Rossi hasn't got anything done, it seems, indeed.
Industrial Heat Amends Answer to Rossi’s Complaint on Aug 11th
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I get the feeling that we have some amateurs speculating about the heat on this forum. We also have some questionable information that IH monitored heat output from the building 24/7 for 9 months, and said there was none. Too many unknowns, frankly. While the heat arguments seem persuasive, I could do with some expert opinion and information. Hopefully we'll have that at the trial.
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We also have some questionable information that IH monitored heat output from the building 24/7 for 9 months, and said there was none.
No one said that as far as I know. There would be no need to monitory it 24/7. One hour during the time when Rossi claims the device is producing 1 MW would suffice.Too many unknowns, frankly.
Nonsense. There are no "unknowns" here. Measuring 1 MW of heat with conventional HVAC methods is easy to do. There is not the slightest chance you would confuse 20 kW with 1 MW. There is no chance anyone could hide 1 MW or make it magically disappear with endothermic chemistry.If there were even 100 kW, it would be impossible to hide, and I.H. could confirm it easily. Instead, they confirmed there is no excess heat at all.
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Nonsense. There are no "unknowns" here.
Please Jed, can you give me a break? There are always unknowns, and especially in connection with this affair.
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One hour during the time when Rossi claims the device is producing 1 MW would suffice.
That sounds like some serious sleuthing.
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One hour during the time when Rossi claims the device is producing 1 MW would suffice.
That sounds like some serious sleuthing.
No, it is trivial. Anyone could accomplish it with things like IR cameras. You can do a more careful job with various HVAC instruments, but anyone can easily detect 1 MW, or rule it out. -
Please Jed, can you give me a break? There are always unknowns, and especially in connection with this affair.
More nonsense. There cannot be unknowns regarding the presence or absence of 1 MW of heat. That is a tremendous amount of heat. It can be detected with absolute certainty using a wide variety of instruments, techniques and method of observation. The physical layout of the warehouse makes it impossible that such a heat release occurred. I am sure that any HVAC engineer will testify to that.This is not open to debate. Anyone who thinks you can "hide" this heat with an endothermic process, or with "heat exchangers" (as Peter Gluck now asserts) does not understand the conservation of energy. Such statements are grotesque nonsense. If Rossi makes these claims in court, any physicist or engineer will testify that he is spouting nonsense.
It is possible 20 kW were input and 30 kW output, but other tests proved that also did not happen.
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THHuxley wrote:
Where was that comment?QuoteSince that test began around 18 months ago, that suggests that IH still believed in 2015 - certainly in early 2015. Darden's 'don't mention Rossi' speech at ICCF 19 was in March 2015. It certainly seems that he was being at least cautious by then. I find it hard to believe that these 'deficiencies' were either noticed so quickly , or are the real reason they changed their opinion - though obviously it suits the court case to say so. And they still had a certain amount of faith otherwise they would not have bothered dragging Woodford's team to Miami twice. So something else happened. I wonder what it was?
I have not seen any reliable and full chronology of the history here. Woodford, however, we understand, was investigating LENR for a long time, several years. Anyone serious about that who knew about the Doral test would want to see it, and they would have known about it.And maybe more than once. What happens with one visit is that then, afterwards, you think of all the things you did not look at the first time.
I think that anyone on their toes would have noticed that, hey, the room isn't terribly hot! But it might not have hit them immediately. Somehow the Lugano professors overlooked that they didn't need sunglasses to look at the thing. It did not occur to Kullander and Essen to check the drain for overflow water.
This is hilarious, actually. What was the value of a megawatt test? This is not an efficient way to test reliability. It really proves little in an engineering sense. But it is hard to hide a megawatt! That was, I think, the idea. So what did Rossi do with this installation?
He hid a megawatt. If he actually generated a megawatt, he also figured out how to hide it.
In any case, I doubt that being "dragged to Doral" was what happened with the Woodford team.
IH definitely knew that something was off with Rossi before the Doral installation. Basically, they couldn't get devices to work. They could not confirm the Lugano results. Meanwhile the 1 MW plant was going through transformations. The original had problems, so ... the 6-cylinder unit, the engineering becoming more polished and sophisticated. And then the Tigers or whatever was the alleged primary power source in Doral.
