The Energy Company Fog

  • Rossi v. Darden developments was started as a thread in which to report and discuss developments in Rossi. v. Darden. As commonly happens on lenr-forum.com, side discussions develop that become, ah, argumentative and distracting from the thread theme. One arose yesterday that reveals a major rift in the community and that is diagnostic of how some think about Rossi and Industrial Heat.


    Rossi v. Darden developments


    There, Rends wrote this:


    THHuxley wrote:


    This was from: Rossi v. Darden developments and it was referring to a claim that the use of "weasel language" by Industrial Heat was somehow a clue of something Bad. As Jed points out, this would be routine in science and sometimes in business. "Weasel" means that hedges are included that cover the possibility of reality possibly being different than a bald statement like "The technology never worked, never has worked, and never will work." Be that as it may, and harmless as this was, Rends then wrote:



    "Exactly what one would expect"? That is an extraordinarily complex picture created by a pile of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence, the kind of evidence commonly asserted by conspiracy theorists. They will give ten reasons why the Earth must be flat and that the claim it is round is a NASA conspiracy. Each reason might be weak in some way, but, hey, there are ten of them! They can't all be wrong!


    [see the original post for the URLs; I will examine each of these in turn. And conspiracy theorists like Sifferkoll hate this. "Wall of text! Paid FUD!" God forbid that someone would actually look at the evidence! No, any sane person, any self-respecting supporter of Rossi and All Good will look at those pages, and not worry about silly details, and will collapse in a pile of angry frustration, that so many companies and so much money is being spent to further a nefarious plan to ruin Rossi. Look at the proof! 7 pages!]


    Quote

    The opaque company braid, which is attracted by big energy corps, makes sense only if you have something to conceal. It would e.g. not make sense for Industrial Heat LLC concerning taxes, since they are registered in Delaware, so the only real intention of the international company web for this US company remains to conceal its meaning .


    So the first argument here is that because this is complicated, there must be some hidden motive. Of course there are hidden motives, these are human beings and human companies, and not everything is open. But what is hidden? What does Delaware have to do with it? Industrial Heat is an LLC, which means pass-through taxation (and deductions). LLCs for risky enterprises is common, because losses may be passed through to the investors, who then can deduct them under even better terms than they could deduct charitable donations, at least that is how I understand it.


    The world is complicated. This is looking at the energy industry, which has a global value of $68 trillion investment over 25 years. That is going to involve a huge number of companies and people -- and linkages. As I say above, I will examine each of those pages cited as if they were proof of wrongdoing. What is actually there? THH has asked, perhaps Rends will answer. However, this is an old debate tactic, to point to a vast pile of evidence, without being specific, and then accuse someone else of avoiding "the obvious truth."


    Quote

    Darden et.al are hard-hitting businessmen, acting under the cover of charity and they act on behalf of powerful from politics and business. There are wolves in the sheep's fleece and it is simply nonsensical to draw here the picture of the innocent lambs.


    They do not claim to be a charity. They do claim to have a motivation to support the environment, which is part of what Cherokee is about, and they learned how to do well doing good with Cherokee, taking on risky projects, failing with a few (typically losing $25 million on a project that fails) and then winning with some, making very substantial profits overall. The suspicion here is that the are "acting on behalf of [the] powerful," which betrays an entire world-view, hostile, paranoid, suspicious. Anyone who operates on a world scale is going to be cooperating with the "powerful." Those who reject the powerful as greedy and corrupt generally fail to accomplish anything, and when, somehow, they succeed, they often end up going more harm than what they hated. Hatred is not how we build a new world that works for everyone.


    Where does "hard-hitting businessmen" come from? Where have they been "hard-hitting"? Example? Yeah, now, being sued for over $250 million, they have responded with hardball. Was something else expected? Flowers?


    No picture was drawn of "innocent lambs." I have claimed that IH knew exactly what they were doing, they were playing a double game, one that tested the Rossi technology, thoroughly, and if it had worked, they'd have been fabulously successful. If Rossi had delivered technology, if he wasn't misleading from 2011 on, we would already have devices on the market. Remarkably, even if IH was a bunch of greedy bastards, trying to stop him, Rossi could still have arranged the release of products to market, particularly in Sweden and elsewhere. They could not have stopped him, and, in fact, Rossi has not claimed that they attempted to do so, other than through his spurious claims of improper patent behavior (which were just plain silly.)


