QuoteWyttenbach, it's obvious that the limo passengers would be boiled alive.
Wow.
So in this interminable heat argument: the Rossi-supporting faction are trying to find some reductio ad absurdum argument to say 1MW is not a lot of heating?
I admire the enterprize, but is it really necessary? Does your pro-Rossi case fall down unless 1MW is just like a few electric heaters (actually it is just like 300 electric heaters on full blast)?
Anyway - the point is that Rossi (or the "customer") would somehow have to get rid of 1 MW and apart from vague fantasies about hitherto unknown, highly efficient endothermic processes, large fans which can't be seen on any picture taken at the site (including at least equally large inlets for fresh air) and cooling with a high capacity stream of drinking water which then goes down the drain (wasn't there supposed to be a cost advantage for the customer?) or a weird combination of these ideas, I haven't heard anything that sounds even half-way plausible. It is one of those wonders one just has to accept when believing in Rossi, I guess.
Some of that sweat may have been from fear and adrenaline.
The car was starting to try to fishtail in the rollers, with two technicians sitting on the trunk and we never did get it to full throttle.
It was shut down before someone got killed.
@pm: I like that!
What people usually forget, is the Doral total size of the "appartment was about 600m2 and possibly it was 8 meters high which gives about 5000m3. The recomended heating dimension for an unisolated room is 150Watts/m2. but the building was somewhat isolated and Florida is never below 0 for a longer period. Thus the maximum heating required would have been around 100kW. (Winter.. time!!!)
Thus with 100kWh in summer, all doors must have been open... except they dumped the heat...what is the only working solution for the customer area. (which took about 400m2)
Quoteall doors must have been open
And you'd have to have extremely favourable wind conditions - blowing in at one end and out the other at exactly the right speed and exactly the right temperature 24 by 7. Coolant return temperature for the e-cat was stable at about 60 C, right?
Cooling with water that goes down the drain is possible, but expensive, I figure over $5000 per month for water and sewer bill. (And one would not want to put lots of water close to boiling down the drain, it can damage pipes and may be illegal, I'm not sure. Why someone would do this rather than set up major air ventilation is beyond me. (By the way, one pays the sewer bill based on water consumption, so evap cooling, blowing out humid air, would still incur that full cost. And would be likely to create a condensation plume, very visible.
Jed, 600 BHP @ .25 efficiency = 450 kW mechanical, 1350 kW heat. If one third of the heat is sent to the radiator, that means 445 kW. If the engine is producing 600 BHP, the radiator is being cooled by a >150mph stream of air. What's to doubt?
Actually, that is wrong because the radiator shown here is not from a 600 HP Mack truck. It is a lot smaller than that. I just picked 600 HP because that is the largest truck around. I cannot find much information on truck radiators. I think most semi-trucks are around 300 HP.
I am sure this is a truck radiator, not one for a car. My guess is that this is for a large pickup truck or something. Here is a sami-truck radiator with a person shown for scale. The one in Rossi's lab is smaller:
There are many of images of radiators and information about them. Someone can probably figure out the capacity of this radiator. I am guessing ~50 kW, about twice as much as they need. That would be conservative.
@JedRothwell,
I doubt that radiator in the photo above is for semi tractor. The connections are all wrong, and is way too big.
It looks like an industrial heat exchanger.
Here are some radiators for a Freightliner: http://www.cgj.com/store/categ…ghtliner-truck-radiators/
Cooling with water that goes down the drain is possible, but expensive, I figure over $5000 per month for water and sewer bill. (And one would not want to put lots of water close to boiling down the drain,
I think it is not possible, for the following reasons.
