Posts by THHuxleynew

Quote from Mark U

Look at recent 'science' papers : the vaccinated spread covid just as readily as the unvaccinated. So what could possibly be the reason that policy makers are even now about to kick people out of the national guard and navy, etc, for not being vaccinated? Is it Jed level uninformed fear, and/or is it spite, and/or is it something in the vaccine that is undisclosed and is intended to fulfil some other purpose?

Understanding the irrational isn't easy.

I agree - I find it difficult to understand how anyone could have the irrational level of paranoia implied by your last hypothesis.

The trilemma is however invalid because you have left out the more obvious answers.

• For services that want workers who stay healthy, vaccines that reduce the severity of COVID are important even if they do not prevent infection.
• It is also true that vaccines prevent infection (a decent amount for a few months). Given maybe yearly boosters that is not great, but still better than nothing.
• And regulations tend to be sticky - it takes time and very definite evidence to quantify how much less effective vaccines are against a new variant and therefore change them.

I agree like many regulations this looks a bit out-of-date - but only till October when the US is due to have a vaccine with greater effectiveness against omicron.

It seems weird to me that more than two years after the start of COVID we are still using vaccines targeted at original COVID.

But - hey - don't believe me. Maybe the vaccines are designed to put stealth socialist brain cells into us all that will erupt at the next election and steal it?

THH

Quote from Fm1

Birx also suspects China covered up the release of the disease. She also suspects the incredible transmissibility of the pathogen links to the laboratory genesis. “In laboratories, you grow the virus in human cells, allowing it to adapt more. Each time it passes through human cells, it becomes more adapted,” she said. Birx went on to say lives could have been saved if China had simply admitted the virus started in a lab.

Birx does not seem well-informed - or even logical.

While COVID may have come from accidental release of what was borderline gain-of-function research at Wuhan, combining with wild virusses, and certainly if that had happened there would be very strong pressure in Chjina for nothing to be admitted, what was released was not highly transmissible. We saw over 2 yaers of evolutionary selection an billions of hosts (not a lab) it slowly become more transmissable, each step and improvement:

original -> alpha -> delta -> omicron

Now, with omicron, I don't think it is getting more transmissable, just like Flu we are saying variants people have less recent (or no) immunity to.

Quote from Fm1

Covid severity and long COVID is the result of vitamin deficency.

I have seen no evidence to support this.

Quote from Fm1

Globally, one in five deaths are associated with poor diet

I do however agree with this.

However most of the poor diet problems are related to over-consumption of food. This is exacerbated by the highly processed nature of our diet.

There is very little evidence that we would have much of this health burden from consumption of mostly processed food at the correct level (so no-one was too fat or too thin). Of course, processed food is not as good for good for us as a better diet, but the thing we know which is deadly is overconsumption.

I also agree that processed food makes overconsumption very difficult to avoid.

THH

Quote from Wyttenbach

According to official UK data the vaccinated did contain CoV-19 up to 5x more often than unvaccinated... This falsifies your personal assumption...

Judging the face of the girl it was in the end phase of a chemo therapy and the parents have been asked to do some good...

No. The girl was 100% healthy (and a martial arts enthusiast). As it said in the article.

Quote from Wyttenbach

According to official UK data the vaccinated did contain CoV-19 up to 5x more often than unvaccinated... This falsifies your personal assumption...

I think for the sake of this thread I had better stop answering you: your statement here is vague, and I have recently posted a detailed summary of why it is not true (assuming it means what I suspect you want it to mean).

Anyway - we have covered all that stuff a long time ago many times over, so no need to repeat it now.

As Zeus46 has pointed out colourfully: betting your personal opinion against a lot of experts who have all looked at open data and agree with each other but disagree with you is probably not a clever life strategy.