    The double game is that they did not depend on Rossi, and they protected themselves.

  • quote='Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax','https://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/4456-The-Energy-Company-Fog/?postID=39781#post39781']They do not claim to be a charity. They do claim to have a motivation to support the environment, which is part of what Cherokee is about, and they learned how to do well doing good with Cherokee, taking on risky projects, failing with a few (typically losing $25 million on a project that fails) and then winning with some, making very substantial profits overall.


    Only insiders talk alike..


    The suspicion here is that they are "acting on behalf of [the] powerful," which betrays an entire world-view, hostile, paranoid, suspicious. Anyone who operates on a world scale is going to be cooperating with the "powerful." Those who reject the powerful as greedy and corrupt generally fail to accomplish anything, and when, somehow, they succeed, they often end up going more harm than what they hated. Hatred is not how we build a new world that works for everyone.


    ABD talks in monolog. Either he serves the powerful or he hates the ones who contradict him...


    [/quote]

    No picture was drawn of "innocent lambs." I have claimed that IH knew exactly what they were doing, they were playing a double game, one that tested the Rossi technology, thoroughly, and if it had worked, they'd have been fabulously successful.


    Yeas: They (IH) organized the distorted Lugano test. They, for a long time, kept the report private for ( their own) patent reasons.


    If Rossi had delivered technology, if he wasn't misleading from 2011 on, we would already have devices on the market. Remarkably, even if IH was a bunch of greedy bastards, trying to stop him, Rossi could still have arranged the release of products to market, particularly in Sweden and elsewhere. They could not have stopped him, and, in fact, Rossi has not claimed that they attempted to do so, other than through his spurious claims of improper patent behavior (which were just plain silly.)


    @@ABD: If IH ( the Cherokee guys..) would have done only the smallest piece of real work, then You wouldn't write/hate since months...


    Investors are responsible for their investment especially if they own it! But in the vocabulary of investors like IH this word has been crossed out! IH screwed up the Lugano test, which used their – built by IH !! - reactors. Stop accusing others...

  • continued from The Energy Company Fog


    First page shown in the Rends post:
    The New Fire: LENR ECAT – The Fog of British and American Energy Companies


    “Derive happiness in oneself from a good day’s work, from illuminating the fog that surrounds us.” -- Henri Matisse


    A fog is a mass of floating water droplets, and when a fog is illuminated, it conceals the solid reality underneath it.


    On this page is a diagram showing purported links between companies and people. This is, of course, a highly selected set of "energy companies." There would be thousands. The page has the line:


    "They are producing a lot of fog for a device they claim it does not work."


    Who is "they"? Very little on that page is the work of Industrial Heat, most has nothing to do with IH, as with the teacher I'll mention below. I notice that Rossi has a nice little box on the left, as if to show how simple his work is by comparison. However, the reality is not quite so simple. Only one of Rossi's companies is shown. As well, Ampenergo was his U.S. licensee, and has apparently received millions of dollars in payments from the Rossi-IH Agreement. Yet it is shown as an investor in Industrial Heat, which is not true, by the way, that diagram is badly misleading. Ampenergo is an investor in IH Holdings International, Ltd., which owns Industrial Heat. Rossi has relationships with companies around the world. This means practically nothing.


    There is a Teaching Fellow with a link to a resume, shown on the page. His field is electrical and electronic engineering. The resume page has this information as to employment prior to his academic career:


    Quote

    British Gas. Study to explore potential applications of fuzzy logic in gas consumer appliances.


    This, then, is used in the chart to connect him with British Gas. But why him? If one doesn't know the mess here, it would be purely mysterious. This fellow wrote a critique of the Lugano report that has received wide attention. There is no apparent connection between him and Industrial Heat other than that. His outing by Planet Rossi, pointing to his real-life academic position, appears to have led to his withdrawal from communication.