In Florida you are not allowed flush water hotter than 80°C. Many pipes nowadays are PVC and that is the upper limit for temperature. See:
http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/PDF/2001 Florida Codes/Plumbing/Chapter 7_Sanitary Drainage.pdf
1 MW is 1 MJ/s = 239,000 calories/s. 80°C - 20°C = 60°C. 239,000 calories / 60°C = 3,983 g/s = 239 L/min (61 gallons). This probably exceeds the capacity of the entire building. I believe commercial buildings of this size in Florida have 2 inch water service pipes which cannot supply this much. This building has 8 suits, meaning 8 to 16 toilets can flush. 1 toilet takes 2.2 gallons per minute. This calls for 35 gallons/min, and I am sure that if you flush 16 of them in a building of this size simultaneously it would take longer than normal for them to refill. Flow rates are shown here:
http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/PDF/2010 Florida Codes/Plumbing/Chapter 6 - Water Supply and Distribution.pdf
Peter Gluck has suggested that the problem can be fixed with a series of heat exchangers. I do not see why this would be better than a single heat exchanger capable of cooling the main loop. The only practical way to actually cool this with water would be with a 1 MW capacity watercooled chiller. Here is a 394 kW unit. You need 3 of these:
http://www.airedale.com/web/Pr…ter-Cooled-AC-Chiller.htm
This is 1 m high x 1 m x 1.9 m. You need 3. Someone would see them!
As I said, this would not work because you cannot get this much water in a building of this size. A factory located by a river or with much greater water service, or a cooling pond, could use these things.
I doubt that radiator in the photo above is for semi tractor. The connections are all wrong, and is way too big.
It looks like an industrial heat exchanger.
I should have listed the source. It is from a place in Florida that mainly deals in truck radiators:
http://www.duralite-radiator.com/
QuoteIndustrial | Commercial | AutomotiveTrust the specialists of Duralite Radiator to provide expert radiator repairs and services on any type of car, light truck, semi truck, or construction equipment. With free pickup and delivery to local clients and nationwide shipping available, our trusted specialists take pride in providing hometown service whether you are on the road, live down the road, or are across the country.
The other photo on that page shows what looks like an industrial radiator to me. It is much bigger. The form of the radiator in the pickup truck makes me think it is from a semi-truck, but who knows. I looked up large pickup truck radiators and I think they are about the size of Rossi's radiator.
@JedRothwell,
I used to work on semi tractors. The radiators have a fairly small footprint. 4 x 4 feet at most. They are rather thick, however.
They also use rather large oil coolers, since they a have lot of oil in the engine. Typically around 40 L.
Rossi's radiator looks more like a condenser.
I agree that the picture most likely doesn't show a truck radiator - way too big plus the connections at the sides wouldn't make any sense in a truck. Size and weight of a radiator usually don't matter that much in stationary applications. The bigger the better because you need less air flow for the same effect. With cars and trucks it is a different matter. Take the Bugatti Veyron as an example. Its engine produces up to 1,000 HP while the sum of all front surfaces of all radiators is less than a square meter. That works (sort of) because it only needs to produce that amount of power when the air flows through them is a little less than 250 mph or in much shorter bursts during acceleration.
Cooling with water that goes down the drain is possible, but expensive, I figure over $5000 per month for water and sewer bill.
That isn't much in the overall cost of the test.
(And one would not want to put lots of water close to boiling down the drain, it can damage pipes and may be illegal, I'm not sure.
If it is illegal, I better not take any more hot showers and baths, and maybe avoid the hot cycle on my dishwasher and clothes washer.
Why someone would do this rather than set up major air ventilation is beyond me.
It could have been part of the process. Rossi claims water cooling was involved.
(By the way, one pays the sewer bill based on water consumption, so evap cooling, blowing out humid air, would still incur that full cost. And would be likely to create a condensation plume, very visible.
According to Jed, no heat came out of the building. Although I find that hard to believe, my guess is that the excess heat went down the drain.
@jed, my mistake, I assumed the truck you were talking about was a 600 bhp tuned "super chevy" based on your link, not a Mack semi tractor. The Mack isn't going to be travelling at 150mph that's for 'shuuuure'.
I'm pretty sure that radiator isn't out of a road vehicle though. Maybe it's off some kind of special purpose slow moving tug? And that flanged connection is also a bit weird... Suggests an odd use.
