Cutting Through the Fog Surrounding the Rossi/IH Dispute (Josh G)

Quote from Bryant

I would agree about Fabiani closeness to Rossi..judging from Mats interview.. but its a small matterFabiani didn't write the report. Fabio did.. easy to confuse in the fog

Unfortunately (Fabio) Penon has written previous reports for Rossi. The one we know contains extraordinary lapses that no normal tester would make. For example it does not state the instruments used to measure voltage and current. This fails "Testers 101" where the first thing you do is identify make and model of all test equipment and how it was calibrated.

However it is worse. We know Rossi has mismeasured tests giving an artificial X2-3 COP due to using the wrong voltmeter and ammeter. The later tests avoid this by using a PCE-830 power meter. Unfortunately Penon's first test report, with the unlabelled meters, did not. Further, Penon notes that there was an inconsistency between his volt and amp meter calculated power, and the power as read by a power meter. He then ignores this, does not mention what numerically is the inconsistency, and states without reasons that he therefore will use the volt and amp meter measurements.

This type of test practice, documented in Penon's report as published by Rossi, is nowhere near acceptable. Rossi may have edited the report but if so Penon was complicit in that, because he went on to do more tests for Rossi, including the current tests.

So: Penon is incompetent as a tester, or he is influenced by Rossi allowing crucial ommisions. Either way his report for the current test cannot be trusted.

You will note that IH are saying that the ERV report is wrong, not that the ERV report headline states a low COP. We will have to wait and see what evidence they have, but in absence of evidence such a report produced by Penon could never be reliable. Legally, if IH agreed Penon as a Tester, that might be an issue. But legally, the license contains requirements for correctness that I expect let IH of any self-imposed hook if there are obvious errors.

Quote from randombit

What you say refers to a VERY OLD test after which Rossi changed his mind and accepted that all electrical measures should be done with an appropriate instrumentation as the PCE830 is.
Your statesmen has nothing to do on which should discussed in this group, and serve only to present Rossi as the evil, and who trust him as stupid.

I think you have been sipping the ECW cup where all posts must be by "be nice to Rossi or else get banned". I was banned on ECW from reminding people there of my comment on the Lugano report, and its implications. It gave me too negative a mind-set.

"Rossi changed his mind". Good he did that, but it was only after everyone else had publicly noted the error in his previous method. It was forced.

"Rossi evil". Too metaphysical for me - you will have to make that argument. Inventors can be steadfastly mistaken about their inventions without being evil, surely?

"Rossi stupid". It is pretty obvious from many things that Rossi is clever. All I've said is that he tested his device in a way any electrical engineer would have known was wrong, and when confronted by Mats refused to admit his mistake. Note that it would have affected a large number of previous tests, giving them apparent false COP of 2-3. Not however the early "steam and thermocouple error" style tests which I think did not have Triac controllers, or did have proper power meters. There, Rossi refused to check other obvious errors like steam dryness and TC siting. (I may be wrong about exactly when the electrical input measurement errors started - just that I don't remember having such concerns then and I would have). So Rossi incompetent in at least some important test areas, and overconfident about his own competence to test - Yes. Stupid? No.

Quote

So also you are manipulating reality and facts in favor of your point of view.Now I make you a question. How can we trust people doing that ?

I can't see what in your comment shows I'm manipulating reality and facts? I was commenting on Rossi's suitability as a tester of his own equipment - historically low. He might I suppose have improved . Just as in marriages, don't assume that bad habits people have will change.

I don't ask anyone to trust me. Many get into trouble on ECW trusting people and ruling out genuine debate. Analyse what I and others say. Come to your own conclusion.

JDW - As a partial answer, we are presently shining light into what appears to be a substantial darkness.
Your buy into the hyperconspracy guidance from Planet Rossi is an orbit that you'll have to continue to discern for yourself.

No, no light is being shone, no fog dispersed.

There's plenty of speculation, unsupported assertion, misinformation, misinterpretation; mixed no doubt with nuggets of unidentifiable truth - but generally every type of snot grenade that comes with internet debate

But we are no nearer full enlightenment.

@andrea.s

So, if I understand you correctly, at a low duty cycle (around 8%, seems about right), using the most powerful Compact Fusion controller available, peaks to 200A could be made for a few microseconds, which are (barely) within the rating of the strongest controller since it can produce 160A RMS, and this corresponds to about 3 kW (feasible). This runs the PCE 830 into OL due to clamp saturation.
OK, I find that plausible.

