Posts by woodworker

    Actually, if you read my posts you should have noticed that I said a mutual walk-away was a very distinct possibility, if not a probable outcome, which is exactly what happened

    If you are referring to me (woodworker), I have been around for some time and have posted more than a few times.

    Has Dr. Rossi announced yet when and where the robot factories will be established??? How about what I am certain will be the first of many contracts to sell his brilliant devices?? Or new funding from suckers (I mean investors)??

    I mean, after such a brilliant demonstration (or whatever that is being called as opposed to what it was billed as prior to the showing), I would think that the world is beating a path to his door, to shower money, praise and prizes on him. But I don't see any news about such, so I must assume the corrupt media is just not reporting about it.

    What can I say: $10 million just doesn't buy what it used to.

    I had the same reaction. We are told that there were many serious investors, none of whom were named and none of whom were recognizable, apparently, to Alan. The term I would use is shills, to make the mark believe that is a great deal of interest and he better invest soon or lose out on the opportunity. Also seen in many auctions from time to time, used to drive up the price to the mark.

    ETA: And we know that Rossi has previously used persons, whom I will refer to as stunt doubles, in the Doral affair.

    But I am sure he is not proud of it, so it is all okay.

    Come on skeptics. Answer the question or don't you dabble in logic?

    What can Rossi possibly gain by demonstrating a reactor that doesn't work when it would be simple (as the skeptics themselves claim) for any investor to check if it worked?

    Forget about Jeb's arrogant comments on how the rich are stupid. There would be tens of millions involved in finishing the engineering and building an autmated factory. People with kind of money are not stupid and do due diligence.

    I dabble in logic. Rossi is looking for gullible, naive investors. And as for your argument that "People with kind of money are not stupid and do due diligence" please see Juicero (raised over $100 million), (not sure how much they raised), Webvan (raised almost 1/2 billion), eToys, Geocities, etc., etc. And what about all those sophisticated, wealthy, investment savvy people and institutions that invested with Bernie Madoff. What could Madoff have possibly intended by releasing financial statements that showed people investments going up and up? Maybe he wanted them to keep investing. If he stopped producing fraudulent statements people might start asking for their money back. Similarly, if Rossi stops doing dog and pony shows, nobody is going to consider giving him money. You are right about one thing Adrian - truly intelligent investors will do their due diligence, and they won't invest. We certainly don't see any evidence of intelligent people beating down the doors to invest (evidence I said, not "But Rossi says"). But there are plenty of stupid wealthy people - that is Rossi's target market.

    I think I understand that but I am not sure. Last anyone looked, Rossi owned a number (6? 8?) Florida condos around the Miami area. Are you suggesting those had to be sold or heavily mortgaged to pay legal fees? Or are you thinking Rossi anticipated a countersuit and placed his property in the name of trusts and family members? Would that really work? What did I miss here?

    One thought I had was the question of why Rossi is continuing his scam with the current scheduled demo. Why not hold on to what he has left and quit while he is somewhat ahead, if he is? Maybe he did spend himself silly with the lawsuit and he thinks he can make one more big score like IH before he goes riding into the sunset. Your thoughts on that, WW?

    IIRC, the interplay between federal bankruptcy and Florida law essentially allows you to have your principal residence off-limits to creditors. Any competent attorney could have structured Rossi's Florida real estate holdings such that one residence was declared his primary residence, upon which he would have little or no debt, and all the other properties would be heavily encumbered, thereby providing little value to creditors. Additionally, Rossi could easily have moved a significant portion of his assets off-shore, essentially making them untraceable. Just consider what rich spouses do to hide assets before they get divorced.

    The situation that I wonder about is the future behavior of the naysayer crew after the LENR power source goes commercial. Will they undercut and gunboat the LENR technology even if it has been proven. This behavior will mark a connection to competing interests that seek to retain their market share. Specifically, one group that will fight LENR the hardest is the nuclear power sector. Some crew around here are connected to this group.

    Which LENR power source? Not Rossi's. If LENR becomes real I will truly rejoice. Rossi's crap - I will invest in popcorn futures.

    Worth remembering that Rossi has had his pick of customers.

    The one before IH (Hydrofusion) was also a disaster.

