Are IH and Cherokee on the verge of Bankruptcy?

Quote from Dewey Weaver

Axil - Is this more of your subtle sense of humor? I thought Rossi was finally ready for 5th or 6th try at massive robotic production - is that wrong? Before you can productize anything, you need a working prototype that can be verified and characterized. For starters, you cannot possibly survive safety and compliance without ground up planning based on what you KNOW, what you hope to know or what you think you know.

Have we returned to the circular logic from another planet condition?

Rossi's modus operandi is to seek a VC partner in order for this partnership to back and fund his development efforts. Through his work on the 1 MW steam plant, Rossi understood that his product was not ready for release, so he decided to move on to the next VC. Each of these jilted past partners become deadly competitors.

Defkalion never said that Rossi's reactor was not gainful. They said that Rossi could not control it and it was erratic. It is my guess that Rossi's tech shared with IH was controllable and gainful, but was a kluge and would be problematic out in the marketplace.

Rossi's new strategy puts the onus on the system's integrator who is responsible for product development. Now Rossi's current OEM function is to provide a small, modular, scalable, power source with no concern about how to put it to use...no steam traps, gaskets, leaks, etc... all the hard work is in the hands of Rossi's customer, the system's integrator.

That is the ideal situation for Rossi. Rossi takes a small cut on every LENR product in the world, and do that with as short a delay as possible. A fraction of a percent on every dollar of the global gross cost of everything. That adds up to some real money. Some companies only make a few cents on the dollar for net profit. But Rossi's margin is high because his costs of production is very low. He has Robot's to keep operating and no people problems and few material costs. If Rossi gets one cent on the dollar for the total would LENR gross, he will make more from those companies than the companies do.

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Lomax: This was classic Joshua Cude. In the Playground here, he brought up something I wrote about Rossi in 2011. I responded, showing that he'd quoted me out of context, creating a distorted appearance.

You can keep on sputtering about context, but the only thing context is needed for to understand Rothwell's above statement, or your statement ("I'm willing to bet a significant chunk of my net worth on Rossi being real...") is to know what the nature of Rossi's claims are or were, and there is no uncertainty with respect to that.

What both statements mean is that, when you made them, you were nearly certain Rossi's ecat worked as claimed. And from the copious discussions on-line, the esowatch web site, and a little later, Krivit's detailed compendium, it has been clear from immediately after the Jan 2011 demonstration, that Rossi has never delivered evidence for nuclear reactions -- that the reported observations could be explained and understood without invoking nuclear reactions. And now you and Rothwell have joined the skeptics in making this argument.

At least Rothwell is man enough to admit he was wrong. In contrast, you desperately try to make excuses by claiming the lack of context, but it doesn't wash.

The Rossi episode is severely damaging to the credibility of cold fusion. Most advocates demonstrated sympathy for Rossi's claims, and many were adamantly certain he was legit. Rothwell's statement is not isolated. And similar certainty was expressed by the likes of Roberson on vortex, and alainco, and others. And it wasn't just internet participants, but McKubre and Storms, and to a lesser extent Hagelstein were also sympathetic. Only a few advocates (like Krivit, who took 5 months to see the light, and Ahern, and you (Lomax) some of the time) expressed skepticism of Rossi's claims.

It shows that most cold fusion believers are willing to accept claims of cold fusion with what they now admit was inadequate evidence. It demonstrates a gullibility, and a vulnerability to wishful thinking. The fall of Defkalion already showed this, and Rossi's recent troubles show it even more. Rossi still has his supporters of course, and whether he will fall as far as Defkalion has remains to be seen. If Brillouin falls, that will damage the field even more, but I suspect they will be able to carry on indefinitely in the manner of BLP. Certainly, it is not conceivable that cold fusion itself will ever be proved impossible, so you are likely to go your grave clinging to the belief that it's real, but with most of the world ignoring it as it does other pseudosciences.

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Jed wasn't being careful in it, something that I argued with him about at the time.

... even while you yourself were not always cautious, as the above quotation shows...

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Nothing from Rossi was "proof" because it was not verifiable. It was all managed demonstration. This got more and more obvious as time went on.

Of course verifiability is important, but in Rossi's case, especially the 2011 demonstrations, the reported and photographed evidence itself failed to constitute evidence, because it could all be plausibly explained without invoking nuclear reactions.

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Pure ad hominem.

You appear to be unclear on the concept of ad hominem. Ad hominem is when you call me a troll, or an enemy of humanity, or a lying sack of shit. That sort of thing. Pointing out that Rothwell and you were at some earlier time certain (or nearly certain) of Rossi's legitimacy says something about your judgement, which is relevant to those who evaluate your judgement about other aspects of the same field.

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Cude trots out the statement, insisting that "according to your statement, skepticism of the whole field is justified."

This is simple logic. It's a conditional statement, but you omitted part of the condition (the context, don't you know). "If skepticism of Rossi is justified, then according to your statement [that Rossi has given out *far* more proof than any previous cold fusion researcher], then skepticism of the whole field is justified."

So, now that skepticism of Rossi is justified according to you and Rothwell, the only way skepticism of the field is not justified, is to recant the statement, which is what Rothwell has done.

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So, after Jed admits his error, Cude comes back:

Ah yes, thanks for catching that error. Should be "your". See, Rothwell. Like you, I admit when I'm wrong.

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The position here is obvious: if a real person ever makes a mistake, they are to be nailed to it for the rest of their life, they will never again be credible.

