiH reactions, this wasn't new, it's called the Piantelli effect, as I recall (Jed may know more). What was new with Rossi was demonstration on a large scale with high levels of heat. (Most cold fusion researchers avoid the large scale, consider it premature until small scale reactions are under control. There are obvious dangers; if a reaction is not predictable, maybe it will suddenly generate a lot of heat.)


    In those Rossi-type configurations, and with more careful measurement, IH apparently found no "measurable heat," I think is the term they used. Using more sensitive and precise calorimetry might reveal some heat .... but not anything like what Rossi was claiming, and this all amounts to "no evidence for excess heat from a so-called Rossi Effect."


    There could have been failures that would mean the product wasn't ready for the market, nor close enough to be able to sell licenses, the core of raising $89 million, but that is not what IH is saying. They are saying that those reactors were expensive electrically heated door stops. Useless junk, not even test beds for studying some reaction.


    With three years of effort, with IH making devices to Rossi's specifications, IH still was unable to confirm any excess heat. Yet Rossi, with those same devices, claims to have run a one-year GPT, with an ERV. The conditions of that alleged GPT and of the ERV raise massive suspicion of fraud. That's devastating.


    If Rossi had a real effect, he created extensive cause for suspicion, and it's clear that he did this, it was not forced on him.


    Nobody sane is going to trust him again.

    Quote from JedRothwell


    No. You made that up. That is your imaginary version of events. I.H. thinks that Rossi has no heat at all. None. It is not the case that they think he has "failed to achieve a commercial level;" they think he has failed totally.

    You may think he has failed to achieve a commercial level, but you should not substitute your own ideas for what I.H. thinks and says. Do not put words in their mouth.



    Based on section 4 of the licence agreement, Rossi was paid $10,000,000 by IH for showing overunity of 6X for 24 continuous hours and the production of steam at 100C or greater during this 24 hour test. This evidence is solid in fact and not a product of my speculations.

    Quote

    Based on section 4 of the licence agreement, Rossi was paid $10,000,000 by IH for showing overunity of 6X for 24 continuous hours and the production of steam at 100C or greater during this 24 hour test. This evidence is solid in fact and not a product of my speculations.


    The facts are that Rossi was paid, and the license agreement set a given benchmark. In any world other than Axils where everything is true or false, there are questions about whether, as IH claim, Rossi's meeting that benchmark was not with a fair test and therefore possibly fraudulent. There are additional facts which show Penon having put his name to grossly inadequate (professionally negligent) test documents - so skepticism is reasonable.

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