The Swiss have 380 or 400V three phase service, so does the pulse sit where normally would in order to get the required voltage (~220 V) from a triac for the required duty cycle, or is the pulse timed later (after crossing) in order to get the required voltage for the 200 A max spikes (according to your simulation)?

@joshg

Quote from joshg

Also, this notion that either Fabio or Fulvio are "Rossi's guys" is not supported by any facts. It's just hearsay and gossip. There is not a shred of evidence that either of them had any working relationship (or any other kind) before they were contracted by IH, either to do the validations or to work with Rossi.

Actually, in the case of Fulvio Fabiani there's plenty of evidence of his closeness to Rossi and of a pre-existing working relationship with him prior to IH entering the picture:

1) Before removing it, Fabiani had a LinkedIn page that included his work experience (Sifferkoll captured an image of it here - http://www.sifferkoll.se/siffe…loads/2013/12/fulvio2.jpg). You'll see that Fulvio was working for Leonardo Corporation a full year before doing contract work for IH (you'll see that he doesn't claim to be an employee of IH, but rather a freelance consultant), and ~5 months before IH entered into the license agreement with Rossi. Fabiani's listing of IH on his LinkedIn page was actually the first hint that IH might be Leonardo's partner, as Fabiani was a known prior employee of Leonardo (article on ECW here - http://www.e-catworld.com/2014…onnection/comment-page-1/). As further evidence that Fabiani was not an employee of IH, but rather a contractor (bills paid by IH, but reporting to Rossi), is Mat's comment that "I already had a follow-up contact with Fabiani...he said that he was just waiting to send his last invoice to IH and then start look for new opportunities/work" (on his blog - https://animpossibleinvention.…truth-on-rossi-ih-affair/). Having to send an invoice makes clear that Fabiani was not an IH employee, but rather a contractor whose bills were paid by IH as part of their relationship with Rossi.

2) In August 2013 Fabiani formed a company called United States Quantum Leap LLC in Florida, with the help of Rossi's lawyer Henry W. Johnson, where he was listed as co-director with an entity called "Florida Energy Trust", the address for both Fabiani and "Florida Energy Trust" was listed as the same apartment that Rossi registered for Leonardo corporation, which is owned under Rossi's wife's name (http://www.arivify.com/property/search/nl8rYPBFZ) and appears to be their residence, so reasonable to assume that "Florida Energy Trust" = Rossi (http://search.sunbiz.org/Inquiry/CorporationSearch/ConvertTiffToPDF?storagePath=COR%5C2013%5C0828%5C00188102.Tif&documentNumber=L13000119832). Fabiani lists USQL as his current employer on his social media page (http://m.vk.com/ffab2012), so clear that after this fiasco he is still working with Rossi via this entity. Fabiani also lists his current address as 1303 Lincoln Rd Unit #401 (http://search.sunbiz.org/Inquiry/CorporationSearch/GetDocument?aggregateId=flal-l13000119832-3ff1d247-9313-4e15-863b-58465a13f349&transactionId=l13000119832-a4a6cba8-d7b9-4b7f-b9af-83808c3b8c98&formatType=PDF), an address which is owned by REFC Real Estate Corp (http://www.arivify.com/property/search/AyR5oAcbs), which is owned by Rossi (http://search.sunbiz.org/Inquiry/CorporationSearch/SearchResultDetail?inquirytype=OfficerRegisteredAgentName&directionType=Initial&searchNameOrder=ROSSIANDREA P130000508421&aggregateId=domp-p13000050842-f727ddc4-a303-41c1-bc4b-aae94c3f6d13&searchTerm=Rossi Andrea&listNameOrder=ROSSIANDREA L150000798350). The guy is literally living in Rossi's home.

Above are facts, not hearsay or gossip.

Quote from andrea.s

The problem is that there is enough information to derive it anyway.

No sir NO ! You don't have enough information.
You have completely forgotten that you are looking at only one phase of a three phase AC system.
In the manual of the Compact FUSION controller we read:

Quote

Loads can be controlled in phase-angle, zero-cross, or burst modes for operation of resistive
or transformer connected loads.

