JedRothwell Verified User
  • Member since Oct 11th 2014
  • Last Activity:

Posts by JedRothwell

    It appears from the Hokkai PEEM brochure description and picture they are using external heating. It is difficult to tell.


    Those look like old photos from Mizuno. I wouldn't draw any conclusions from them. The only thing that looks new to me in the Hokkai PEEM website is a recent repackaging of a cell as a room heater, similar to the 3 kW. That's a new or new-ish cell:



    I do not think it is in Mizuno's lab or his house. He and I discussed doing another test. He said it was too much for him. He doesn't have room and he can't handle the safety issues, so he was looking around for someone else to do it. Maybe Hokkai PEEM agreed it? I hope so.


    The T-shaped cells in the photos are the old design. Mizuno gave it to Saito. Evidently he decided to give him an old one.

    The Hokkai experiment has a 500/350 = COP 1.42 output level. However, to calibrate it requires that the airflow calorimeter, which is a complex unit, is calibrated on radiation vs. convection vs. conduction losses on the control run vs. the active run. This is not trivial and takes time to check.


    However a 150 watt in, 450 watt out = COP 3.0 device has just so much less ways for calibration to throw off the result,


    Nope. I am talking about two results from Mizuno. S_o_T thinks the 250 W result is significant but the 108 W is not. That makes no sense. They produced temperature elevations of 11°C and 5°C, respectively. Why would 11°C be significant yet 5°C is not? They are both far above the noise. It is the same calorimeter. Issues such as calibration, radiation and so on are exactly the same. There is no way one could be significant but the other is a mistake.


    Also, you are exaggerating the difficulties with air flow calorimetry. It is use a million times a day by HVAC engineers worldwide. It works. It is not complicated.

    ETA: to clarify before someone jumps on me, I am not suggesting fraud on the part of Mizuno and/or Rothwell. I am suggesting that some inconsistent error may be accounting for the results- an error they are unaware of. And no, before you ask, I have no idea what it could be though others have ventured some possibilities further up in this string.


    If you have no idea what it could be, and you cannot suggest a candidate, your assertion cannot be tested, or falsified. It is not scientific. This is like claiming there is an invisible, undetectable unicorn in the garden.


    The other possibilities "ventured" further up are crackpot nonsense, along the lines of invisible macroscopic drops of water that defy gravity and thereby magically change the conservation of energy for no given reason. They have no merit.

    A few months ago, I suggested an excellent method to do a quick but reasonably accurate thermal output measurement on the 3kW reactor using several comparatively inexpensive heat flow transducers applied to the outer surface of the reactor.


    The temperature of outer surface of the reactor varies a great deal from one spot to another, and it changes over time. This is shown in the last slide of the supplement (https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTsupplement.pdf). So that method would not work.

    Due to technical issues which JedRothwellexplained, Mizuno could not measure the output in his lab or anyway, that was the claim.


    Of course he can measure the output! It is right there in the slides I referred you to:


    https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTincreasedea.pdf


    He cannot see the surface with his SEM because it is still broken from the earthquake. It will take ~$25,000 to fix.



    Perhaps someone else independent could have and in so doing, might have placed LENR permanently on the map.


    You keep repeating this fantasy. Who is it that would do this? Why would they be convinced by 250 W, but not by 108 W? If you know these people, why don't you ask them to visit Saito, who is much better positioned to demonstrate a 150 W reaction. He has better instruments, a better lab, and access to some best surface analysis machines in the world, at Hokkai PEEN, Inc.


    Explain why your imaginary wealthy friends would flock to see a 250 W reaction, yet they will refuse to see a 150 W reaction in a far better equipped lab with a much higher s/n ratio. What sense does that make?


    Besides which, you can see from the Hokkai PEEN website photos that they are testing one of the external cells set up to be a room heater. As you have been demanding all this time.



    Instead, the most powerful reactor ever made (if the claim is true) was dismantled.


    For good reasons. You still have not told us how we might make progress if we never examine the used reactants. Samples have been sent to two top-notch labs for analysis. Why do you think this is a bad idea, and it would better to leave the cell running?



    Jed is now touting a 108W excess output over a 215W input and if I got it right, even that works only some of the time.


    You make up stuff! I said repeatedly that it has been working for a year or so. Not some of the time; all the time, when it is heated up. It is right there in Slide 8.

    Jed, is the rate of heat loss through the enclosure walls linear with respect to changes of temperature within the enclosure? Constant


    Yes, this is mainly lost from the walls. They are large, as you see. It is "constant" meaning it is the same at a given temperature (power level).



    Is it correct to assume 150W loss over a wide range of internal temperatures?