You're exaggerating. It's always possible to earn back credibility. But you have to admit that if Rossi or Brillouin or any other claimant of cold fusion were proven beyond doubt to be right, that the credibility of every skeptic would take a hit. I'm nearly certain that won't happen, but if it were to, I'd be delighted to admit my folly and benefit from a new clean and abundant source of energy. The same is true of perpetual motion machines. I nearly certain they will not be proven, but I'd celebrate if they were, and humbly admit my mistaken skepticism.

joshua cude:

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Certainly, it is not conceivable that cold fusion itself will ever be proved impossible, so you are likely to go your grave clinging to the belief that it's real, but with most of the world ignoring it as it does other pseudosciences.

You are lazy. You don't keep up with current research. When will you discredit the work of Holmlid? I continue to wait.

Quote from axil

joshua cude: Quote: “Certainly, it is not conceivable that cold fusion itself will ever be proved impossible, so you are likely to go your grave clinging to the belief that it's real, but with most of the world ignoring it as it does other pseudosciences"

You are lazy. You don't keep up with current research. When will you discredit the work of Holmlid? I continue to wait.

You are right. I *am* lazy.

Alan - The Gotcha Games ended at 5 zulu. IH has stopped research on Rossi's NiH line - it didn't work after years of trying. If a promising NiH track is created by an IH researcher or becomes available thru others for characterization, verification and replication then we have the money, the labs, the engineers and would be all ears as long as there is no scamasaurus past. We're done with those.

Dewey

Quote from Dewey Weaver

Alan - The Gotcha Games ended at 5 zulu. IH has stopped research on Rossi's NiH line - it didn't work after years of trying. If a promising NiH track is created by an IH researcher or becomes available thru others for characterization, verification and replication then we have the money, the labs, the engineers and would be all ears as long as there is no scamasaurus past. We're done with those.

So can we take from that, that IH see a potential future in LENR but not in Rossi?

Best regards
Frank

Dewey Weaver said : Alan - The Gotcha Games ended at 5 Zulu..."

Y'all. This is so information-dense but somehow the meaning eludes tarheels like me.

Hurry up please with that redbook of Deweyism translated to plain English

Quote from Dewey Weaver

If a promising NiH track is created by an IH researcher or becomes available thru others for characterization, verification and replication then we have the money, the labs, the engineers and would be all ears as long as there is no scamasaurus past. We're done with those.

Does that mean you will provide your labs and engineers to further Brillouin's efforts?

IHFB - getting your news from the Daily Planet / thenewflame is not helping your ability to think clearly. IH has a small investment in Brillouin. The engineers of the two companies have never had a conversation with each other. The Brillouin folks continue to work hard to have their technology validated with the objective of moving forward to the next phase of their development plan. I believe that they continue to make progress and we'd love to see them succeed in a big way.

Quote from Dewey Weaver

IHFB - getting your news from the Daily Planet / thenewflame is not helping your ability to think clearly. IH has a small investment in Brillouin. The engineers of the two companies have never had a conversation with each other. The Brillouin folks continue to work hard to have their technology validated with the objective of moving forward to the next phase of their development plan. I believe that they continue to make progress and we'd love to see them succeed in a big way.

I think it was a fair question and didn't warrant a snarky remark. As far as I know, Brillouin's tech has been validated by SRI. They at least state as much on their website. As an investor, IH has the right to inspect their books, records, and internal reports. Has IH inspected the verification from SRI? And if not, why?

IHFB,
PLEASE don't take this as snarky, not my intent, but after watching phenomenon like the Rossi effect over the years,
I don't believe anything unless I see it with my own eyes and even then I'm not too sure.
SRI also validated the guy who could bend spoons via telekinesis.

people have a bad habit of turning opinions into religion

Quote from Mike Wryley

IHFB,
PLEASE don't take this as snarky, not my intent, but after watching phenomenon like the Rossi effect over the years,
I don't believe anything unless I see it with my own eyes and even then I'm not too sure.
SRI also validated the guy who could bend spoons via telekinesis.

people have a bad habit of turning opinions into religion

Non-answers are not much appreciated, at least by me. Does that mean you have not seen with your own eyes the SRI verification report? (I can only assume that there is one given the precise COP values claimed.) And even if you have seen it, you wouldn't believe it? I can appreciate that second bit, as a healthy skepticism is called for in the LENR+ field (albeit not pseudo-skepticism), but can you address my first question?

Dewey

Quote from Dewey Weaver

getting your news from the Daily Planet

Would that be Planet D'eaver?

Best regards
Frank

IHFB - I've seen a letter from SRI that is lukewarm at best and advises that additional testing / research are needed. I don't think that any letters have been issued since. The reason we are discussing this is because Rossi accused IH and Brillouin of colluding and stealing his IP which is a complete fabrication from his twisted imagination.

Frank - I thought you vowed to never read my postings again. I'm very disappointed in your inability to keep your word.

You're a huge part of the noise problem on this forum.

Dewey

Quote from Dewey Weaver

Frank - I thought you vowed to never read my postings again. I'm very disappointed in your inability to keep your word.

You're a huge part of the noise problem on this forum.

Who told you that?

Best regards
Frank

Quote from Dewey Weaver

IHFB - I've seen a letter from SRI that is lukewarm at best and advises that additional testing / research are needed. I don't think that any letters have been issued since. The reason we are discussing this is because Rossi accused IH and Brillouin of colluding and stealing his IP which is a complete fabrication from his twisted imagination.

Thanks again for your answer. You do seem to be a bit more open and sincere lately. So is this letter what Brillouin bases their claim on that "SRI independently reviews and confirms the accuracy of the Brillouin Hydrogen Hot Tube (HHT) System January test results that produced a 4.13X Coefficient – January 2015" as stated here: http://brillouinenergy.com/about/milestones/
?

Are you not providing your labs and engineers to Brillouin because of your fear of Rossi's accusations? I guess to put it differently, if there was no current dispute with Rossi, would you be providing your labs and engineers to Brillouin?