    • Mats and Hydrofusion say Rossi came to them with a device for a test that did not work. If it had worked they would have invested.
    • Rossi told Mats and Hydrofusion that the device did work, they were measuring it wrong, Rossi's measurements, which showed it working, were correct.
    • Rossi told IH that the test was failed on purpose, he deceived Hydrofusion to get out of any commitment to them

    THHN: it is so sad that you don't seem to understand that ethical people, so long as they are not proud of it, are entitled to deceive their business partners.

    couple of small comments:

    "Here is a good example. Woodworker here has given a typical external view of what the Court case evidence shows. I do not believe he is in any way biassed, nor does he have any axe to grind re LENR, or any view as to whether LENR is likely or unlikely other than the commonsense idea that it cannot yet exist in a usable form or it would be big news. His view of matters is based on the legal evidence and independent of the science." I consider it possible that someone (definitely not Rossi) is working on, may have working model, but has not yet released.

    He reckons this evidence shows (I guess he will correct me if I get this summary wrong: it is complex enough that I may do this):

    . . .

    (2) The legal evidence, because so complex with both sides accusing the other, would likely split the baby on a Jury Trial. I don't think it was that complex, what I believe is that Jones Day suggested to IH that (1) the trial itself would cost over another million dollars, (2) due to Florida bankruptcy laws and prudent planning, Rossi would be essentially judgment proof, and (3) there was a risk that a jury would get confused and split the baby. Given that, mutual walk-aways was a financial sound decision for IH.

    (3) The settlement therefore (which split the baby) was expected

    No. As I have said they have been answered already and I have no desire to rehash it all at length with someone as biased as Bob.

    I will be interested to see how you will explain away your previous certainty that Rossi has nothing and is a fraud, if the Nov 24th test is successful.

    And I will be interested to see how you will explain away your previous certainty that Rossi is not a fraud when the Nov 24th test is not successful. Or do you define successful as the event happening regardless of actual results?

    I don't think that and never said that. Next time give my actual quote. You're another one with Bob's disease.

    Something new? Really?

    On Monday, oldguy wrote:

    oldguy wrote:

    "Rossi has bragged about lying and deceiving others." (emphasis added)

    You responded:

    "What do you think politicians do? See also

    As I've said before you have no idea of the difficulties Rossi was facing. I'm sure he has had to do some things he was not proud of."

    So lying and deceiving others is just fine with you if one faces difficulties so long as one is not proud of it. Quite an ethical standard yet set there.

    I do disagree with many of the "points" you all have made. Mainly they are rude and just opinion, not proven facts. I have had extensive experience in judging things like this and concluded that it is not yet possible to prove the case one way or the other.

    You claim you are certain that Rossi is a fraud and various other things, that make me doubt you are a lawyer as you say. ("I am one of the lawyers who said") Yes it has all been said before, many times. If you had read all my comments you would, perhaps, understand why I judge it foolish to be so certain at this point.

    I would appreciate it if you wouldn't drag me into this pointless debate unless you have something new to say.

    First, I fail to understand how citing something that Rossi says under oath in his deposition is "rude and just opinion, not proven facts."

    Secondly, just to beat a dead horse, I believe the moderators and other persons have confirmed that yes, I am a lawyer, I am semi-retired, my name in real life is Howard Michael Appel and my Cal. Bar No. is 158674.

    Third, I have read your comments and, quite frankly, whilst I originally had respect for your arguments, I no longer do. You argue that because Rossi faced terrible obstacles, it was perfectly fine for him to lie, to commit fraud, to cause false documents to be forged, etc. I spent over 20 years practicing big firm M&A, Securities and Finance law and I can tell you how the SEC and other regulatory agencies would view Rossi's behavior - as criminal.

    He may have escaped prosecution because, in the grand scheme of things, his fraud was penny ante, didn't affect the greater public and prosecutors, both state and federal, have limited resources. But what he did was fraud - he intentionally represented to IH that JMP was both a real customer and a company with which he had no affiliation. He did this to get IH to agree to the Doral transaction. That was an intentional misrepresentation of a material fact with the intent to persuade someone to provide Rossi with a financial benefit. Now, maybe in your rarified world, that is okay because he was facing obstacles - in my world it is fraud, pure and simple.

    Lastly, as to something new to say, I will just echo Bob's comment that you never actually respond to any of the points raised about Rossi's behavior - you wave your hands and say it is not possible to prove the case one way or the other or some other dodge.