    The higher the temperature, the more it loses. See Figs. 10 and 11:


    https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTexcessheata.pdf

    The efforts made by people in the LENR field apparently do not teach because I can see no progress being made toward achieving reproducible behavior.

    I think Mizuno has made progress toward achieving reproducible behavior. His results have now been confirmed by Saito. Okay, maybe not 100% confirmed, but they are stronger than they were before. The number of meshes that work -- at least in his lab, and Saito's -- is much higher than other materials have been. ~100 W reactions are much stronger, more stable, and better than most previous cold fusion results. Unless it turns out that both Mizuno and Saito are making mistakes, I think this is progress. Frankly, I don't see how you can deny that. It is not the kind of theory-based progress you desire, and the lack of theory will slow things down, but it is progress.


    People who want to make progress in theory should replicate this experiment closely, make it work, and find out what is happening on the microscopic level in the material. We may not know what is happening, but that is the one way we will find out. That company Hokkai PEEM has some excellent equipment for this task. They seem enthusiastic.


    In other words, trial and error have given us a somewhat reproducible experiment. Perhaps we can use that as the key to developing a theory, which will then obviate the need for more trial and error.


    I also think that back in the day, F&P made progress in France, until they were shut down by politics and stupidity.


    I agree there has been less progress than some other people hoped for. Less than some people claimed. Several experiments started off looking hopeful, but then they faded out. For example, Energetics Technology started off with a bang, but they were not able to repeat that. In another example, I do not think Swartz has made his devices as reliable as he claims. (It is hard to judge in his case.)

    I uploaded some details and graphs from the replication at the Hokkaido University of Science. See p. 6:


    https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTsupplement.pdf


    Note: In the message above, I described this as an "independent replication." After reading through the materials and notes, I would say it is "semi-independent." But it is getting more independent by the day! I gather they are learning how to do it themselves, and so are the people at Hokkai PEEM Co., Ltd. I guess this means you need hands-on assistance at first. Perhaps people trying to replicate this should visit Mizuno, or visit Saito as the Hokkaido U. of Science.

    To get a sense of how much pre-modern people knew about technology, see the famous mining textbook, De Re Metallica, by Georgius Agricola.


    http://www.gutenberg.org/files/38015/38015-h/38015-h.htm


    Translated from the First Latin Edition of 1556


    Translator: Herbert Clark Hoover, Lou Henry Hoover. (Hoover was a prominent expert in mining and later President of the U.S.) This is highly organized, logical and pragmatic knowledge, with cause and effect clearly stated:


    Quote

    But by skill we can also investigate hidden and concealed veins, by observing in the first place the bubbling waters of springs, which cannot be very far distant from the veins because the source of the water is from them; secondly, by examining the fragments of the veins which the torrents break off from the earth, for after a long time some of these fragments are again buried in the ground. Fragments of this kind lying about on the ground, if they are rubbed smooth, are a long distance from the veins, because the torrent, which broke them from the vein, polished them while it rolled them a long distance; but if they are fixed in the ground, or if they are rough, they are nearer to the veins. The soil also should be considered, for this is often the cause of veins being buried more or less deeply under the earth; in this case the fragments protrude more or less widely apart, and miners are wont to call the veins discovered in this manner "fragmenta."


    Further, we search for the veins by observing the hoar-frosts, which whiten all herbage except that growing over the veins, because the veins emit a warm and dry exhalation which hinders the freezing of the moisture, for which reason such plants appear rather wet than whitened by the frost. This may be observed in all cold places before the grass has grown to its full size, as in the months of April and May; or when the late crop of [Pg 38]hay, which is called the cordum, is cut with scythes in the month of September. Therefore in places where the grass has a dampness that is not congealed into frost, there is a vein beneath; also if the exhalation be excessively hot, the soil will produce only small and pale-coloured plants. Lastly, there are trees whose foliage in spring-time has a bluish or leaden tint, the upper branches more especially being tinged with black or with any other unnatural colour, the trunks cleft in two, and the branches black or discoloured. These phenomena are caused by the intensely hot and dry exhalations which do not spare even the roots, but scorching them, render the trees sickly . . .


    This sort of thing was known for thousands of years, even in the stone age, when people had no writing. In the Pacific, illiterate Polynesians were able to navigate accurately over vast distances, successfully reaching small islands in the middle of the ocean. In the 20th century many pilots were lost trying to accomplish this. The Polynesians were not shooting in the dark or "playing the lottery." They had reliable knowledge of ocean conditions, such as waves, wind and other observable effects that occur hundreds of miles from small islands. They memorized extensive star maps in the form of long epic poems.


