Rossi v. Darden developments - Part 1

  • @IHFB


    My point is that if you don't speculate there is no evidence to beat up IH, as you like to do.


    Quote

    If they had an internal test in which they modified some parameters to make it work, they would not necessarily tell you.


    But they would not lie about it in legal documents to be tested later in Court, nor would they resist paying $89M in order to obtain revolutionary working new technology without troublesome legal matters. You may call these two points speculation: I don't.


    In any case your question is based on your speculative idea - for which you have no evidence.

  • Or, given that your posts here tend to be knocking down other people's evidence


    But you have no evidence, only conjectures channeled from the pathoskeptic egregore, and the hearsay of other filibusterers

  • If making ship loads of money is the goal of IH, Rossi's lithium technology is fundamentally flawed and this technology will poison any other LENR system that IH is developing that uses Rossi's tech. As a general rule, any tech that is highly regulated is profit limited and Rossi's tech will be heavily regulated. IH has swallowed a poison pill that will direct profits from LENR to other profit centers.

    • Official Post

    (6) Rossi's statements and actions don't make sense if he has nothing


    I have sympathy with this argument: Rossi's behaviour is highly atypical. But it is undoubtedly true that his behaviour makes even less sense if he does have something. Much of the Planet Rossi case rests on supposing Rossi has some psychology that causes him to act strongly against his own interest....


    On case which is well known is the pathological gamblers. another is the groupthink.


    The gambler psychology can be applied to people who have seen some phenomenon, who know of a phenomenon, and just want to get time and money to keep researshing, and payback theyr money and ethical debt.


    Note that attacking their founder when the founder have found a fraud, is clearly rational, but desperate. As dad told me about an ambush, the only exit is straight ahead because all rational flee plan is anticipated.


    About groupthink, the Benabou model explains that when situation have no exit, the best rational behavior is believing in your dream, and sincerely, proving it tou yourself and your partners by the most suicidal decision if you are wrong.
    http://www.princeton.edu/~rbenabou/papers/Patterns of Denial 4l fin.pdf

  • Quote from THHuxley: “But they would not lie about it in legal documents to be tested later in Court”


    But they might dance around it with escape-hatch language. And in fact, that is what they did, and are doing.


    Quote from THHuxley: “Or, given that your posts here tend to be knocking down other people's evidence”


    But you have no evidence, only conjectures channeled from the pathoskeptic egregore, and the hearsay of other filibusterers<s></s>


    Quote from THHuxley: “That is a bold statement, and one not evidenced. Given your great dislike of contentless posts, posts speculating, etc, I'd not expect such of you.”


    @THH: One more sample...


    And these three quotes make my point.


    IHFB is arguing that Rossi has something becaue IH don't rule it out. A moment's thought would show you that it would never be possible for IH to rule out the possibility of Rossi having something. Why does this make IH the Evil Empire?


    Keieue is just wrong. We have (some) direct evidence of Rossi's deceit (the e-mail). We have (loads of) direct evidence that Rossi-sanctioned tests give known false positives. Keieue does not believe the test evidence, I believe. But anyone looking at the technical details and reflecting would see the issue. We have (load of) indirect evidence that Rossi has time and again made misleading statements.


    Wyttenbach is Holier Than Thou while avoiding answering the point. He criticises Jed and others for unfounded speculation but states much more unfounded speculation of his own as fact.

  • This was expected, being the joint motion requested by the Judge, to avoid duplicate arguments and process. See Third Parties in Rossi v. IH Court Case File Joint Motion to Dismiss Counter Claims Against Them which refers to the E-catworld post and links to the googledrive copy of the motion. This is 0069.0 on newvortex.


    Quote

    Pursuant to this Court’s Order [ECF No. 62], Third-Party Defendants, J.M. Products, Inc. (“JMP”), Henry Johnson (“Johnson”), James A. Bass (“Bass”), United States Quantum Leap, LLC (“USQL”), and Fulvio Fabiani (“Fabiani”) (collectively, the “Third-Party Defendants”), by and through their undersigned counsel and pursuant to Rule 12(b)(6), Fed. R. Civ. P., collectively move this Court for the entry of an Order dismissing Counts III, IV, and V of the Case ...


    The motion recounts the history of pleadings.


    Quote

    7. In their Counterclaims and Third-Party Claims, Counter-Plaintiffs set forth over 100 paragraphs with allegations that purportedly support their claims, yet only a few of them involve or relate to Third-Party Defendants.


    That is correct; however, the rest sets a context in which the interactions with Johnson, Fabiani, and Bass take on a meaning and purpose, allegedly a fraudulent scheme to create an appearance of a "Test" that would trigger an $89 million payment to Rossi.