    It would nice to see you actually respond to the points Bob and others have raised: Did Rossi intentionally lie, about JMP, heat purchases, the heat exchanger and a host of items; did Rossi cause invoices to be forged to the effect that JMP had purchased raw materials when it had not; etc., etc.

    Answer the damned questions and stop dodging.

    AXIL: My question to you was if Rossi has not publicly disclosed details of his new toy, how are you so familiar with its details and specifications? It is a very simple question which you seem to have ignored. Why?

    Yes, it does rather look that way. Ever since the failed replication of F & P by Cal Tech and MIT. I read that they held a party to celebrate the negative result even before the results were known. And it goes on right up to resent times. Think what will happen to many hot fusion scientists if LENR is proven.

    I apologize if any of this has already been addressed, I am just now catching up.

    I can't speak for any other naysayers here, but I have no salary or other economic or financial dog in this debate. I would be ecstatic if LENR is proven. BUT, I am one of the lawyers who said re: the trial that a jury could split the baby, which is exactly what the settlement did.

    I have no doubt that Rossi is a con man - what do I base this conclusion on? Rossi's words and actions - not the accusations of IH, Dewey, MY or anyone else. I base it entirely on what Rossi said and did re: Doral and the evidence, primarily his depositions, made publicly available in the related litigation.

    Rossi originally claimed, in writing, that he had no interest in or relationship with JMP. Then it turned out JMP was formed at his direction and that he essentially had total control over it. HE FLAT OUT LIED ON A MATERIAL ISSUE.

    Rossi claimed, as noted by Bob, that there were robotic factories. HE LIED AGAIN.

    Rossi claimed, re: the Doral facility, that the purchaser, JMP, was purchasing the "excess" heat allegedly produced by the ecat. HE LIED AGAIN. THERE WERE NO PURCHASES, THERE WAS NO TRANSFER OF MONIES, THERE WAS APPARENTLY NO EXCESS HEAT PRODUCED.

    I could go on and on, but all of this has been documented repeatedly. The statements made by Rossi wherein he admits that there are no robotic factories, that he essentially controlled JMP, etc., etc., were either made by Rossi, under oath and under penalty of perjury, in his depositions, or were evidenced by his failure to produce any documentary evidence, e.g., payments for heat (although Rossi did manage to have some invoices forged to reflect certain purchases of materials).

    AA: If you disagree with the points that Bob, MY or I have made, surely you should be able to provide some evidence to support your position. These arguments are not ad hominem attacks. Rather you are asserting that the naysayers should trust Rossi and give him the benefit of the doubt. Why should anyone give him the benefit of the doubt when Rossi, by his own words and actions, demonstrates that he is a serial fabulist.

    As to the demo coming up, I have no doubt it will be some form of dog and pony show. Why do I believe this? If I had something that does what Rossi claims his device does, and I believed in it, and it was legitimate, I would rent a ballroom at one of the biggest fanciest hotels in New York or Los Angeles and I would invite the entire fricking world to attend. I would make sure that I invited every prominent physicist, electrochemist, etc., the networks, the newspapers and I would live stream it. Why doesn't Rossi??

    If it works, he has nothing to hide. He would immediately receive global acclaim and a shit-load of investors. I don't always agree that Occam's Razor provides an accurate answer, but this time I do. IMHO, Rossi is a fraud.

    PS. During the discussion of the trial, certain Rossi supporters warned me (and I am paraphrasing) that I was defaming Rossi and that I should moderate my language lest I be sued. I refer them to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram.

    Pleased be advised... this gratuitous statement hurt my feelings: "I know you will say something crazy, so do not answer...please. :)

    Quick question, mostly related to other posts of yours. It was my understanding the Rossi has not provided publicly extensive details of how the new machine works, yet you seem to be intimately familiar with said details. How is this?

    As we approach the ides of November, I look high, I look low, I look near, I look afar and yet, despite all my waiting and my looking and my earnest hopes, I still see no ecat, no miraculous new inventions, I see nothing. Please, someone tell me that the super genius Dr. Rossi is just teasing me and that his new wonder machines will be demonstrated soon.

    I don't believe I ever said that I specialize in mediation. I don't, so please show me the post where I said so.