    It is a mistake to think that organized knowledge of nature can only come about as the product of the scientific method, with reference to basic laws of physics and chemistry.

    Each attempt to replicate will cause a random variation in many conditions, some of which are important to causing LENR and some are not. Success in causing LENR would result only when the important condition just happened to be produced. This approach is not science. It is more like playing the lottery.


    I would say it is more like the methods used to develop pre-modern technology. Which is to say, most of the technology you see around you. People discovered iron, steel, Damascus steel and countless other materials without any knowledge of science. The entire city of Rome, the aqueducts, and all medieval cathedrals were built without science. It was not simply trial and error. They understood the rules in great depth. The people who built aqueducts and cathedrals knew a lot about stones, such as how much weight different kinds of stone can bear, whether they will be crushed or erode over time, how to cut and shape them without damaging them, and so on. But they did not understand the underlying rules behind the rules. The best example of this in modern times was genetics before the discovery of DNA in 1953. People knew a TERRIFIC amount about genetics. There is a book published in 1916 with hundreds of pages of accurate information, describing how different genes are on different chromosomes, how they interact, which is dominant or recessive, and so on:


    Castle, W.E., Genetics and Eugenics. 1916: Harvard University Press. (Copies available online)


    They understood all of that without any knowledge of the mechanism at the chemical or atomic level.


    The method is not trial and error, and it is not blindly shooting in the dark, but it is very time consuming. If enough money and effort were put into the project, I think that people might be able to develop effective cold fusion heat sources without knowledge of the atomic physics. This would take far more money, effort and time than it would with a theory, but I think it could be done, because so much else was done without theory. It would be more art than science, but it would still work.



    Even the Wright Brothers did not attempt to exactly duplicate their design after each experiment, as you made clear earlier. They learned from their experience and used this knowledge to improve each following effort.


    The Wright brothers did all of their work with Newtonian physics and engineering, with very complex mathematics and modeling, but without any deep knowledge of things that are now considered essential to aviation science, such as how wings produce lift. See T. Crouch, "The Bishop’s Boys," page 175. Quote:


    Engineering was the key. The Wright brothers functioned as engineers, not scientists. Science, the drive to understand the ultimate principles at work in the universe, had little to do with the invention of the airplane. A scientist would have asked the most basic questions. How does the wing of a bird generate lift? What are the physical laws that explain the phenomena of flight?

    The answers to those questions were not available to Wilbur and Orville Wright, or to anyone else at the turn of the century. Airplanes would be flying for a full quarter century before physicists and mathematicians could
    explain why wings worked.


    How was it possible to build a flying machine without first understanding the principles involved? In the late twentieth century, we regard the flow of technological marvels from basic scientific research as the natural order of things. But this relationship between what one scholar, Edwin Layton, has described as the “mirror image twins” of science and technology is a relatively new phenomenon. Historically, technological advance has more often preceded and even inspired scientific understanding.

    Storms' experiments and his theories derived therefrom may well lead him to criticise the individual details of Mizuno's R20, eg sheet being a better material than mesh, but in the absence of said mechanism, no one is to say that any approach is better or worse.


    I have no objection whatever to Ed doing this experiment his way, according to his theory. On the other hand, I am glad that other people are trying to do exact replications. Both approaches should be used. Unfortunately, the "exact replications" are not exact, for various reasons beyond our control, as I explained here. The one at Hokkaido University of Science looks to be the closest replication of all. Mizuno supplied the reactor. I gather they are making their own reactor now.


    I am still going over the materials, and translating them. I hope to have it ready today, but I am busy. There isn't much, but I want to be sure I understand it.

    It turned out, the main reason it did not work was air density. The air in freezing weather at sea level in Kitty Hawk was much denser than the air in Dayton in summer.


    Here is a page from Caidin's book "Kill Devil Hill" describing the air density problem. I believe they got off the ground before September 1904, but not often. "In their first dozen takeoffs in 1904 they managed only once -- out of all their attempts -- to achieve a distance of 300 feet." A failed launch almost killed Orville later that summer. This was not a replicatable, controlled experiment. Granted, they did know far more about the engineering and control mechanism than Mizuno understands.


    It seems to me that the least controlled/controllable aspect of attempts to replicate Mizuno's results is indeed the Ni/Pd nexus. Different meshes, different physical and elemental compositions; different compositions of Pd; compounded by the inherent and inevitable variations of manual rubbing and scraping.


    Yes, I think the materials are the biggest source of variation, and failure. That has been the case with cold fusion from the start. Materials are the key.


    Will there be any chance of eventually comparing existing ones with that being used at the University of Science in Sapporo?