Quote from Wyttenbach

fake cases reported after a CoV-19 infection

I hardly think the word fake here, used without justification, is very polite. It implies a major conspiracy of the medical establishment to mislead the population. Anyway, my point was that myocarditis induced by viral infections (including COVID) is not mild, and I linked an example of a healthy unvaccinated 16-year-old who died from COVID-induced myocarditis. One of the casualties of a UK vaccine rollout not quite fast enough.

Quote from Wyttenbach

turbo cancer (1-2 months) that now kills ten thousands of older vaccinated....

That is a disease I have never heard of, but it reminds me vaguely of Pascal - which I am sure was not your intention. Perhaps you could, very politely, cite some direct evidence.

Or, maybe you are just referring to that fact that cancer, a major killer of older people, does indeed kill 10s of 1000s of vaccinated people (since almost everyone in the world is now vaccinated).

Quote from Mark U

Where were the deaths? Almost half were In nursing homes. It is well known that Sweden has much larger senior care facilities than other Scandinavian countries, and, like Canada, senior care was abysmal in circumstances where residents and staff were sick with Covid. Sick seniors were hardly even given oxygen. This has very little to do with schools and businesses remaining open, or masking. Other factors were at play, even the timing of people returning to Sweden's from vacation in early 2020. They were hit hard, early.

I agree that other factors were at play. That applies to all cross-country or cross-time or even cross-district (e.g. comparing states in the US). You need very sophisticated analysis to even have a chance of working out what was what.

The one thing you can do fairly easily is to look at COVID IFR, and note it is much lower post-vaccination than pre-vaccination. From which you can say that any strategy that minimises pre-vaccination infections will be doing better. Which was always the justification for lockdowns - though it did not always work.

Quote from Mark U

And this doesn't even capture the unseen damage that is done, not to the heart muscle per se but to the nerve cells that are critical to proper heart functioning. The heart even has its own little nervous system, a little brain of sorts.

While this is very evocative, and perhaps even interesting, it is not an answer to the fact that mild myocarditis is indeed mild, and recovery from it is complete, with no scarring.

I do agree that not-mild myocarditis, for example the deadly (see my link above) disease that is sometimes induced by COVID infection, is, well, deadly.

GBNews is basically US-style talkshows and inaccuracy come to the UK!

For example (I guess liked by Mark U):

A surgeon made several incorrect claims about Covid-19 vaccine on GB News - Full Fact

Ahmad Malik has misused various different sources to falsely suggest that the vaccines are dangerous.

fullfact.org

That is a good link. It also debunks FM1's misleading preprint study (the one with the misleading headline, if you remember):

As its title suggests, this research did not simply compare vaccinated people with unvaccinated people. It compared vaccinated people with unvaccinated people who had previously tested positive for Covid. In other words, it sought to compare protection from vaccines with protection from prior infection.

It said: “After adjusting for comorbidities, we found a 27.02-fold risk… for symptomatic breakthrough infection [in vaccinated people] as opposed to symptomatic reinfection [of unvaccinated but previously infected people].” The “eight times higher risk” mentioned by Mr Malik seems to be a reference to a table about hospitalisation risk, which shows vaccinated people being more likely to be admitted to hospital after testing positive for Covid than previously infected but not vaccinated people.

The paper also says that people who had previously been infected and received one dose of the vaccine were about half as likely to catch Covid, compared with those who had been infected but not vaccinated.

This research is observational and has some limitations, which mean it may not give an accurate picture of the effects of the vaccines, especially as they might be used in the UK now. In particular, it does not look at the effects of boosters or the Omicron variant.

Quote from Fm1

And also, there is no such thing as mild myocarditis. It is the scaring of the heart tissue and can lead to tissue tear later in life!

My understanding is that mild myocarditis resolves completely with no damage or scarring.

I think you mean that myocarditis can cause scarring.

Myocarditis: Symptoms and Treatment for Inflammation of the Heart

Myocarditis is a disease marked by the inflammation of heart muscle. Learn about the symptoms, diagnosis, and treatment of myocarditis.

www.healthline.com

Myocarditis is a disease where the heart muscle, known as the myocardium, becomes inflamed. This muscle contracts and relaxes to pump blood in and out of the heart and to the rest of the body.