    I know you are joking, but just in case you are not...Rossi has threatened several times over the years, that his lawyers were preparing to sue whomever was a thorn in his side at the time. Whether that be Krivit, Gary Wright, MY, or a number of others who publicly took issue with him, he never followed through. Called them "snakes and clowns". Only one he sued, as we know, was IH.

    Just to be clear, I an NOT joking. Please, Rossi, sue me.

    Rossi has been described to me by not one but two very knowledgable experimental physicists whose names are not connected with any of his pubic work. By one as 'incredibly intuitive' and by the other as 'able to go from A to E while I'm still working on B&C'.

    As I am in legal mode, objection, hearsay. Federal Rule 801 of the Federal Rules of Evidence:

    801 (c) “Hearsay” means a statement that:

    (1) the declarant does not make while testifying at the current trial or hearing; and

    (2) a party offers in evidence to prove the truth of the matter asserted in the statement.

    801 (a) Statement. “Statement” means a person’s oral assertion, written assertion, or nonverbal conduct, if the person intended it as an assertion.

    801 (b) Declarant. “Declarant” means the person who made the statement.

    Your testimony is about an out of court statement made by "two very knowledgable experimental physicists." For our purposes, they are declarants. The matter that is being asserted is either that Rossi is legitimate and/or that he is respected by these other smart guys. Are you offering their statements to prove either of those two? If so, those statements are out of court statements made by declarants which is being offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted. Thus hearsay and, unless you can show an exception thereto (which I very much doubt), not admissible.

    Further, as you are not willing to identify these brave souls, I would give it the same weight I give to the astrology predictions from "qualified, expert psychics" I see advertised on the internet. And, lastly, I will raise your two experts by the four, count them, Nobel Prize winners I spoke to, but whom I can't identify for obvious reasons, all of whom say Rossi is full of excrement (ELE: sarcasm alert).

    I wasn't aware that you are familiar with the laws of all of the states in the US, as well as Puerto Rico, Guam, etc. The ability of a average, non-police powered person to arrest another person is actually fairly limited and is governed by state, not federal, law. So there is no uniform USA-wide rule. Secondly, as far as I am aware, being licensed in California, you may only arrest someone for a felony if you witness, in person, them committing said felony. Being aware of the felony is not sufficient. And, if you are wrong or if the authorities choose not to prosecute, which they may do for a multitude of reasons, the biggest one being a lack of unlimited resources, you may be personally liable in civil court for your arrest. Additionally, to the extent that a person has the right to arrest another person for a crime witnessed, you don't need to be a citizen. You could be an illegal, undocumented alien (or ELE for that matter).

    Second, the allegations of fraud in the civil court are not evidence, in the legal sense, in or of anything. Nothing that was filed in the RvD case would become evidence, in that case, until it was admitted into evidence by the judge during the trial. The various affidavits and statements made during depositions might be admitted in other cases or in a criminal trial because (1) they were made under oath and/or (2) they are statements by a party opponent (in the other case) but at this point they are not "evidence" in a legal proceeding.

    Third, I can continue calling Rossi a fraud, a cheat, a liar, a hypocrite, etc. with complete criminal immunity and I don't have to do or prove anything, unless he sues me in CIVIL court. There is no crime committed by me here, even if I was lying (I am not saying that all such statements would never end up with criminal sanctions - for example, if I publicly disseminated false information about a publicly traded company in order to drive down its share price so I could short sell or buy on the cheap, I could possibly be prosecuted, as a criminal matter if I had used the postal service or telephone laws as violating the mail fraud statutes - which actually is a fairly regularly charged federal crime). Rossi's only potential remedy against me would be to sue in tort and I so hope he does. After all, truth is an absolute defense, even if I intended my statements to injure his reputation. And he has admitted, under oath, that he has lied, cheated, defrauded, etc., or made statements that would making proving that easy. E.g., "I had nothing to do with JMP", oops I owned and controlled it.

    Lastly, your statements that we have proof that Rossi is not a fraud because there was a settlement is a logical non-sequitur. The first does not imply or prove the second, just as the absence of evidence of something does not prove that said something does not exist, it merely means that at this time we don't have evidence of that something. As to Rossi being everything I claim, although evidence has not been admitted in a legal proceeding "yet," I can only that Rossi sues me so that I can have an opportunity to get it admitted at a trial.

    Please Rossi, sue me. I am bored and need some excitement.