    The Motion goes on to claim that the evidence provided is not adequately specific.



    I'm going to take a short-cut here. IH will respond in detail, I'm sure. However, the claims in the Motion with regard to Johnson seem to be directly contrary to what they recited. Their restatement is a little vague.


    Quote

    9. Counter-Plaintiffs allege that “Rossi and Johnson made a number of false representations to IH, most notably that JMP was a confidential subsidiary of Johnson Matthey p.l.c. (“Johnson Matthey”), and that Johnson Matthey was interested in using the E-Cat technology in connection with a confidential manufacturing process it wanted to operate in Florida.” (ECF No. 50, ¶74.)


    However, from the Second Amended Answer, which they cite, there is more detail:


    Quote

    74. Also in furtherance of this scheme, Rossi, both in his individual capacity and as the representative of Leonardo, and Johnson, both in his individual capacity and as the representative of JMP, traveled to North Carolina in August 2014 to meet with individuals from Industrial Heat. During this meeting, Rossi and Johnson made a number of false representations to Industrial Heat, most notably that JMP (at the time called J.M. Chemical Products, Inc.) was a confidential subsidiary of Johnson Matthey p.l.c. (“Johnson Matthey”), and that Johnson Matthey was interested in using the E-Cat technology in connection with a confidential manufacturing process it wanted to operate in Florida. In fact, in August 2014 Johnson on behalf of JMP even warranted in writing that JMP “[was] owned by an entity formed in the United Kingdom, and none of Leonardo, Dr. Andrea Rossi, Henry W. Johnson nor any of their respective subsidiaries, directors, officers, agents, employees, affiliates, significant others, or relatives by blood or marriage [had] any ownership interest” in JMP. See Compl. Ex. B. (last page of Plaintiffs’ Exhibit). JMP, however, has never been a subsidiary of Johnson Matthey, was not operating or planning to operate any manufacturing process in Florida, and was in fact owned by persons whom Johnson represented in writing did not have any ownership interest in JMP.


    Johnson is not going to succeed in getting the core complaint dismissed, it's been alleged with quite adequate specificity.


    What about Bass? If, as alleged, JM Products was a fake company, Bass's role was an act, supporting a fraud. This is specific and easily disproven if false. I don't see that Bass can wave this away.


    That leaves Fabiani. The claims against Fabiani are relatively vague, my opinion. However, this is what they have:



    Fabiani claims a technical defect in the contract with USQL. That's not going to fly, His email to Vaughn (Exhibit 1) is completely adequate to establish estoppel on that. There are two claims against Fabiani, and the Motion confuses them. There is Breach of Contract, which is apparent in the refusal or failure to supply information. However, that is not the fraud claim, in itself. Rather, there is an allegation that Fabiani was involved in setting up Bass. As well, Fabiani spent countless hours over that year with the Plant, is a long-term friend of Rossi (they don't mention that), and would very likely have known that the "customer" was fake. IH is claiming that Fabiani was a supporter of the fraud, which is a distinct claim from the Breach of Contract claim.


    Again, if there was no fraud, if the customer was real and there was real manufacturing taking place, using a high level of power, this will all fall apart, and strong evidence on this point can easily be introduced by the counterclaim defendants.


    I write above that the case against Fabiani seems vague and weak. That's by comparison. It seems strong enough to stand pending discovery. The judge might want some specifics, perhaps how IH comes to suspect that Fabiani was involved in the recruitment of Bass or in the maintenance of other deceptive practice. However, given the contractual relationship, if Fabiani helped Rossi to hide anything about that Plant and the customer, including simply not disclosing what he knew or suspected, that would be enough to involve him in the fraud.


    Barry West is a wild card here!

  • They may have been very foolish in their early dealings with Rossi. I expect they were convinced by the Lugano test which had they taken better technical advice at the time they would not have been. But I'm not certain of that, and in any case being overly optimistic about LENR is a pretty common mistake.


    Some knowledgeable people commented more or less positively about Lugano at first. McKubre's review comes to mind. However, McKubre, in the same review, pointed out the huge problem that allowed major calorimetry error, he merely did not see the actual error. He assumed good faith (and I have no reason to doubt the good faith of the Lugano team) and he also did what was normal with scientific reports, he stated with an assumption that they had done their work properly.


    IH, however, apparently did not simply accept Lugano results, they attempted to verify them, probably fixing the problems, doing proper calibrations, etc., and found no measurable heat. That, I would interpret, likely means "no significant heat," not enough heat to be sure it was not artifact. Bottom line, much less heat than was clained.