When the myocardium becomes inflamed, its ability to pump blood becomes less effective. This causes problems like an abnormal heartbeat, chest pain, and trouble breathing.

In extreme cases, it can cause blood clots leading to a heart attack or stroke, damage to the heart, or death.

Normally, inflammation is your body’s response to a wound or infection. For example, when you cut your finger, the tissue around the cut quickly swells up and turns red. These are classic signs of inflammation, during which the cells of your immune system rush to the site to begin repairs.

But sometimes the immune system or another cause of inflammation leads to myocarditis.

Keep reading to learn more about myocarditis, what can cause it, and how it’s diagnosed and treated.

Does that mean I am allowed to be very not civil here?

Quote from Mark U

Israeli study of almost 200,000 Covid positive cases and 600,000 non positive control cases, all before vaccines were introduced, concluded that Covid infection was not associated with increased myocarditis and pericarditis.

https://www.mdpi.com/2077-0383/11/8/2219/htm

Post COVID-19 infection was not associated with either myocarditis (aHR 1.08; 95% CI 0.45 to 2.56) or pericarditis (aHR 0.53; 95% CI 0.25 to 1.13). We did not observe an increased incidence of neither pericarditis nor myocarditis in adult patients recovering from COVID-19 infection.

In other words, the Covid vaccines deserve a special place for causing heart damage. Even the Novavax vaccine may be associated with heart inflammation.

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Actually, as always, the devil lies in the detail. And the OPs summary above shows graphically how antivaxxer propaganda can be started (perfectly innocently) by people posting single studies without appraisal or thorough comparison with other work.

(1) the comparison here is between in-patient referral for a patient with severe covid symptoms, and out-patient referral for someone without covid. myocarditis and pericarditus diagnosis rates are notoriously variable 9e.g. between countries) and it seems likley referral rate would be different in these two cases.

(2) The confidence intervals are very wide here - so it is not a sensitive test.

A better study (because it used self-controlled case study technique) comparing vaccination events and sars-cov-2 infection events can be found here:

Risks of myocarditis, pericarditis, and cardiac arrhythmias associated with COVID-19 vaccination or SARS-CoV-2 infection - Nature Medicine

A self-controlled case series using individual-patient-level data from over 38 million people aged 16 years and over, reveals an increased risk of myocarditis…

www.nature.com

We found increased risks of myocarditis associated with the first dose of ChAdOx1 and BNT162b2 vaccines and the first and second doses of the mRNA-1273 vaccine over the 1–28 days postvaccination period, and after a SARS-CoV-2 positive test. We estimated an extra two (95% confidence interval (CI) 0, 3), one (95% CI 0, 2) and six (95% CI 2, myocarditis events per 1 million people vaccinated with ChAdOx1, BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273, respectively, in the 28 days following a first dose and an extra ten (95% CI 7, 11) myocarditis events per 1 million vaccinated in the 28 days after a second dose of mRNA-1273. This compares with an extra 40 (95% CI 38, 41) myocarditis events per 1 million patients in the 28 days following a SARS-CoV-2 positive test. We also observed increased risks of pericarditis and cardiac arrhythmias following a positive SARS-CoV-2 test. Similar associations were not observed with any of the COVID-19 vaccines, apart from an increased risk of arrhythmia following a second dose of mRNA-1273. Subgroup analyses by age showed the increased risk of myocarditis associated with the two mRNA vaccines was present only in those younger than 40.

Sort of the opposite of the OPs (less easy to interpret) study.

Summary: the mRNA vaccines lead to myocarditis and pericarditis risk - but covid infections lead to a greater risk of these things.