    PS: As others have noted, in the grand scheme of things, just as I said that RvD was not a hugely complicated case, Rossi's fraud is not really high on any state law enforcement office's radar or concerns. They have limited resources and serious crimes, e.g., violent crimes, take priority. As to the Feds, the only one that will care is the IRS. Fuck with them at your own risk.

    Come on ! Weaver and Co. claimed here that Rossi would be destroyed that he would be imprisoned and blah blah blah....... And when Rossi proposed an agreement IH immediately acepted ! This demonstrate that Rossi was able to win the battle and was not a cheater. He proposed the agreement just to to avoid the usual "bankrupt trick" that Darden used many times.

    A bit of revisionist history and plain speculation in what you say:

    First, I always said that I believed that IH would win on the principal claim. Second, I said that it was at best, probably even odds on the counter claim and that a jury could easily split the baby and have IH win the principal claim, Rossi the counter claim and that unless there was an attorney's fees clause (which I stated I had not checked), each side would pay their own costs and fees. Please explain how this differs radically from the agreed upon settlement, other than Rossi got back his worthless IP (time, and the absence of any commercialization of said IP, will prove that it was worthless).

    In the settlement, IH got a complete, COMPLETE, release of any and all claims Rossi had against IH. TO PARAPHRASE BOTH WILLY WONKA AND MICHAEL CORLEONE, Rossi took nothing on his principal claims. Further, in the settlement, Rossi got a complete release of IH's claims against him and IH took nothing on the counter claim.

    As to your comments about Rossi proposing and IH immediately accepting, you could just as easily have said (and assuming you have no inside knowledge, be just as speculative) that Rossi eagerly pushed a settlement offer and IH reluctantly accepted. DO YOU HAVE ANY INSIDE INFORMATION?? And why did Rossi propose?? Was he scared of getting his ass kicked at trial? And if not, why did he settle? After all, according to you, SSC, Kev and many others, he was going to show IH, Darden, et al, for the alleged corporate crooks they were and the jury would carry Rossi off on their shoulders after awarding him 100's of millions of dollars. Why did Rossi settle? Please explain.

    No, the folks who keep calling Rossi a fraud and a crook are the ones being silly. It is time for them to put up or shut up.

    It is provable that Rossi is not a fraud because all of the data has been entered into the docket and it couldn't even meet the civil law standard of "preponderance of evidence" so there's no way it will meet the higher criminal standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt".

    Well then, according to that analysis, nothing IH or Darden, et al did in connection with Rossi et al was fraud either. After all, they haven't been charged or convicted and apparently, according to you, a settlement means that there wasn't a preponderance of evidence against them.

    Sorry IHFB, Kev just said your arguments against IH are crap.

    PS: Welcome back Kev.

    PPS: Just to make it clear, I believe that Rossi is a lying, cheating, hypocritical, thieving con man. And if he wishes to sue me for defamation, my contact information has already been posted and he should call me and I will meet him to accept service (litigation would have to be in California as I have no minimum contacts with any other jurisdiction that would satisfy the predicate requirements of "I Shoe" and it's progeny - sorry Ele, more layer talk, you can look it up). In fact, I will waive any the "New York Times" defense and treat him as any joe schmoe, not a public figure if he so desires.

    If the lying, cheating, hypocritical con man wishes to contact me, he can also reach me at [email protected].

    If IH really thought Rossi's IP was worthless, why did not they first proposed the same conditions that then they have accepted in the settlement? They would certainly have saved all the money spent on the lawyers. Maybe IH hoped Rossi would give up first by renouncing the process so he would not have to incur lawyer's cost? If this is the scenario, it really means that Darden never understood who he was in front of. Now IH has to return to Rossi all the know-how on the E-Cat, packing each piece of paper where the secret formulas are annotated and then sending it back to the inventor. If some member of their portfolio were to present an E-Cat-like reactor in the future, there would be the conditions for another process. Really IH comes out of this dispute with nothing in their hands....

    Nobody knows what either side might have proposed as a settlement prior to the final settlement. As both I and Mike D have stated, and as the Federal Rules of Evidence provide, settlement discussions are not admissible at trial, so any alleged settlement discussions are just that, alleged. For all you know, IH proposed months ago what was finally agreed to and Rossi refused.