So the controller can vary the phase angle of Voltage and Current applied to the load.
If you have no information about the phase angle PHY we can't calculate the power factor Cos (PHY) and so you CAN'T calculate the real power. There is no such information in the report picture which is related to only one phase.
This is a very basic concept in electrical engineering.
People interested can find a primer about that in that Wikipedia page.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor

I hope that your forgetfulness was done by error and not by purpose.

Ouch........

Yet another heat round. Dead center.

@randombit0
Any idea what happens when two of the three amp clamps are removed, or alternately, all three hooked to the same wire, as far as the PCE-830 or similar power quality meters are concerned?
I suppose this might need to be tested empirically.

Randombit0

Not so random I think.

Be carful the sharks

Welcome.

Best regards
Frank

@paradigmoia Come on ! Don't be Paranoid ! If one start to make fictional hypothesis will find plots anywhere !
From the report I see that the PCEs ware two and data ware consistent.

Just wondering about different ways to make the OL condition without almost frying the Compact Fusion controller or blowing fuses.

I know the coil can be built without magic resistors. It is a dog of a heater, though. But it will accept enormous amounts of current, if it could be delivered.

@randombit0

If by report you mean the Lugano report then electrical issues are really not required to explain the results, because the flawed thermography, when corrected, does that.

There are a few indications of weird things on the electrical input side. My favourite explanation is that Rossi/Levi had errors that would have made some extra COP out of that, but the errors were actually noted by somone else on the team who understood electrical measurement and corrected. This was then all covered up in the report with only the fingerprints we can see from the anomalous current in active tests, which could indicate Wye/Delta chnage (or other things of course).

The above is pure speculation of course.

The 1.5K posts on Mats site were useful - we could review all the old tests and the evidence against them is compelling. I, for example, had not realised how innacurate Levi's claimed tests results were (impossible high flowrate). Also we got Levi's reply to the thermography issue which shows he is either not competent at general physics (quite likely) or in this case not replying with any due consideration. Levi's now known false results mean that Ferrara, conducted by him, cannot be trusted.

Penon is shown to be completely unsuitable for the job of writing independent test reports.

And Rossi's original "samovar" test has a nice explanation from ascoli that pans out, explaning all the reports mats had at the time from people claiming this was proof positive of lenr with a "hot core" model.

So we are at the dotting is and crossing ts stage.

@Paradigmoia Are you serious ? You are making inconsistent affirmations !
The OL condition has nothing to do with the FUSION controller ! Can be obtained just changing the clamp range ! The coil material is not mentioned in the report but a good assumption could be something like Inconel or may be Kanthal . See JUST as an example:
http://kanthal.com/en/products…istance-wire/kanthal-apm/

Quote

just wondering about different ways to make the OL condition

The PCE-830 works with different current clamps, and the clamps saturate at different currents. We do not know which one was used. (radombit0 - you quoted the range - but that is a different matter from the clamp used. Saturation happens at different currents according to which clamp if you look at the manual).

I've kept clear of the fascinating electrical analysis because there are just too many unknowns. Certainly a change from Wye to Delta to increase currents and therefore saturate on the active but not dummy tests would be a potential false positive measurement, and one that is quite subtle.

@'randombit0:

'Did not the heater material evolve to the commercially available SiC types? I confess to not paying much attention after that.... instead content to await the "results".

Alan Smith:

OK, my bad. I am still wrestling with the state of Me356's efforts, neglected to note Rossi was the only subject here. I take your word for what his revealed state of the art is. Thanks-- and that is nevertheless interesting.

Quote from randombit0

You have completely forgotten that you are looking at only one phase of a three phase AC system.
...
There is no such information in the report picture which is related to only one phase.

Figure 5 in the Lugano report shows (on the left side of the PC830 display) the waveforms of TWO phases.

Quote from Thomas Clarke

The above is pure speculation of course.

Avoid any speculation here, or otherwise we can speculate that you have an agenda .

From what I see the rest of your post is a personal attack against Levi.
I have never met him but reading his public curriculum I see he has been awarded by a PhD in Sub nuclear Physics, a Post Doc and a permanent tenure as Assistant Professor in Physics.

And again Mr. Clarke avoid generic and unscientific phrasing. If you have any real argument, not a speculation, not an hypothesis a real scientific and correct argument state it.