And, an anecdote - yes covid-unvaccinated children have died of this after COVID infection:

Portsmouth girl, 15, dies of Covid on day she was due jab

Jorja Halliday, from Portsmouth, was due to have her coronavirus vaccination on the day she died.

www.bbc.co.uk

THH

Quote from Mark U

BMJ Letter to the Editor from a Swedish doctor:

https://www.bmj.com/content/377/bmj.o1197/rr-3

Summary : The Covid Adenovirus vector vaccines in combination with immunity - stunting lockdowns may be the cause of the surge in childhood hepatitis.

There have been a number of proposals for what causes this - since there is no correlation with covid vaccination the idea that adenovirus-vector vaccines (which use de-activated adenoviruses that cannot replicate in human cells) spread to children for vaccinated parents cause this is in many ways low probability.

Here is some background on proposed explanations:

Science | AAAS

And, guess what! Covid-19 looks to remain a popular explanation.

The debate is not academic. It “has everything to do with whether [a] patient stays alive or not,” Jalali said in an interview. If adenovirus is damaging the liver, the powerful antiviral drug cidofovir could be deployed in urgent cases. But if the liver damage results from a sustained immune reaction, immune-suppressing drugs could be lifesaving. You had better not be wrong, Jalali says. “If you mistakenly assume some infectious process is actively causing liver failure, you can’t go near that patient with immune-suppressive drugs,” because they can hobble the body’s ability to fight an active viral infection.

Petter Brodin, a pediatric immunologist and pediatrician at Imperial College London and Moshe Arditi, a pediatric infectious disease physician at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center, last week published a hypothesis knitting the two viruses together.

They point out that to date, 18 of 18 cases tested in the United Kingdom harbored adenovirus-41, a strain of adenovirus that infects the gut, and that SARS-CoV-2 has been found to establish gut reservoirs that persist after acute infection. Brodin and Arditi proposed that after adenovirus infects the gut, SARS-CoV-2 might act as a coconspirator. A small section of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein that has been shown to prompt a broad, nonspecific activation of T cells might supercharge the immune response to adenovirus, and the rogue immune response might then attack the liver. Such a mechanism, in which a piece of the coronavirus spike protein triggers an immune overreaction, has been implicated in the serious inflammation found in MIS-C.

Brodin urges clinicians investigating children with the unexplained hepatitis to collect stool samples that could confirm intestinal reservoirs of SARS-CoV-2 and test for a hyperactivated immune system. If the hypothesis is confirmed—and Brodin stresses it has not been—he says immunosuppressive therapy would be appropriate. “[If] it’s an out-of-control activation of the immune system, then you need to be very aggressive in shutting down that immune response.”

Jalali, for his part, is worried by a preprint, not yet peer reviewed, posted on 14 May by scientists at Case Western Reserve University. The paper suggests the hepatitis cases reported so far are the tip of an iceberg of liver damage in children following COVID-19 infections. The researchers compared the electronic records of 246,000 1- to-10-year-old children who contracted COVID-19 between March 2020 and March 2022 with those of 551,000 children who contracted other respiratory infections in that period. In the months after infection, the COVID-19 infected children were 2.5 times more likely to have elevated levels of enzymes that indicate liver damage, and 3.3 times more likely to have elevated bilirubin, a byproduct of the liver’s breakdown of red blood cells that can cause jaundice. Elevated levels can be a sign of impaired liver function.

And a recent update:

Mystery child hepatitis outbreak passes 1,000 recorded cases, says WHO

In addition to tackling COVID and the monkeypox outbreak, the UN health agency has also been keeping a close eye on the puzzling spread of hepatitis in…

news.un.org

Also - some digging on whether the adenoviruses isolated from children with hepatitis bear any relationship to the vaccine adenoviruses:

Third, the specific adenovirus that has been identified in multiple hepatitis cases in children is human adenovirus type 41. The Johnson & Johnson vaccine uses a modified type 26 virus. (The AstraZeneca Oxford COVID-19 vaccine, which also uses a viral vector design, is only authorized for adults in places such as the U.K., and uses a chimpanzee adenovirus.)