    I would not call McKubre's early report "overly optimisitic about LENR." McKubre knows that LENR actually exists, the way I put it one time was that with P13/P14, the chimera of LENR licked him in the face and then walked out of the lab. He has seen, in his own lab, many, many strong evidences of reality. None of it, by the way, commercially promising; but his work with the Energetics Technologies replication was such that most cells showed significant heat, out of an extensive series.


    IH knew what they were getting into, that seems obvious to me, and they did pay attention to experts, and did their own work.


    To sustain the Planet Rossi story of IH greed requires accepting a major conspiracy theory that is implausible in many ways. The story will probably continue of Rossi v. Darden is dismissed on the obvious grounds, the conspiracy then extending to the U.S. courts.


    There is a simple suggestion I have for Planet Rossi: support Rossi in creating products for the market, which he has always claimed was the ultimate judge. Attacking IH is simply going to waste Rossi resources. If he did have a functioning 1 MW plant in Doral, it appears that he so badly mismanaged the setup and operation of the alleged test that he cannot collect the $89 million, he would have to go back to square one. Let him do that later. For now, he needs a product that is actually in real use, that will be generating revenue for him and his partners. He has some issues to resolve because of his Agreement with IH, but that can be done. See if he will take good advice from his friends!

  • IHFB is arguing that Rossi has something becaue IH don't rule it out. A moment's thought would show you that it would never be possible for IH to rule out the possibility of Rossi having something. Why does this make IH the Evil Empire?


    That is not my position. It is that IH probably have something (i.e., commercially viable LENR) because they always include weasel language whenever they state that they have been unable to substantiate the IP directly received from Rossi. And they have filed their own national and international patent applications naming one of their own as an inventor, meaning that they have made improvements on the technology. The weasel language comes in different forms, as I have pointed out before, but you can count on it being there every time. And no, I don't consider IH evil, to the extent that they do not try to obstruct commercially viable LENR, which is sometimes referred to as LENR+, particularly if they are aware of it and have it themselves. I'm not ready to say that they are obstructing LENR+, but at this point, it sure seems they are hiding the ball, and that could turn into obstruction if they are not careful.

  • IH is working with different researchers and have done so since before signing on Rossi.
    In all likelihood they have some active LENR tech that is not Rossi's and thus you would expect
    them to use "weasel words" when discussing LENR.
    Who knows what they may have? Perhaps the older Thermocore or CETI nickel systems.


    The point is the presence of "weasel words" is not an indication of deceit. Instead, it may be just plain truthfulness.


    Also realize that Rossi sold IH the rights for improvements on his invention. It is sad that he apparently did not transfer
    workable IP to them. It was his task to both produce a device in a timely manor and to instruct IH so they could
    commercialize. He spent time with them in NC and if they were not doing thing correctly, it was for him to transfer the IP
    so that they could make it work with his help there.


    If they had workable tech at that time, they would most likely be starting certification and manufacturing.
    But, alas, that is not the case.


    As I "read the tea leaves" it seems that IH may have some technology other than Rossi's or improvement on Rossi's that
    is giving small to modest heat but not enough or reliable enough to commercialize so they will cannot say LENR doesn't work, only
    that the Technology that Rossi showed and ran for them in NC did not work as he claimed.

  • Quote from IHFB

    That is not my position. It is that IH probably have something (i.e., commercially viable LENR) because they always include weasel language whenever they state that they have been unable to substantiate the IP directly received from Rossi. And they have filed their own national and international patent applications naming one of their own as an inventor, meaning that they have made improvements on the technology. The weasel language comes in different forms, as I have pointed out before, but you can count on it being there every time.


    Let us examine this argument. IH have bought LENR tech from Rossi. Suppose that when they test it it does not work (measurably) and certainly is not as billed by Rossi. On the other hand, LENR experiments are notoriously difficult, giving variable results. Further, IH know that Rossi has some historical link with Focardi, a real LENR researcher.


    IH have two options:
    (1) State categorically that Rossi technology does not work, and act accordingly.
    (2) State that they have been unable to measure excess heat from Rossi devices, but leave open the possibility that Rossi technology might still have some merit, or contains aspects which have merit. In which case they will obviously patent things (which costs almost nothing) on the off chance that some aspect of the patent has value.


    Which of these two options do you think is the sane commercial approach from IH?


    If you say (2), then your argument falls. If you say (1) then you have to argue what commercial advantage this gives to IH. Also you have to argue that IH principals would be OK making a statement that all LENR researchers would know in principle must be incorrect. Remember that good relations with LENR scientists is central to IH operation.