    British Gas has no apparent connection to Industrial Heat. To conspiracy theorists, the thinnest of connections are enough to prove that something nefarious is going on.


    I was curious about the link shown in the chart between IPH Holdings BV and European Generating SARL, which is then linked to NRG, an energy giant. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRG_Energy


    From the list of interested parties, document 21, Industrial Heat became a subsidiary (apparently wholly-owned) of IH Holding International, Ltd. This is the company with all those shareholders, including Ampenergo and including two trusts that put in $50 million, i.e., Woodford. IHHI was formed, it appears to me, to receive that investment and IHHI became the major investment vehicle for LENR research in general. IHHI is not focused on Rossi technology.


    Industrial Heat assigned the License obtained from Rossi to IPH International BV, which is a Netherlands company that is a defendant in Rossi v. Darden. IPH International BV is a subsidiary of IPHBV Holdings Ltd, a United Kingdom private limited company. There is information on IPHBV Holdings, Ltd, at https://beta.companieshouse.go…y/09512550/filing-history. There appears to be only one shareholder, and it is IHHI.


    So there is really only one overall company, IHHI, and that's where the money is. IH is apparently a wholly-owned subsidiary, dealing with LENR research in the U.S., it seems. IPHBV Holdings, which holds the Rossi Licence, is also wholly owned. This structure protects the major investment made by Woodford from risk from Rossi claims, because IHHI was not a party to the agreement; rather, it owns a party to the agreement, but will not be liable for debts of that party. IHHI can, essentially, lose its investment in IH, nothing more than that.


    This appears to be very normal business. Oh, as to the connection with NRG: http://www.e-catworld.com/2014…nnection-seems-disproven/
    That was in 2014. The connection with European Generating SARL and thus NRG appears to have been an error, possibly due to a coincidence of names with the management service that IPH Holdings BV uses. (This is very common. It may be little more than a mail drop, serving as a registered agent, making sure that local paperwork is filed.)


    Fog, indeed.


    Anyone doing serious research, scientific or otherwise, needs to be aware of confirmation bias. If one is looking to prove something, one will find evidence, and since it proves something that one already believes, one may fail to examine it carefully. Very common. The conspiracy theorist, seeing "all this evidence" becomes totally convinced, it can become practically impervious to fact.







  • continued. This is Rends' second link: https://thenewfire.wordpress.c…une-150-energy-companies/


    It gets off to a bad start, repeating the claimed connection with NRG already covered as spurious.


    NRG is huge, revenues about $15 billion per year, and finding some connection between it and many other people and companies may not be difficult. The page goes on to look at a Darden patent for "Microgrid power generation & management."


    The theory seems to be that Darden or his "bosses" are heavily invested in existing energy sources, and are attempting to protect them by suppressing LENR.


    However, this patent would be a sane part of the transition to LENR, and, by a quick examination, uses local generation of power, which could be from many different sources. Early adopters of LENR electric power generation will sell power to the grid, or to microgrids.


    There is nothing suspicious about Darden being involved with many new energy technologies.


    The really crazy idea here is that a trillion dollar technology would be suppressed in order to protect multibillion-dollar investments. And Darden doesn't have multibillion-dollar investments, except in Cherokee, which would not be harmed at all by LENR, it would be helped.


    The page brings up the names of very large energy companies, like Exelon, but does not actually make connections back to Darden.


    It's incoherent. If there is something there, it is very, very poorly explained.

  • Continued ...


    The third page: https://thenewfire.wordpress.c…-house-the-complete-list/


    Summary. Darden apparently visited the U.S. President in January, 2012. There is then speculation that he was invited three other times. No information is given showing that he actually was there. There is information about other visitors. Nothing of any substance except to a paranoid mind that can seen plans for a nuclear submarine in tea leaves.


    The fourth page: https://thenewfire.wordpress.c…eat-llc-nrg-energy-trace/


    Hot news: "David W. Crane and Cherokee Investment Partners CEO Thomas Darden know each other at least since 2010 http://fortuneconferences.com/…rmgreen2010/speakers.html" That evidence? They both spoke at a conference in California then. This is evidence of what? It doesn't even show that they spoke to each other. But maybe they did.


    and then there are connections made with Lockheed Martin and NASA. It's all one big conspiracy!