In summary - this seems about right for mechanism:

“The leading hypothesis at present is that the hepatitis is linked to adenovirus,” a U.K. technical report from April 25 reads. “There may be a cofactor causing a normal adenovirus to produce a more severe clinical presentation in young children, such as increased susceptibility due to reduced exposure during the pandemic, prior SARS-CoV-2 or other infection, or a yet undiscovered coinfection or toxin. Alternatively, there may have been emergence of a novel adenovirus strain with altered characteristics.”

Although we have covid-19 as a possible cofactor, and lockdowns as a cofactor, covid-19 vaccine as a cofactor looks a big stretch and so tenuous I doubt anyone without a predisposition to look for unexpected dangers in vaccines would jump on it.

Good luck with that!

Quote from Fm1

Doesn't seem wrong now after the posts I put up on nk cells or did you forget what I previously posted that you commented on.

That makes the (hardly surprising) link between covid and nk cell deficit.

My point was that the link which is not made causally is that vit D deficiency causes NK cell deficit. And if it did, you would expect Vit D deficiency to make many infections more likely.

I think the evidence for vit d deficit => get more infections is marginal. I don't rule it out, but have not seen anything other than correlation. Evidence for high vit D levels helping reduce infections is even weaker - like you would not expect it from any of the above.

Personally I make sure I am not vit D deficient.

THH

Shane D. This thread is much more readable if you block W, as I have done for a long time. You could block me too if my posts are annoying?

Then you can concentrate on AR.

THH

Quote from Mark U

BMJ Letter to the Editor from a Swedish doctor:

https://www.bmj.com/content/377/bmj.o1197/rr-3

Summary : The Covid Adenovirus vector vaccines in combination with immunity - stunting lockdowns may be the cause of the surge in childhood hepatitis.

Blast from the Past (2009)?

Swine Flu Vaccine Fearmongering

Fear is a curious thing. It often bears no relation to the actual risk of what we fear. When swine flu first broke out in Mexico, people were understandably…

sciencebasedmedicine.org

It don't seem to matter what vaccine it is, there are a whole range of (some perfectly reasonable) concerns. And, very predictable fearmongering from the liked of Joe Mercola and the health food lobby.

The idea that vaccines, by enhancing specific immune response, do not deliver as broad an immunity as infection is not fearmongering in the case of mRNA or even subunit vaccines. I'd just point out:

For flu - vaccination has reduced hospital admissions by 75%

For covid - the real-world evidence is that

• (even an badly matched mRNA vaccine) delivers reduction in serious disease against omicron
• Survivor's immunity does not deliver much protection unless the disease was severe - TANSTAAFL
• Survivor's immunity is.... survivor's immunity. Best to gte some protection before needing to survive.

Engwall (from 2009) was advocating this idea that vaccines may do more harm than good due to their neglecting T-cell immunity. It is not unreasonable to consider this, just that it seems wrong:

Cell-mediated immunity neglected in influenza vaccination strategies

Flu vaccines have greatly reduced deaths from Flu. This is (when you look carefully at the figures) personal protection not just population-wide - where you might increase personal risk of getting the disease if exposed whilst overall decreasing risk by decreasing exposure.

I'm glad that views like those of Engwall, even if she does seem to generate varied and uniformly anti-vaccine speculation - get exposure in the medical literature as hypotheses to be checked.

A pity when they get weaponised as antivaxxer propaganda: given they are so highly speculative and not backed by evidence.

Quote from Fm1

Vitamin D deficiency correlates with a reduced number of natural killer cells in intensive care unit (ICU) and non-ICU patients with COVID-19 pneumonia

Just to note that correlation does imply causation, and we know that many illnesses result in low vitamin D levels. I think there may have been some RCTs testing vit D supplementation in COVID patients that would provide definite info? Or maybe other drugs (ivermectin etc) are reckoned a better bet. We should have international coordination, instead of 4 different trials all looking at ivermectin.