They have not said it specifically, but my sense is that they attempted to see heat from units of the 1 MW plant delivered to them in August, 2013, and failed. That would, then, create an impression that Penon was a fraud. He tests it a Ferrara, it's fine, they test it in North Carolina and it doesn't work. Rossi's story of IH delay is likely another smokescreen, Rossi was not willing to run the GPT at Raleigh (and essentially admitted that in 2014).
So by mid 2014, they were fried, They did not stop trying to get devices to work, but Rossi pitched the Doral power installation to them, they could make money right off by selling power to his customer, who obviously trusted him. Why not? And then they could watch what happened.
One of the IH lines of thinking was that Rossi devices worked, but with a secret that Rossi had withheld. In spite of this being a violation of the Agreement, I suspect that Rossi wants this story to be in the air, because, then, he can continue to sell the technology with a version of what he told IH about the Hydro Fusion test.
"Heh! Heh1 I made this masterpiece, because I really prefer to do business with you, not those snakes."
There is no way, though, that, by this time,IH would have consented to the Doral installation as the Guaranteed Performance Test. With what they knew by then, that would have been suicidal. No, they played along with Rossi, letting him make and run the installation, hoping to maybe get some useful data out of it. Hence their problem with Fabiani for not making a complete report.
To understand IH, it is necessary to understand that they were hedging. They would have a preponderance-of-the-evidence idea or story, but then backups, in case that was wrong. The big backup is the License.
My fun idea. When the smoke clears, IH offers the License in an eBay auction. So Planet Rossi, if it wants to continue to Believe, can buy it. I wonder what it would go for?
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Where was that comment?
In the revised reply they say that they would not have allowed Rossi to do the test if they had not believed there was a real customer based on what Rossi said. (Sorry - I have not got the PDF in front of me to quote)
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Abd. I would point out that you do not need sunglasses to look at an Amumina tube at 1600C. It's fairly bright yellow, but not painfully bright. Been there, seen it.
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Looks like Nevanlinna @ Cobraf might have found the radiator. It is behind Fabiani, outside the container, and can be seen nicely in my Doors picture.
Maybe in the hallway in the "new" Doral photo also. I'm not sure about that one, but I haven't looked hard yet at it.It's currently on page 4 here: http://www.cobraf.com/forum/topic.php?topic_id=5747
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That does look like a radiator. It looks like one used in a large truck.
A large Mack Truck produces 605 HP. That's 451 kW. The waste heat would be on the order of 1 MW I suppose, so perhaps something like this could radiate 1 MW. However, if it were doing that, you would know it! You can't hide that kind of heat. If there were any object in the room radiating that much heat, people would know it for sure, before being cooked.
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The physical layout of the warehouse makes it impossible that such a heat release occurred.
But yet, IH went along with the test, at least initially?
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The waste heat would be on the order of 1 MW I suppose, so perhaps something like this could radiate 1 MW.
I agree with you that a 450kW truck engine would produce about 1MW of waste heat, but don't overlook the fact that the radiator only handles a modest part of that. The biggest heat loss is probably via the Exhaust gases - thousands of litres of 300-400C gas per minute (say 10 litre engine swept volume x several thousands of rpm) takes away an awful lot of heat. Add in the direct losses from the engine surfaces and the effect of the turbo intercooler radiator and the oil-cooler radiator I doubt that the truck radiator proper ever sees more than 200kW - when producing full power and climbing a grade in a lower gear.
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Well, following that site along, there are photos of the radiators used in Ferrara. I haven't confirmed them, but I think I have seen those before.
(Matching pink stucco to Doral warehouse pink, too).The funny thing is, I stared at that "table" for a while, trying to figure out what was on it, and reading box labels (Schneider electric, Office Depot..etc.)
I was thinking that it almost looked like a big sewing machine... -
But yet, IH went along with the test, at least initially?