If it is illegal, I better not take any more hot showers and baths, and maybe avoid the hot cycle on my dishwasher and clothes washer.
As I noted, it is illegal to dump water at a temperature above 60°C. (I said 80°C but it says 60°C.) See:
http://codes.iccsafe.org/app/book/content/PDF/2001 Florida Codes/Plumbing/Chapter 7_Sanitary Drainage.pdf
1 MW is 1 MJ/s = 239,000 calories/s. 80°C - 20°C = 60°C. 239,000 calories / 60°C = 3,983 g/s = 239 L/min (61 gallons). This probably exceeds the capacity of the entire building.
Oops. I got this wrong. The limit is 60°C not 80°C. So you can raise the water temperature at most 40°C.
239,000 calories / 40°C = 5,975 g/s = 359 L/min (95 gallons).
According to Jed, no heat came out of the building. Although I find that hard to believe, my guess is that the excess heat went down the drain.
As I said, it could not have gone down the drain. You cannot get that much water into this building. The water service does not allow that much. Here is what you can do: you can install two of these units outside the building to cool the thing by air:
http://www.airedale.com/web/Pr…-Free-Cooling-Chiller.htm
I think you need two of these, both the size of a truck. Some interesting points arise:
1. This equipment is not invisible. A person visiting Rossi would see it, and hear it.
2. Rossi would have to have something like this because he claims the reactor produced 1 MW every day, 24/7, even on days when it was turned off. Whatever the customer's magical endothermic machine, was surely it was turned off at times. When it was off, he needed a way to dump the heat.
3. Rossi claimed he could not show the customer's magical endothermic machine because it had IP in it. This is nonsense, because you cannot read IP by looking at a machine. Be that as it may, there is no conceivable reason why Rossi would want to hide the gigantic chiller outside the building. On the contrary, this would prove that he really is producing 1 MW, so he would want to show it off.
That would apply to water cooling as well, if it were possible. Why would he want to hide the water cooling equipment?
Needless to say, there is no such machine outside the facility. There are also no restaurant or factory size vents on the roof. These are roughly as tall as a person, and bigger than a person, so you could not miss seeing them.
@Jed
That assumes all heat is removed by the water. Did IH check the water meter over time? If not, why not?
As a note to the constructors here: If one wants to handle hot water (that is up to say 90 degrees C, (180 to 200 F) with appropriate pressure deratings-- and one needs a solvent-welded plastic system (yecch! dioxane, tetrahydrofuran, methyl ethyl ketone!), then CPVC has long often been used. The temperature tolerance is far higher than PVC. But, plumbing informants recently tell me that CPVC has a habit of failing, in spite of its temperature rating. It certainly cannot tolerate the presence of organics (oils, solvent etc). Much preferred recently has been PEX and more specifically Wirsbo as a brand of said cross-linked polyethylene. Connections are remarkably simple and durable in the Wirsbo system utilizing the expansion tolerance and the polymer's memory return. Tolerance to freezing is exceptional due to the same expansion tolerance.
@Jed
That assumes all heat is removed by the water. Did IH check the water meter over time? If not, why not?
I have no idea if they checked the water meter. However, these "why not" questions after the fact ignore the process that people go through coming to understand what is going on. They would not have check the water meter because the idea of cooling massively with water did not occur to them.
Why didn't Kullander and Essen check the overflow water om 2011? In hindsight it was dumb, but that's what we mean by 20-20 hindsight. It doesn't necessarily do any good at the time.
So they made a mistake. Human. I do not think for a moment that there was any sinister reason, unless one appears that is plausible.
So they made a mistake. Human. I do not think for a moment that there was any sinister reason, unless one appears that is plausible.
I agree. It may have been a mistake. But I'd like Jed to answer, since he seems pretty tight with IH. If Jed doesn't currently know, perhaps he could ask and find out. Water meter readings: such a simple thing could tell us so much.