Quote from Fm1

Putative roles of vitamin D in modulating immune response and immunopathology associated with COVID-19

It is definitely a better bet to try to change the immunomodulation that covid does, than to find an antiviral. I agree Vit D has possibilities here - as do a lot of othrer things!

I missed this clear statement, which deserves to be answered.

Quote from Edo

Also, I read again that popular word... "Antivaxxer". How to call you then as the "opposing party" pro-vaxxer? meaning a shot for all mandatory, Because you know all those bodies and their specific biochemistry? Well I would argue that is quite evil and stupid to do. Also it infringes peoples sovereignty, Also it violates therefore the oath Doctors take (first do no harm).

All medicines and diseases work differently for different people. We take the medicines that on average reduce harm. A doctor who prescribes a medicine will occasionally find it does harm. they are not therefore violating their oath as long as the expected outcome taking was better than that not taking. Vaccines are allowed when the regulators believe they will do more good than harm to the individuals who take them. For example 15/100,000 NSAID/Aspirin users die of gastro-intestinal side effects. Are you saying then that aspirin or NSAIDs should never be prescribed by doctors?

Quote from Edo

Also it infringes peoples sovereignty

You are showing the rabid US political reaction to vaccines. Vaccines infringe no-one's sovereignty. I agree, if vaccine use is mandatory, then that is a restriction on a person's bodily autonomy (I think that is what you meant?). But the arguments about safety of not of vaccines have no relationship (should have no relationship) to different arguments about whether vaccine uptake should be forced on people.

You (and others here) are arguing with me as though the two things are the same. They are not. When have I ever argued that people should be forced to take vaccines? It is a deep and interesting political argument when if ever should bodily autonomy be over-ridden. Both left and right of the political spectrum argue that bodily autonomy should be overridden in different circumstances. Consider and contrast the debates on vaccination, contraception, abortion, euthanasia. Anyway please keep that debate out of arguments about vaccine safety.

Also, you can for sure put me in that group, I have made up my mind after all these years of 'pandemic". I am Anti vax per definition, unless there is a good medical reason to do so for an individual.

As I said above, at least in the UK, the people who regulate vaccines only allow their use when they think there is good medical reason for individuals to take them. Specifically the risks to the individual must be less taking the vaccine than not taking it. By your definition here the UK regulators are antivaxxers. It is therefore very different from the way I use the word.

And then only for the non-mrna types.

You believe, it seems, that contrary to the cautious opinion of UK regulators, your personal risk taking mRNA vaccines is higher than it would be if you did not take them. That is your privilege. The UK is currently struggling with some 5% of the population like you who refuse to take covid vaccines and clog up our hospitals when they catch omicrom BA 5. (Not all of them - just 1% or so. But that is enough to prevent people who have heart attacks getting emergency medical treatment. It is also not much fun for the hospitalised covid sufferers). You have swallowed antivaxxer propaganda on this hook line and sinker. It makes you an antivaxxer only if you propagate such views to others claiming competence to do so.

I think the https://www.grand-jury.net/ has more than proven that there is no actual Corona virus variant something something, A PCR test could not even distinguish types, let alone if it picks up a flue, or normal cold from some dead left over material. It is a complete HOAX and actual conspiracy played out over us.

OK - this is an antivaxxer meme very easily rebutted by genetic sequencing (which we do a lot of in the UK). I wonder if you know about that? There is also real-world anecdotal evidence. Here in the UK we have an omicron BA 4 & 5 surge (5% of population currently infected). Most of the people getting infected now were previously infected with covid - many only 3 months ago. "Natural" immunity does better than that against the same strain.

Quote from Edo

Please at the least regardless of where you stand, please stop using this nasty technique calling opposing view Anti this and that. It has no place in a normal grown-up debate.

I do not call the opposing view (if it is a view) an antivaxxer. I reserve that for those who argue - like you do here - arguments that are clearly and provably false - like that covid strains do not exist - or (you don't argue this but many others do) that more vaccinated people than unvaccinated in hopistals => vaccinated are less safe from covid than unvaccinated.