    Hint: it is. It is called Humanity. We actually talk with each other and make plans. I know that is strange to basement-dwellers, but there is a whole world out here.


    The fifth page: https://thenewfire.wordpress.c…-a-copy-of-lugano-report/


    OMG! The 2016 IH Patent is a copy of the Lugano Report!


    I went around and around with this with a patent attorney. He thought that patent totally sucked, very poor work. I said that I thought this is what happened: the Lugano report was about to come out, and there was possibly some technology there that if it was not in a patent application before that report, would unpatentable because of prior publication. So an attorney was told to slap it together, and did. That patent was designed to protect the technology. The original filing date, as I recall, was before the Lugano report was issued. The rest of the process into 2016 was just routine. This is basically meaningless, but, of course, our theorists will make much of it, I'm sure.


    The sixth page looks at the microgrid patent and talks about "the trace." https://thenewfire.wordpress.c…-micro-grid-patent-trace/


    This is a tool which, in the hands of the paranoid, will generate reams of "evidence." Basically, Google all the names, look for cross-links, and with human society, you will always find them. Lots of them if the people move in more or less the same circles. The key finding here is that Mazzarino of Cherokee is involved with solar power. Who knew that people interested in the environment might be involved with solar power? What a shock!


    Of course, Cherokee does not own Industrial Heat and put no money into it. Darden is CEO at Cherokee, that's the connection. Basically, because these people know each other and work together on this or that, therefore there is a conspiracy to suppress LENR!


    In fact, of course, Rossi received $11.5 million and more from Industrial Heat. They did not sue him, he sued them. They did not stop him from commercializing his technology. They did not prevent him from continuing development. They did not stand in the way of any agreements in Europe. They did nothing to stop Rossi except to not give him $89 million that, it seems apparent, he did not earn (for many reasons, both substantial and technical). They did not attack him, he attacked them. Their response has been what was necessary to defend themselves, not "the solar power industry."


    The seventh page: https://thenewfire.wordpress.c…ry-vs-leonardo-corp-ecat/
    "Conclusion – It is US & EU Solar Power Industry vs. Leonardo Corp. ECAT"


    One of the claims:

    Quote

    It is ultimately a question of plausibility: Does it makes sense at the same time (here in 2012) on the one hand invest billions US$ in solar energy and on the other hand invest hundreds of millions US$ in LENR Technology?


    Darden has not invested billions. That was one of Sifferkolls brain farts. There is a consulting company that advises some companies with total investment of over a billion. Darden is connected in some way with that company, I think as an advisor. This is far, far from being invested to that level.


    Nor did Darden invest hundreds of millions in LENR technology. Rather, he, with his company, probably invested about $20 million. If the technology transfer had worked, if he had been able to make devices that worked when his people tested them, he could easily have raised far more money, and, yes, he'd have needed to raise hundreds of millions, at least, to get a product to market (or to see licensees doing that). But without that independent testing, he could not raise the money, period. Rossi made his "GPT" more important than technology transfer, if he had a technology. Technology transfer was a crucial part of the Agreement, but Rossi did not even mention it in his Complaint, did not claim to have fully disclosed the IP.


    I saw this frequently with Sifferkoll's rants. He would see a page, misread it, and then build it into his theory.


    Whoever wrote those New Fire pages is not sane. They do not show what they purport to show. The writer is not able to discriminate between fantasy, possibility, and reality.


  • Darden apparently visited the U.S. President in January, 2012


    As first noted on ecn, and then even straightened out by ecw, it was without much doubt Tom Darden III, the son of IH President Tom Darden II , who accompanied Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie during their visit of the White House.
    Thomas F. Darden III is the executive director of Brad Pitt’s Make it Right Foundation, which does philanthropic work in New Orleans (Rebuild houses after Hurricane Katrina).
    http://www.e-catworld.com/2016…barack-obama-in-jan-2012/
    No foundation to connect this visit with LENR.
    http://www.justjared.com/2012/…d-pitt-white-house-visit/