    It would not surprise me if that is the actual settlement agreement, albeit unsigned. And I would not be surprised if IH waived any claim that they had to any purported or alleged intellectual property. I say that because I am assuming that IH eventually decided that whatever IP Rossi allegedly had, it was worthless.

    In the event that IH later develops some LENR technology that is feasible I would expect that Rossi would claim that it is based on his IP, regardless of whether it is or isn't, and will rush to the courthouse to sue IH. If he is willing to settle cheaply, IH may decide that settlement is cheaper than litigating. But if Rossi gets greedy (which would be the behavior I expect), and IH really has something that works, I would anticipate that IH would fight Rossi tooth and nail and, given that there is now a documented history of Rossi's behavior (the lies, etc.), I would expect that IH would do everything they could to bury Rossi.

    As to Rossi releasing something into the wild, I agree that he will. What he won't do is release anything that is capable of being independently tested and reviewed. And because he won't agree to that, I believe he will have a difficult time in obtaining serious investors and/or customers. No doubt he will be able to raise some monies from true believers, but IMHO I don't see any serious investor putting up money or partnering with him.

    Odds? If you read my posts, you should have noted that I have never expressed any opinion as to the viability of LENR other than to say I would like to see it succeed. My opinion as to Rossi's prospects/technology, my willingness to bet has nothing to do with the technology, it is based on the fact that Rossi is, IMHO, a lying, hypocritical, sliming, etc. fraud, cheat and conmen. I have absolute confidence that Rossi will not produce what he has promised not because I doubt LENR, but because I don't trust or believe Rossi and, given the evidence, in the court records and the things he has publicly said and admitted to, of Rossi's willingness to lie about everything and anything, I have every confidence that he will again fail to produce (apologies for the run-on sentence - I would have made it shorter, but I didn't have the time).

    You are the some so positive about Rossi, you should be giving me odds.

    As to "Another layer of complexity lies in the fact that if Rossi has what he claims he has, he most certainly will be delayed (or killed) by forces that would be hurt by such an invention" give me a f***ing break. What evidence do you have to support such a statement. And by "have" I don't mean you read something on some website about how the magic pill that turns water into gas was suppressed/killed by the oil companies. I mean real evidence.

    OHHH! This is not a jointly provided agreement? It's currently just Rossisays? (I should have looked more closely at the source).

    Well then, I'm placing my millyun Quatloos and bragging rights for IHFB in escrow until there is joint endorsement of the settlement terms.

    And I'm seeking some Quatloo council to protect my Quatloo interests (on contingency, of course) until this is all resolved. Maybe woodworker can represent me? ;)

    I would require at least $25,000 as an evergreen retainer. US dollars, not quatloos, promissory notes, etc. Cash before I start any work, along with a signed engagement letter.


    I don't know if Shane D is in for a bet (I won't presume to speak for him), but I am. $10,000 (US dollars) that Rossi does not have a functioning, independently tested E-Cat QX and ready for commercial use (by a real company, not one controlled by or affiliated with Rossi), within the next 18 months, that does what he claims as of today.

    I think that those are reasonable parameters. If you believe in Rossi and his technology so much you should not have a problem with them.

    Assuming that this is a true and complete (and executed) copy of the Settlement Agreement, I don't see anywhere in there where IH agreed to pay Rossi any more money or any portion of Rossi's legal fees. I was absolutely positive (sarcasm warning ELE), based on all of the pro-Rossi pundits posts, all of which were incredibly persuasive, well reasoned and based on inside information (more sarcasm ELE), that IH had agreed to pay Rossi tons of additional monies and some or all of his legal fees to be released from trap that Rossi had IH in. What happened? How did evil IH (more sarcasm ELE) escape from having to pay Rossi more money? Inquiring minds want to know.

    PS: pretty standard form of Settlement and Mutual Release - I must have several almost identical (except names, dates, etc.) in my form file. Also, I noticed AmpEnergo was not released. Would someone refresh my memory as to their involvement.

    PPS: Ele is correct that I have not been a layer (not lately). However, I am still a California lawyer in good standing with the California State Bar.

    I am not sure whether I admire or pity the people who continue to argue with Rossi believers about technical, factual, or even logical matters. They are going to believe Rossi no matter what happens. It is more productive to argue with rocks.

    That is why I quit arguing with them. You can't persuade a stone, no matter how much reason or evidence. It will remain a stone.