Before throwing data, statistics and opinions at me, at least do me the curtesy of watching the GrandJury process, that way you would be informed about the arguments and facts that I adhere to. So I will not respond to things trying to convince me otherwise, I have seen this whole process and have judged as a public jury member, meaning I made up my mind and will stick to this position. I have seen and learned more that enough to know that I will never ever take that shot whatsoever!

That speaks to the politicisation of science in the US. Just as I would not vary my belief in evolutionary theory according to the US State I lived in - and what is their legislature vote - so I would pay no attention to a whole load of US politicians (of whatever party) claiming they could work out better than the scientists throughout the world what are the risks of a new medicine. I note especially that US politicians are as a group lamentably badly educated about science (not that they all are - but a lot are - as is a high proportion of the US population).

Politics is all about convincing people - and this process may convince you. Given that what matters to me is the reality - forgive me for wanting scientists - with detailed written arguments and counter-arguments - to decide this. Not those who can stand up and speak well to politicians.

We are all entitled to our own position, If you feel otherwise that would be claiming you to be my sovereign... I will not accept nor yield.

Have I ever asked somone else (or you) to do that? You have every right to your own opinion. Just as I have every right to point out that your views, if broadcast widely and believed, will cause unnecessary death and injury. You can argue against my reasons for thinking this - just as I will happily and (given the stakes) very definitely argue that your are wrong and your views are dangerous.

For clarity: you have put forward some points which are very clearly and definitely not "opposing views" but false antivaxxer propaganda. I am sure you honestly believe what you are saying, and have no wish to harm others. I would be very wrong if I treated these views as "opposing viewpoints" just as I would be if I treated the views that global warming was not caused by anthropogenic modification of the environment (farming and fossil fuel burning) as "opposing views" to the orthodoxy. Or the view that the earth is flat (passionately and strongly argued by a small minority).

1. Covid does not have different strains (or not in any way that is meaningful). those who argue this are putting forward a hoax. It is equally an excuse or hoax to note that covid original vaccines do not much prevent infection from omicron (some 30 spike mutations away from original).

FALSE - 100% antivaxxer

2. mRNA vaccines are so dangerous that having them would be personally more dangerous than being unvaccinated on average.

This is not about specific cases, but the general case. Nor is it about your personal decision: everyone has a right to make decisions for themselves no matter how misguided. It is an established fact that vaccination against COVID with mRNA vaccines, on average, reduces injury and death.

I do not deny that mRNA vaccines can cause death. In very rare circumstances. But, at least in the UK, the regulators look very carefully at personal risks for different ages when approving mRNA vaccines and they have done this for everyone over 12 years of age with a small number of contra-indicated exceptions

This medicinal product has been given authorisation for temporary supply by the UK Department of Health and Social Care and the Medicines & Healthcare products Regulatory Agency. It does not have a marketing authorisation, but this temporary authorisation grants permission for the medicine to be used for active immunisation to prevent COVID-19 disease caused by SARS-CoV-2 virus in individuals aged 12 years of age and over.

I'm not certain whether you are arguing that mRNA vaccines are on balance of risk more harmful than not taking them given the high rate of covid currently and likely in the future. If you argue this, then it too (with caveats above) is 100% antivaxxer contrafactual propaganda. You need to believe that regulators in many different countries, and mots of the medical establishments, are all part of a conspiracy to think this.

Quote from Edo

Also, I read again that popular word... "Antivaxxer". How to call you then as the "opposing party" pro-vaxxer?

This is post-truth 21st Century.

Well-supported scientific fact and propaganda are treated equal as "opposing parties".

It don't matter how many people believe that - it ain't true.

Quote from Fm1

Another good reason to be careful what you eat. The FDA just reported that Covid is in frozen meats and can last 30 to 60 days and still be viable.

Perhaps a reason not to eat steak tartare, otherwise not much of a problem assuming you have decent kitchen hygiene.

THH