    I expect they will get around to doing that. I don't know when, but I gather they are preparing a new set of experiments so it may not be long. I expect they have better, up-to-date in-house instruments than Mizuno has. Plus their instruments were not smashed in the earthquake. They are working with an engineering company that produces advanced analytic equipment (https://hpeem1.jimdo.com/). They manufacture photo electric emission microscopes (PEEM).

    These have not yet been replicated outside of Mizuno's lab, the 3kW machine was taken down for study and even Mizuno can't get the same results again, if I understood Rothwell.

    Well, it wasn't totally "taken down." He has another reactor and mesh running, which is producing 108 W, as I showed in Slide 9 here:


    https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MizunoTincreasedea.pdf


    108 W is not exactly the same results, but it ain't bad. It should convince anyone as readily as the previous result. I pointed this out to you several times. You seem to ignore it. Also, you seem to have no suggestion as to how Mizuno might understand the reaction or replicate the material except by examining it with SEM and mass spectrometers.


    As it happens, the situation is similar to what the Wright brothers did in the summer of 1904. In December 1903 at Kitty Hawk they flew successfully 4 times. Later that afternoon, the airplane was caught in a gust of wind, turned over, and smashed. The engine was destroyed. They debated whether to burn it up in a bonfire, or box it up and ship it to Dayton. They decided to ship it, but they never used any part of it again. They built a new airplane which was different from the Kitty Hawk Flyer in many ways. It was improved, with better control. And here's the part you should pay close attention to:


    The new Flyer did not work. It wouldn't take off. They called in reporters to watch a flight, and it did not even begin to work. So, they did exactly what you are warning us they should not have done.


    It turned out, the main reason it did not work was air density. The air in freezing weather at sea level in Kitty Hawk was much denser than the air in Dayton in summer. Also, there was a strong headwind at Kitty Hawk on Dec. 17. The problem wasn't the machine so much as the environment. They couldn't control the weather or make it freezing, so they built a weight and derrick to augment the engine and give the airplane a push on take off, and they were soon flying again. But it took a while before they could fly as well as they did at Kitty Hawk.


    The point is, they could not do the same experiment again. It was physically impossible. They couldn't recreate winter weather, sea level, and a strong headwind. Even if they had brought back the Kitty Hawk Flyer intact, it would not have flown in Dayton. They had to change the experiment and incorporate the weight and derrick. They had to improve control by reducing the surface area of the elevator, reducing responsiveness and overcontrol. (That was rather similar to your imaginary suggestion of adding large holes to the wings.) If they had not done this, they would have crashed, the way Wilbur crashed a few days before the first successful flight at Kitty Hawk.

    At least, are you fully aware what does imply NOT believing in scientific consensus?

    You are implicitly stating that tens (if not hundreds) of billions of both taxpayers and private dollars are being wasted in obsolete technologies and in experiments based on obsolete theories!

    The 'scientific consensus' is not a valid metric for evaluating whether a claim is true, or scientifically valid (but maybe not true after all). That's not how science works. Evaluation must be based on objective standards in comparison to known laws of physics, textbook knowledge and logic. The laws and textbooks might be wrong, or inaccurate, but they are the starting point. Whereas a "consensus" is merely a majority opinion.


    Science is not a popularity contest. If one person finds an error, or does an experiment showing there is something new that cannot be explained, every other scientist on earth may disagree, but they are all wrong. One experiment overrules all theories, textbooks and opinions. Consensus means nothing in the face of replicated cold fusion experiments. All new discoveries start off with one scientist knowing the truth, and every other one being wrong.


    Consensus is also a useless metric because unless you take a poll, you don't even know what the consensus is in many cases. Even if you find out, without detailed information on the poll respondents, you cannot reach a conclusion. For example, suppose your poll shows that that 80% of scientists think cold fusion does not exist, 19% don't know, and 1% think it is real. Suppose you examine the 99% who think it does not exist or don't know, and you find that none of those respondents has read the literature. Whereas the 1% who think it is real have read the literature. Only the 1% have any right to an opinion. You cannot make assertions about a scientific subject if you have not read the literature and you don't know anything about it.


    That is not a hypothetical situation. I have read the critiques of the field in mainstream literature and in the mass media. Every negative report I know of was written by people who did not know what instruments are used, what results are obtained, or what conclusions have been reached. They resemble people in 1900 who said airplanes could not exist because we have no idea how to make anti-gravity machines. (Those people were not all fools; Edison was one of them.) That was true, but irrelevant.