In their Answer, IH categorically deny that a "test," i.e., the GPT, was started. They report understanding that power was being sold to a customer.If true, I suppose when Penon started sending in reports to IH in the role of ERV their hackles must have stood on end, and perhaps they consulted their lawyers on what they should do. Perhaps they were advised that the reports were harmless outside of the context of a renegotiation of the GPT and to not make a fuss at that point. All speculation on my part, to be sure.
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In their Answer, IH categorically deny that a "test," i.e., the GPT, was started. They report understanding that power was being sold to a customer.I think to better understand the arrangement, we need access to the agreement between IH and Penon. There has been reference to it, but we have not seen it (yet).
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I think to better understand the arrangement, we need access to the agreement between IH and Penon. There has been reference to it, but we have not seen it (yet).
I don't know if there was an agreement for the GPT beyond what was mentioned in the License Agreement and the Second Amendment. Section 5 in the License Agreement was of course void, because the test would not have ended in time to meet the 400 day requirement, so only the Second Amendment, or some other document, or perhaps some common law doctrine like estoppel, could have saved it. IH argue that the Second Amendment wasn't applicable, both because of the missing signatures but also because the Second Amendment discusses the Six Cylinder Unit rather than the 1MW Plant, and the Six Cylinder Unit was left in North Carolina.IH and Rossi did sign terms for his relocating to Florida, shown in Exhibit 17. That term sheet discusses the 1 MW plant and the customer (JMC), but no mention is made of the Guaranteed Performance Test. I suppose it is possible that an additional document will turn up that was the result of a renegotiation between Rossi and IH that mentions Florida, the 1MW unit, Penon as the ERV and so on. Presumably Rossi would have made such a document available in an amendment to the Complaint; if he does not produce such a renegotiation of the terms of the GPT, I'm doubtful that the court will be persuaded that there was a GPT.
An interesting additional detail that I wasn't aware of until a day or two ago: in all of the discussion of the GPT in both the License Agreement and the Second Amendment, no mention is made of there needing to be a customer in order for it to commence. In addition, in Exhibit 16, Rossi acknowledges that IH had made space available for the 1 MW Plant in Raleigh, perhaps for the GPT: "Your proposal to put the plant in a factory owned by yourself at least until recently is dramatically less convincing." But in that email, where he was making a case for relocating to Florida, he does not discuss the GPT and only argues that having a real customer buying power from the plant would be of great value.
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I note for reference that Rossi did not use the term "ERV" on JoNP until Sept 10, 2015.
And then when he did mention it, it was used 5 times in the same post."The ERV data have not to be compared to any other data and will be the only one deemed valid, independently from any other data recorded by anybody. The ERV delivers periodically reports about the data collected in the due period. Obviously we compare our data with the data communicated by the ERV. I can say that, so far, the data recorded from us are substantially consistent with the data of the ERV and that the differences are within the error margin of the instrumentation. The Customer makes independently his measurements, because he is not interested to the ERV, he just wants to measure how much thermal energy we deliver ( he just reads his gauges) and at the end of each month he sends us a report with the indication of how many kWh have been delivered. Also in this case, the data so far are reasonably consistent, with small differences that can be attributable to the error margin of the instrumentation."
- JoNP September 10, 2015 -
IH Fanboy wrote:
But yet, IH went along with the test, at least initially?In their Answer, IH categorically deny that a "test," i.e., the GPT, was started. They report understanding that power was being sold to a customer.
If true, I suppose when Penon started sending in reports to IH in the role of ERV their hackles must have stood on end, and perhaps they consulted their lawyers on what they should do. Perhaps they were advised that the reports were harmless outside of the context of a renegotiation of the GPT and to not make a fuss at that point. All speculation on my part, to be sure.
Yes, speculation, but reasonable and consistent with evidence and an expectation that IH was not a collection of total dodos.If they were total dodos, all bets are off.
However, if Rossi had an agreement from them, one might think he would have alleged it.
What appears from what we have is that Rossi was trying to bulldoze his way through to an $89 million prize. If he really had a solid technology, this makes no sense; i.e. if he really had the technology, he would have to be business-insane. You simply don't treat people this way in business unless you hold all the cards and even then it is dangerous as hell.