    As oldguy points out, weasel words are the only truthful option for IH.


    IH weasel words here do not require them to have commercial LENR, or even for them to have something that will result in commercial LENR. They only require them to have something that they hope might one day result in commercial LENR. There is a big difference. As often the case arguments on this site hinge on the difference between research aspirations, oft disappointed, and commercial reality. Darden's comments make it quite clear this is a distinction IH are fully aware of.


    And the language you use is misleading. IH, according to the reading above, have done nothing reprehensible, and have certainly not stolen Rossi technology.


    Regards, THH


    NOTE: The quote above was wrongly attributed to Wyttenbach, error now corrected. Alan


    EDIT: apologies, THH.

    • Official Post

    And the language you use is misleading. IH, according to the reading above, have done nothing reprehensible, and have certainly not stolen Rossi technology.


    Honest, what is documented here:


    https://thenewfire.wordpress.c…merican-energy-companies/
    https://thenewfire.wordpress.c…une-150-energy-companies/
    https://thenewfire.wordpress.c…-house-the-complete-list/
    https://thenewfire.wordpress.c…eat-llc-nrg-energy-trace/
    https://thenewfire.wordpress.c…-a-copy-of-lugano-report/
    https://thenewfire.wordpress.c…-micro-grid-patent-trace/
    https://thenewfire.wordpress.c…ry-vs-leonardo-corp-ecat/


    is exactly what one would expect if someone tried to deceive their business partners to get the best profit by unfair means, or to displace an unwelcome competitor from the market.


    The opaque company braid, which is attracted by big energy corps, makes sense only if you have something to conceal. It would e.g. not make sense for Industrial Heat LLC concerning taxes, since they are registered in Delaware, so the only real intention of the international company web for this US company remains to conceal its meaning .


    Darden et.al are hard-hitting businessmen, acting under the cover of charity and they act on behalf of powerful from politics and business. There are wolves in the sheep's fleece and it is simply nonsensical to draw here the picture of the innocent lambs.


    Best regards
    Felix

  • Quote from THHuxley: “And the language you use is misleading. IH, according to the reading above, have done nothing reprehensible, and have certainly not stolen Rossi technology.”


    Honest, what is documented here:


    <a href="https://thenewfire.wordpress.com/lenr-ecat-the-fog-of-british-and-american-energy-companies/" class="externalURL" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a>…


    You are not addressing my argument.


    You are putting forward Sifferkoll speculation and false statements as fact. If you could reference directly what behaviour of IH does not fit the whiter than white "doing the best they can for LENR" view i stated above we could move forward by considering whether I agree with you or not, and why?

  • Quote

    This is your suspicion, because it has nothing to do with Sifferkoll and the facts are what they are, facts!


    I asked you to ante up with some facts, so we could discuss them. I'm still waiting. I agree, it has nothing to do with Sifferkoll so let's leave his stuff out of it.


    it is you, not I, who are claiming IH is behaving badly.

  • You assert that IH "have certainly not stolen Rossi technology".
    That leads to a paradox .


    I will simply ask? If they have stolen useful technology- WHERE IS IT?


    Why would a company formed to develop LENR just sit on technology when they could make
    vast profits by developing it and commercialize it.
    The World energy sector investment totals $68 trillion are estimated for 2015 to 2040.
    Even a 10% market penetration would be on the order of almost 7 trillion.
    That is nothing compared to just paying off Rossi.


    The obvious answer seems to be that we do not see IH engineering and manufacturing the technology
    because they do not have anything currently that is suitable and that Rossi's technology was either
    not transferred or was not up to the task.

    • Official Post

    it is you, not I, who are claiming IH is behaving badly.


    Read the links above and tell me if what was investigated there is 1. wrong and 2. corresponds to what you expect from a trustworthy business partner?


    The big picture that comes to my mind when reading, is that of a greedy pack which by all means try to get LENR technology under its control, no matter what it costs.


    Best regards
    Felix

  • Quote from THHuxley: “And the language you use is misleading. IH, according to the reading above, have done nothing reprehensible, and have certainly not stolen Rossi technology.”


    Honest, what is documented here:


    <a href="https://thenewfire.wordpress.com/lenr-ecat-the-fog-of-british-and-american-energy-companies/" class="externalURL" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"></a>…


    The linked document shows that Darden has a lot of connections to other business men. But I really can't see what's strange or suspicious about that. To me thenewfire is just a lot of stupid conspiracy theories with no proof at all of wrongdoing from IH.

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