    Consensus is not a valid metric. It is a weak guide to guessing what is true. It works with well established areas of science such as evolution, but so do conventional methods of evaluation: looking at the facts and thinking for yourself. It should never be applied to a new claim, because scientists -- like everyone else -- tend to reject new ideas out of hand. That's probably instinctual. Here is a long list of quotes describing that reaction:


    http://amasci.com/weird/skepquot.html


    Some examples:


    "If we watch ourselves honestly we shall often find that we have begun to argue against a new idea even before it has been completely stated." - Wilfred Trotter


    "The human understanding, when any preposition has been once laid down... forces everything else to add fresh support and confirmation; and although more cogent and abundant instances may exist to the contrary, yet it either does not observe them or it despises them, or it gets rid of and rejects them by some distinction, with violent and injurious prejudice, rather than sacrifice the authority of its first conclusions." - Francis Bacon, Novum Organum


    "Be not astonished at new ideas; for it is well known to you that a thing does not therefore cease to be true because it is not accepted by many." - Spinoza

    Another Note about OCR and Acrobat


    You can see the underlying text in an acrobat file by two methods:


    1. For a short segment of text, just copy and paste to a text editor. Select some text, copy and then paste into a blank document. You will see the underlying text.

    2. For an entire document, use an Acrobat editor to export to Microsoft Word or plain text. Scroll through it or use the spell checker to find garbage text.


    If there are many OCR errors in the text, you will not be able to search through the document, or copy chunks of it to quote from it. If you will need to search or quote from the document, you probably need to retype it manually. The most important papers at LENR-CANR.org were retyped, by me. This is one of the most important in the history of the field:


    Miles, M. and K.B. Johnson, Anomalous Effects in Deuterated Systems, Final Report. 1996, Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division. https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/MilesManomalousea.pdf


    I OCR'ed it, fixed all the errors (I hope), and then I paid an expert to regenerate the graphs on pages 52 - 86. The only paper copies of this document that Miles or I could find were copies of copies with skewed, blurry, distorted graphs. I superimposed the original graphs on the new versions and checked them carefully. Like so:



    That was a lot of work. This is why is it much better to preserve the original digital copies.


    Some OCR programs work better than others, but none of them will convert a messy, old document. I have tried a variety of OCR programs. Some years ago, I found that the ABBYY program from Russia seems to work best with scientific documents. It does Greek letters and so on. I have not tried other OCR programs lately, and they may have improved. The built-in OCR feature of the EPSON ES-400 is from Nuance, I think. It works pretty well. It does Japanese, I suppose because it is made in Japan. You have to tell it the text is Japanese, or it will think the text is English and convert it to garbage. The OCR built into Adobe Acrobat is okay but not great. It works better than it did a few years ago.


    What is interesting about OCR programs is that in a few limited ways, they can do a better job than you can. They don't care about contrast. Lightly printed text converts about as well as high contrast text. But you, a human (and I assume you are a human, dear reader) can still do a far better job nearly all the time, despite the millions of dollars that Adobe and others have invested in this technology. I think an AI approach will eventually make machine OCR better than human OCR.

    Here is another note about scanned documents.


    A scanned Acrobat (PDF) file is usually not as good as it looks. What you see on screen looks right but "underneath" there are hidden OCR errors. For example, the ICCF3 proceedings, p. 38 says:


    "We can see that the loading proceeds almost at 100% current efficiency up to H/Pd=0.5. In general the current efficiency of loading increases at lower current densities. Figure 8 shows that loading at 3mA/cm2 proceeds linearly with time at current efficiency slightly higher than 100% throughout the entire loading period. . . ."


    https://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/IkegamiHthirdinter.pdf


    That is what you see on the screen. But the underlying text has errors, shown in bold here:


    "We can see that the loading proceeds almost al 100% current efficiency up to H/Pd=0.5. In general the current efficiency of loading increases at lower current densities. Figure 8 shows that loading at 3mNcm2 proceeds linearly with time at current efficiency slightly higher than 100% throughout the entire loading period."


    If you do a search for "3mA/cm2" you will not find it. Most equations have OCR errors.


    Some text has more errors, such as on p. 169:


    "The anomalous phenomenon in metal loaded with deuterium has been studied, using the electrolysis and the cycle method of temperature and pressure ((M>'l'). In the report, the experimental results are introduced, including the explosion occurred, and nuetron and tritium measured in electrolysis experiment. The sensitization phenomenon of X- ray film was found in OOP experiment. It is considered that the reason of sensitization is derived from the chemical reaction and the anomalous effect in metal loaded with deuterium."


    "((M>'I')" and "OOP" are supposed to be: "(CMPT)." "CMPT" is what you see on the screen, and when you print the document. But, if you press Ctrl-F to look for "CMPT" in this document, you will not find it.